coronavirus

[morekaos]

This won't work here...

...the technologically intrusive surveillance-state aspects of Taiwan?s response?notably, its real-time integration of national health care databases with customs and travel records and its use of government-issued cell phones to remotely monitor quarantine orders?we keep seeing the culturally embedded assumption that East Asian-style state social control just won?t fly in the good old, individualist, government-wary, freedom-loving United States.

A closer look reveals that Taiwan?s success containing Covid-19 can be explained by the unique historical contingencies that have shaped this young nation. Taiwan?s self-confidence and collective solidarity trace back to its triumphal self-liberation from its own authoritarian past, its ability to thrive in the shadow of a massive, hostile neighbor that refuses to recognize its right to chart its own path, and its track record of learning from existential threats.

There is no doubt that in January it would have been difficult for the US to duplicate Taiwan?s containment strategy, but that?s not because Americans are inherently more ornery than Taiwanese. It?s because the United States has a miserable record when it comes to learning from its own mistakes and suffers from a debilitating lack of faith in the notion that the government can solve problems?something that dates at least as far back as the moment in 1986 when Ronald Reagan said, ?The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: ?I?m from the government and I?m here to help.?? The Taiwan-US comparison is the opposite of a clash of civilizations; instead, it?s a deathly showdown between competence and incompetence.

https://www.wired.com/story/taiwan-is-beating-the-coronavirus-can-the-us-do-the-same/

 

[usctrojancpa]

I am all for calling out hypocritical Dems for not adhering to guidelines...are the GOP supporters...

Call them all out for not adhering to guidelines.
Call them all out for hypocrisy.

Yeah, all these politicians are damn hypocrites.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

This won't work here...

You understand that Taiwan learned lessons from 2003 SARS and implemented those contingency plans in a time of crisis...like I don't know a global pandemic? 

It's not like Taiwanese carry around government issued phones or mandated apps in non-pandemic times. 

That's why it's called an emergency...like people evacuated their homes when there is an emergency but otherwise no. 

This concept that the government does not work comes from people who attack the government, cripple the government, and then blame it when it doesn't work.  Government worked great in the 1930s during the Depression, during WW2, after WW2 and post-war boom, and helped educated a whole generation of people between 1940s and 1970s. 

Americans do a lot of stupid things for the name of patriotism...somehow telling them to wear a mask and socially distance are not achievable.

BTW:  Australia and New Zealand also did just fine...but I guess the East Asian mentality exist there as well.

 

[eyephone]

I am all for calling out hypocritical Dems for not adhering to guidelines...are the GOP supporters...

Call them all out for not adhering to guidelines.
Call them all out for hypocrisy.

Yeah, all these politicians are damn hypocrites.

This could of been solved from the beginning. But Trump has to hide the info from the public.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I am all for calling out hypocritical Dems for not adhering to guidelines...are the GOP supporters...

Call them all out for not adhering to guidelines.
Call them all out for hypocrisy.

Yeah, all these politicians are damn hypocrites.

For sure...but it's probably a matter of them being insulated from reality literally and figuratively.  Does not excuse them from being hypocrites and nothing to do with whether the guidelines are proper or not.

I don't adhere to the guidelines because Gavin Newsome tells me to...just like I don't pretend COVID doesn't exist because Trump said it's fine.  Scientists, public health officials, healthcare workers, and examples from overseas show that the guidelines are necessary and proper.

 

[eyephone]

This won't work here...

You understand that Taiwan learned lessons from 2003 SARS and implemented those contingency plans in a time of crisis...like I don't know a global pandemic? 

It's not like Taiwanese carry around government issued phones or mandated apps in non-pandemic times. 

That's why it's called an emergency...like people evacuated their homes when there is an emergency but otherwise no. 

This concept that the government does not work comes from people who attack the government, cripple the government, and then blame it when it doesn't work.  Government worked great in the 1930s during the Depression, during WW2, after WW2 and post-war boom, and helped educated a whole generation of people between 1940s and 1970s. 

Americans do a lot of stupid things for the name of patriotism...somehow telling them to wear a mask and socially distance are not achievable.

Btw - this is without a vaccine, no special Asian herbs lol

 

[eyephone]

I am all for calling out hypocritical Dems for not adhering to guidelines...are the GOP supporters...

Call them all out for not adhering to guidelines.
Call them all out for hypocrisy.

Yeah, all these politicians are damn hypocrites.

For sure...but it's probably a matter of them being insulated from reality literally and figuratively.  Does not excuse them from being hypocrites and nothing to do with whether the guidelines are proper or not.

I don't adhere to the guidelines because Gavin Newsome tells me to...just like I don't pretend COVID doesn't exist because Trump said it's fine.  Scientists, public health officials, healthcare workers, and examples from overseas show that the guidelines are necessary and proper.

They are playing the blame game. But who is the ultimately the one to blame? He lied to the public and continued to lie about it. Lied more than Ted. (Wink)

 

[usctrojancpa]

I am all for calling out hypocritical Dems for not adhering to guidelines...are the GOP supporters...

Call them all out for not adhering to guidelines.
Call them all out for hypocrisy.

Yeah, all these politicians are damn hypocrites.

For sure...but it's probably a matter of them being insulated from reality literally and figuratively.  Does not excuse them from being hypocrites and nothing to do with whether the guidelines are proper or not.

I don't adhere to the guidelines because Gavin Newsome tells me to...just like I don't pretend COVID doesn't exist because Trump said it's fine.  Scientists, public health officials, healthcare workers, and examples from overseas show that the guidelines are necessary and proper.

Yeah, I don't need big brothers who talk out of both sides of their mouths to tell me to do the right thing.  My dad who is 71 and my stepdad is 81 making them both high-risk individuals so I will not risk getting sick and passing it along to them. I'm also among many people doing my realtor duties (clients, builder salespeople, inspectors, appraisers, etc) so out of respect to all of them and all the people in their circle I'm always masked up and try to maintain social distancing.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

But hey...tell me how much you need to eat Aunt Sally's turkey:

?We are depressed, disheartened and tired to the bone,? said Alison Johnson, director of critical care at Johnson City Medical Center in Tennessee, adding that she drives to and from work some days in tears.

The number of people in the hospital with COVID-19 in the U.S. has doubled in the past month and set new records every day this week. As of Tuesday, nearly 77,000 were hospitalized with the virus.

n the worsening rural Panhandle, roughly half of the admitted patients in Lubbock?s two main hospitals had COVID-19, and a dozen people with the virus were waiting in the emergency room for beds to open up Tuesday night, said Dr. Ron Cook, the Lubbock County health authority.

?We?re in trouble,? Cook said.

In the Texas border city of El Paso, overwhelmed morgues have begun paying jail inmates $2 an hour to help transport the bodies of virus victims. The crush of patients is forcing the city to send its non-COVID-19 cases to hospitals elsewhere in the state.

More than 5,400 extra medical personnel have been deployed around Texas by the state alone, said Lara Anton, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of State Health Services. And that doesn?t include the help surging into Texas from the military and volunteer organizations.

In Reno, Nevada, Renown Regional Medical Center began moving some coronavirus patients into its parking garage.

Video of the converted garage before it opened to patients showed rows and rows of beds separated by moveable white screens set up on one level of the stark, cavernous garage, each section designated by letters and each bed space marked by a number on the ground. The garage unit currently houses 27 patients but at peak capacity will have enough beds to accommodate more than 1,400, said Dr. Paul Sierzenski, Renown?s chief medical officer for acute care.

In Kansas, hospitals are converting spaces such as chapels and cafeterias for use by COVID-19 patients, said Cindy Samuelson, spokeswoman for the Kansas Hospital Association.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/tired-bone-hospitals-overwhelmed-virus-204727407.html

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Friday night BJs at the marketplace had a line waiting at the door for seating.

That was the restaurant I mentioned in the dining thread. It was also packed and this was on Tuesday Pizookie night at 9pm.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I do agree with morekaos that what works for Taiwan will be very hard to work for the US.

I've said it before... population, demographics, culture, geography, government make it very difficult.

The US is not an island.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I do agree with morekaos that what works for Taiwan will be very hard to work for the US.

I've said it before... population, demographics, culture, geography, government make it very difficult.

The US is not an island.

Hmm...unless you think the issues are coming over from Canada and Mexico...US is basically an island.  It's why the US remained relatively intact after two world wars. 

What about about Africa, Australia, and New Zealand?  South Korea...Japan? 
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Afr...ns-worked-together-to-control-the-coronavirus

Weird that Americans are always say that America can do anything and we are unique but when things happens...it's like "oh no...we can't do that...that's too hard." 

Again...Americans went through 5 years of food, fuel, and metal rationing during WW2 and we completely create new security apparatus after 9/11 in which 3K people died...we have 250K dead but we can't get people to put on a mask?

Is America "exceptional" or not?  If we are "exceptional"...shouldn't we have fewer relating cases/deaths than other countries?  If we are not "exceptional"...isn't pretending we are and refusing to do the right things tantamount to gross negligence?

 

[eyephone]

I do agree with morekaos that what works for Taiwan will be very hard to work for the US.

I've said it before... population, demographics, culture, geography, government make it very difficult.

The US is not an island.

We do not know unless we tried. How much have we spent and loss due to the covid virus? I would say billions to trillions of dollars.

Requiring someone to wear a mask is not a big deal. There was outrage back in the day when the requirement of seatbelts and no smoking in restaurants/airplanes.

 

[zovall]

I think IHO is just getting at the reality of the situation. We can't agree on anything in this country at the moment. Controlling Covid in Taiwan or Singapore or Japan or China is very different than controlling anything in the US.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I do agree with morekaos that what works for Taiwan will be very hard to work for the US.

I've said it before... population, demographics, culture, geography, government make it very difficult.

The US is not an island.

We do not know unless we tried. How much have we spent and loss due to the covid virus? I would say billions to trillions of dollars.

Requiring someone to wear a mask is not a big deal. There was outrage back in the day when the requirement of seatbelts and no smoking in restaurants/airplanes.

We can handle a two-front war involving two of the largest military threats known to humans and we cannot get people to wear masks and social distance.

Why do we refuse as a country to look at our issues and faults and figure out the problems...there were clear solutions to problems but the leadership refused to do anything..when we have spoiled children, we should blame the parents...not the children.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I think IHO is just getting at the reality of the situation. We can't agree on anything in this country at the moment. Controlling Covid in Taiwan or Singapore or Japan or China is very different than controlling anything in the US.

That's a sign of poor leadership...Taiwan has its divisions and issues as well.  Taiwanese politics literally has physical fighting and there is plenty of skepticism toward the government as well. 

But you know what happened, the government took bold action and stood by their scientists and experts and it worked.  People saw that it work and relief happened...why wouldn't trust the government at that point?

Easy example: 

One of the first thing that Taiwan did was to nationalized the production of PPE and sold masks to people at very low prices.  People initially freaked out that they couldn't get masks (there were people banging on doors of mask makers over Chinese New Year Break) but the government stepped in and provide large supplies at low prices.

That was something that Trump could have done from the start and many people did tell him to do that but he wanted to downplay the virus and rely on the private sector.  As a result, people could not get mask easily and lead to hoarding and panic. 

When there is a fire raging and the fire fighters come to your door, do you have a debate about whether there is a fire or whether fire in fact burns down houses? 

This was Taiwan's Health Minister at a press conference regarding the 11th Covid case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBe_sQpnYCI

Do you see anything like that in the US?

 

[morekaos]

I do agree with morekaos that what works for Taiwan will be very hard to work for the US.

I've said it before... population, demographics, culture, geography, government make it very difficult.

The US is not an island.

We do not know unless we tried. How much have we spent and loss due to the covid virus? I would say billions to trillions of dollars.

Requiring someone to wear a mask is not a big deal. There was outrage back in the day when the requirement of seatbelts and no smoking in restaurants/airplanes.

We can handle a two-front war involving two of the largest military threats known to humans and we cannot get people to wear masks and social distance.

Why do we refuse as a country to look at our issues and faults and figure out the problems...there were clear solutions to problems but the leadership refused to do anything..when we have spoiled children, we should blame the parents...not the children.

So what would be your solution if you were all master of time and space?  A massive National lockdown, enforced by local national guards and police? I think under the current BLM/ANTIFA mood of some that that would not go down too well

 

[eyephone]

It is real news that Japan economy is fully opened. Stores, restaurants, bars, and the subway is packed. They do not have a problem with covid. So I guess the masks works. I think quarantine is a key factor that the US will be against. (for visitors) Same with tracing. But we are not at that point yet. Because we are in a sh7hole.

I have seen video that some business in Japan use plexiglass and some use clear thick plastic wrap by the counter. It may look cheap, but I guess it works. The streets looked packed. I would say economy running at 80% or more. (Like nothing happened.)

Same thing with Korea. It looks like normal, but they are wearing masks. The streets are packed and almost all business are OPEN.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

@IC:

Hard to compare past events to today. For 4 years we've been polarized as a nation and with Covid, that just added fuel to the fire.

When Pearl Harbor was attacked, most felt it was okay to get involved... when 9/11 happened, there weren't many political divides on enhancing security... but for some reason, the deadliest pandemic since 1918 has us split on what should be done.

I know what you are saying, but belief systems and politics really get in the way with Covid. I mean, a certain very smart accounting guy I know here (whose name rhymes with dirty) can't even understand the science of flattening the curve and mask protection... so what does that tell you?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

So what would be your solution if you were all master of time and space?  A massive National lockdown, enforced by local national guards and police? I think under the current BLM/ANTIFA mood of some that that would not go down too well

1)  You know that Taiwan never shutdown right?  It just recognized the problem early and start the protocols...quarantine individuals and mandated things like sanitizers and social distancing. 

Have you ever seen something like this in the US?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C69Qfvk4Y9A

2)  You have a public education and cohesive strategy in which you talk about the dangers of COVID and why the measures are needed. 

3)  You have a strong federal responsive in coordination with state and local officials to create a singular and coherent strategy. 

In light of the start of the new semester at the 4,000 elementary, junior high and senior high schools and public kindergartens nationwide on February 25, the Central Epidemic Command Center (CECC) urges all teachers and students to ensure good ventilation in classrooms, properly clean and disinfect school facilities, maintain personal hygiene by washing hands frequently and observing cough etiquette, and stay at home if unwell.

Under close coordination between the Environmental Protection Administration and the Ministry of Education (MOE), local environmental protection departments have been tasked with disinfecting public spaces surrounding schools and public kindergartens and spaces within them which were open to the general public during the winter vacation, such as large hallways, wash basins, restrooms, and playgrounds. These disinfection tasks are scheduled to be completed by February 23.

https://www.cdc.gov.tw/En/Bulletin/Detail/hJ-0sxqj-lY0Af8Gkn2pXw?typeid=158

4)  You provide funding to state and local officials as well as pass direct stimulus to individuals so that they don't feel like they are trapped between working and dealing with a global pandemic.