Cityplace in Santa Ana

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[quote author="fumbling" date=1232412191]After seeing the Cityplace and Barker (L.A.downtown) lofts, I thought it'd be unique and "cool" to live in an unconventional loft, but the problem is developers are selling loft type units at premiums to conventional floorplans when loft living is actually less convenient than traditional townhomes (they have no dividers between rooms, exposed ductwork, etc.). I don't know much about housing history, but seems to me lofts like in NY and SF were originally low priced places converted from industrial use to living space, so loft living was originally cheaper than traditional living just like high rise living was cheaper than SFR living in the city. Somehow developers in the OC decided they'd do things the other way, like making OC high rises more expensive than SFR and making loft living more expensive than townhomes. Although loft living seems kind of unique and interesting, I'm not wanting to pay a premium for it, I'm waiting for the air to go out of the developer balloons and wait for loft/high rise living to be lower than traditional housing like the good old days, or if not, resales ought to settle the matter.</blockquote>


I agree with you. Lofts have become a fancy word for townhouse or apartment with exposed ceilings and cement floors, and you pay a premium for it! Both my husband and I are artists and we initially looked at these lofts as a convenient way to turn the retail space into a gallery. We have looked in Santa Ana, but just not impressed with the layout (some with 3 flights of stairs to get to the loft) and size, along with the high pricetag. I took a trip up to LA to see the Rowan lofts. they did a nice job with the look but again, not sure where "loft" comes in, as they were all 1 level, maybe because it had no dividers from room to room? I believe that is called a Flat. They are having an auction and starting bid is 195,000 for 530 sf, and home owners fees between 400-600, parking for 5 years.



As for occupancy at CityPlace, Its still low. I would say the front lofts are at about 50%, and the ones that are sold seem to be the bigger ones. The smaller narrow ones are actually 12ft across with "a little extra". Maybe if they took two and bring down the middle wall, well you might just have that an "industrial spaced" loft! I would agree, the builder tried to fit too much into too little space. The tandem garage just doesnt fly.
 
The builder is refusing to budge on the price of these lofts, and recently increased the prices on these homes.



They didn't sell during the auction, and they're not selling now. When will he wake up and realize what is going on with the market?
 
[quote author="Shooby" date=1232632596]The builder is refusing to budge on the price of these lofts, and recently increased the prices on these homes.



They didn't sell during the auction, and they're not selling now. When will he wake up and realize what is going on with the market?</blockquote>


When the bridge financing with the bank runs out.
 
[quote author="Shooby" date=1232632596]The builder is refusing to budge on the price of these lofts, and recently increased the prices on these homes.



They didn't sell during the auction, and they're not selling now. When will he wake up and realize what is going on with the market?</blockquote>


I guess that might be good news for me. My wife and I just renewed our apt lease till November and would like to buy a home after the expected 23% price decline. Raising the prices nearly guarantees they won't sell anytime soon...and by anytime soon, I mean until they lower their prices below auction. We considered making an appearance at the auction, but ended up staying a little longer in Vegas that day. Apparently, we didn't miss much.
 
They should try having a "real" auction. You know, one that doesn't have $500,000 starting bids, and is more than just a marketing ploy. They should also try offering <strong>all</strong> the empty/unsold units for sale, instead of slapping sold stickers on everything and trying to get rid of the bad units first. Agreed, the developer is very much in denial, demonstrated by the numerous empty lofts and unfinished townhomes (for almost 2 years now I think).
 
Yeah, while I was talking to the seller, they were saying the builder is content just waiting it out until market prices return to normal.



When my friend gave a lower offer, she said "Allright, I'll present it to him but I'd hate to see you lose a house over this."



That's when I chimed in "I'd hate to see you lose a qualified buyer over these prices".



Anyway, we ended up walking away, and thank goodness because some of these floor plans make you scratch your head and go WTF were they thinking?
 
[quote author="Shooby" date=1232632596]The builder is refusing to budge on the price of these lofts, and recently increased the prices on these homes.



They didn't sell during the auction, and they're not selling now. When will he wake up and realize what is going on with the market?</blockquote>


You have to understand the strength of the Koolaid these guys are drinking. When the project was just starting, they were offering the largest units for a *million* dollars - almost $500/sq. ft. IIRC, in Santa Ana. Even at the peak of the bubble that was insane.
 
Just an update, the seller called back today and said the builder rejected the $5K below sales price offer that we submitted last week.



He can keep his property and lose money on it daily.
 
Many posts here describing the problems with this development have a "serves the builder right" attitude. While developers are easy targets for public vitriol, keep in mind that developers in general develop real estate using other people's money (banks, private equity funds, individual investors, etc). Therefore, when a development fails, it is the investors who are screwed, the developer just moves on and looks for another project to develop and look for new investors for the new project. Remember, not all real estate investors are Wall Street banks and private equity funds, many are individuals, retirees, etc. who have their life savings invested in these faltering developments.
 
[quote author="High Gravity" date=1232760501]Many posts here describing the problems with this development have a "serves the builder right" attitude. While developers are easy targets for public vitriol, keep in mind that developers in general develop real estate using other people's money (banks, private equity funds, individual investors, etc). Therefore, when a development fails, it is the investors who are screwed, the developer just moves on and looks for another project to develop and look for new investors for the new project. Remember, not all real estate investors are Wall Street banks and private equity funds, many are individuals, retirees, etc. who have their life savings invested in these faltering developments.</blockquote>


The elderly and vounerable are not given a hall pass from due dilagence.
 
[quote author="High Gravity" date=1232760501]Many posts here describing the problems with this development have a "serves the builder right" attitude. While developers are easy targets for public vitriol, keep in mind that developers in general develop real estate using other people's money (banks, private equity funds, individual investors, etc). Therefore, when a development fails, it is the investors who are screwed, the developer just moves on and looks for another project to develop and look for new investors for the new project. Remember, not all real estate investors are Wall Street banks and private equity funds, many are individuals, retirees, etc. who have their life savings invested in these faltering developments.</blockquote>


Sounds like they made a bad investment. You know what would make this development an even worse investment? Letting it sit empty.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1232765668][quote author="High Gravity" date=1232760501]Many posts here describing the problems with this development have a "serves the builder right" attitude. While developers are easy targets for public vitriol, keep in mind that developers in general develop real estate using other people's money (banks, private equity funds, individual investors, etc). Therefore, when a development fails, it is the investors who are screwed, the developer just moves on and looks for another project to develop and look for new investors for the new project. Remember, not all real estate investors are Wall Street banks and private equity funds, many are individuals, retirees, etc. who have their life savings invested in these faltering developments.</blockquote>


The elderly and vounerable are not given a hall pass from due dilagence.</blockquote>


Agreed. Its called investment risk.
 
I checked out this place last week. Overall, I like it, but I think it's still over-priced and there are some really big risky downsides to it. I looked at the Courtyards, they're asking $390K for a 2bdrm about 1400-1500SQFT and $355K for a 2bdrm, 1320SQFT. HOA's are low ($160-$180 range), no mello roos, and low taxes (1.1%). BUT, there's a catch. There's no clubhouse and there's no pool. I personally don't care about the clubhouse, but not having a pool I think is a big setback if you try to sell this place later on. Also, it's still a Santa Ana zip code.



What do you guys think is a fair price for either one of the units I mentioned above (2bdrm 1320 SQFT and 2bdrm apx 1450SQFT)? The other area I'm looking at is Ladera, just based on the area, which one do you think has a better upside some few years down the line, Ladera or this place in Santa Ana? It's a nice area and has some nice shops/restaurants around it, but again, it's still Santa Ana.
 
[quote author="Al" date=1233113781]I checked out this place last week. Overall, I like it, but I think it's still over-priced and there are some really big risky downsides to it. I looked at the Courtyards, they're asking $390K for a 2bdrm about 1400-1500SQFT and $355K for a 2bdrm, 1320SQFT. HOA's are low ($160-$180 range), no mello roos, and low taxes (1.1%). BUT, there's a catch. There's no clubhouse and there's no pool. I personally don't care about the clubhouse, but not having a pool I think is a big setback if you try to sell this place later on. Also, it's still a Santa Ana zip code.



What do you guys think is a fair price for either one of the units I mentioned above (2bdrm 1320 SQFT and 2bdrm apx 1450SQFT)? The other area I'm looking at is Ladera, just based on the area, which one do you think has a better upside some few years down the line, Ladera or this place in Santa Ana? It's a nice area and has some nice shops/restaurants around it, but again, it's still Santa Ana.</blockquote>


Still overpriced. You live in Orange County. Hell, you're paying a *premium* to live in Orange County. And you don't think you'll want access to a pool?



Some of the best times in life are chilling at a pool BBQing, bunch of girls in bikinis lounging around, and a beer in hand.



;-)
 
[quote author="26w100k+" date=1233122331]

Still overpriced. You live in Orange County. Hell, you're paying a *premium* to live in Orange County. And you don't think you'll want access to a pool?



Some of the best times in life are chilling at a pool BBQing, bunch of girls in bikinis lounging around, and a beer in hand.



;-)</blockquote>


I think he was saying he cared about the pool, but not the clubhouse. 26, you know we have an ocean nearby, right? Girls in bikinis can be found there as well. ;-P
 
[quote author="Al" date=1233113781]



What do you guys think is a fair price for either one of the units I mentioned above (2bdrm 1320 SQFT and 2bdrm apx 1450SQFT)? The other area I'm looking at is Ladera, just based on the area, which one do you think has a better upside some few years down the line, Ladera or this place in Santa Ana? It's a nice area and has some nice shops/restaurants around it, but again, it's still Santa Ana.</blockquote>


Since we are talking about 2bd, I would have to go with SA. More convenient to jobs and shopping for potential future buyers/renters. (esp. if gas prices go back up, which they will eventually)



If it was larger, more likely for a family with kids, then the issues of schools and saftey comes into play, and Ladera might be a safer long term bet.
 
Thanks for the replies! I went back for a 2nd look and the smaller plan (1320 SQFT) is just too small. The bathrooms are just WAY too small and the 2nd bedroom looks like a cell block. I liked their Plan 6 which is the dual master bedrooms, it's a really nice layout, but $390K is too much. The comps in that area are around $320K-$335K, so even if you throw in an extra $20K-$30K just because it's new, it's still way overpriced. The sales lady knows it too, but I guess the owner is trying to protect the comps within his own development and not piss off owners who paid the full price just a few months ago.
 
[quote author="Al" date=1233368492]Thanks for the replies! I went back for a 2nd look and the smaller plan (1320 SQFT) is just too small. The bathrooms are just WAY too small and the 2nd bedroom looks like a cell block. </blockquote>


Are you talking about Plan 2 of the Courtyards? There is no master bath in that plan. And I agree, the 2nd bedroom will make even a Seattle resident go into depression after living there for a few months. Poorly designed third level, but the kitchen and living room are a plus.



You're right, the sales lady does know these units are overpriced, but it's the builder who is refusing to budge.
 
And to think when they first starting pitching these to our neighborhood, before they were built, they were supposed to sell between 750K-1mil. What a bunch of idiots.
 
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