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I'm just now getting caught up on this thread. Just wanted to give a quick "Thank you" shout out to Trooper for voicing exactly what I have been thinking for months now.
 
Lay off Ten folks. When I read his comments it's like watching myself in my 20s. I grew up in L.A. and matriculated from that little school on Figueroa as well. One must understand that the USC environment breeds misogyny as social success there entails navigating shark infested waters. I lived Ten's lifestyle and more in my youth in the single heavens of Hermosa/Manhattan and later Balboa Peninsula, and would still be there if I didn't happen to score a hot (and VERY patient) "chick" that became my wife. I wouldn't have been able to close the deal if I didn't have the years of practice "up in the club" that Ten is working on. It's all about maintaining a dominant position in the perpetual struggle to gain the upper hand in relationships, not to mention getting it all out when you're young to avoid the "mid life crisis".



Question for those who list priximity to the beach as a reason to love Irvine: Do any of you surf, and if so, where? The only surfing beach close is Newport jetties, and parking on the Peninsula can't be any better than it was 15 years ago. Personally this is why I later moved to South OC, which I found much "beachier" in terms of lifestyle and proximity to good surfing beaches. If I can ever escape the golden handcuffs in the Bay area, I'd move to Dana Point or San Clemente in a heartbeat.



Irvine kicks butt for schools, but is pretty far from accessible surfing beaches.



A joke about Stanford from my youth, verified by many I know who went there: 4 out of 5 women are attractive. The 5th one goes to Stanford.



Incidentally, the paragons of beauty that used to be the USC Song Girls have taken quite a hit to their reputation as avg test scores and admission standards keep rising there each year. This year's batch was positively average looking.



Fight On Ten!
 
<em>One must understand that the USC environment breeds misogyny as social success</em>



Well, I guess that explains it. Prof...aren't you a USC grad?



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny">Definition of misogyny</a>
 
[quote author="GrewUpInIrvine" date=1212359930]I just love that avitar. I keep seeing that guy making your arguments.</blockquote>


lol



For reference, see:



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Cube">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Cube</a>



and:



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Vaseline">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Vaseline</a>



For context, I used to do workouts (foreclosures) on farms and ranches. (see, no_vaseline!) I grew up on one here in California. I really look more like this:



<img src="http://i.treehugger.com/images/2007/5/24/farmer-john-cornfield.jpg" alt="" />



which would just confuse pepole.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1212322420]The winners play a sick game of transfer costing and sticking somebody else with the bill.</blockquote>


It's the game that needs to get changed. Frankly, I look at the Iowa situation with the Kosher farm and see violations for years, hundreds of illegal employees and no arrests in management and no fines.



What a joke. If res ipso loquitur doesn't apply, something must.



I disagree about it being workable it would be done. There's too much money and too many vested interests to do it so far. They're profiteering and lobbying. Lob on the double boogey-man factor of illegal immigration and it's polarization and the near instanteous accusation of racism for anybody raising it and the core of the problem isn't the problem, it's the disinformation.



I've read articles in the LA Times about employers not being able to find qualified people for $35/hr. supervisor jobs in landscaping because it requires english and proof of legal ability to work the Government contact. And they can't connect the dots to the fact that people won't do them because, they are hard, but more importantly, you can make more working in the AC'd comfort of a Mcdonalds compared to the entry level jobs you need to work for years. They point at the Government contract saying our entry is $18, but the all the other no contract jobs are at $5.



The solution isn't in cracking down on the employees, it is in cracking down on the employers.
 
We're going to disagree on this one. You grew up in Irvine and believe some academic nirvana reality, I grew up around these sort of businesses and understand how the real world works. Further, the government knows my reality and is complicit in ignoring the problem. Proof?



In 1985, the INS had 300 border patrol agents deployed between Bakersfield and Chico. By 2001? They had two. Those two went from prision to prision and evaluated next weeks parolees for immigration status. That's right, they only dumped the illegals on the bus. Stay out of jail - get a hall pass to stay in the USA.



I'll give you a list of ag processors in CA if you want, you can go watch the folks coming and going at shift change and tell me the deal in Iowa is isolated. What you'll find is that one kosher plant in Iowa isn't the exception. It's STANDARD. And after fall elections, the INS will stop these 'gotcha' spot raids.



If you want to continue this discussion, IM me and we'll do coffee. I can tell you the story how I nearly got deported in an INS raid in 1985. True story.
 
No_vas, I grew up in Midwest farm country. My first job was baling, loading and stacking hay. I'm sure you know what a midwest barn loft is like in August.



I'm not sure what you think my position is, but it isn't that the Iowa thing is a rarity. I know it's the norm. I don't think it should be tolerated. If we need temporary workers because citizens refuse to do it, then we should give green cards or a guest program for it.



Yes, changing the system is a massive undertaking, but our alternative is to continue tolerating a system where people that try to do the right thing are driving out of business and the winners are those best at passing the buck.
 
N_V_



How the real world works? Exactly, American businesses behave in a most un-American way... completely complicit in the illegal labor they employ. I'd be instituting some severe employer sanctions... but then what happens? The local U.S. rep gets an ear full from his local constitutency... and calls the local INS head honcho and raises all sorts of hell... which trickles down to the front-line INS agent who ends up being denied permission to enforce the law. Total BS... all because we are losing sight of what being American is all about. Idealy, being American is all about the rule of law... but as a society we are losing sight of that in so many ways. =(



And creating a "guest worker program" won't help either (largely because they aren't guests... they are here to stay...you want to talk guest worker program? Try doing it the way that almost every other nation in the world does it)... because the immigration problem is based on (1) corruption & and a lack of opportunity in foreign countries and (2) greed on the part of American business... which means that after we legalize the 12 million people who are here illegally, a new wave of illegal imigrants will come into the country and displace them... its a vicious cycle.
 
No such -



I owe you an apology. I got you confused with grew up. I sincerely thought you were the same poster. I've never stacked hay in a barn before. I have had to buck hay and restack it because the bailer wasn't set up right. We don't have barns in California.



Grew up -



We used to have a guest worker program.



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_Program">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_Program</a>



Here's the most important part:



"While the program was explicitly presented as an ?opportunity? for the people of Mexico to obtain work in the United States, instead it was defined by exploitation of laborers, violation of civil rights, poor wages, inadequate housing and discriminatory practices."



And the difference between now and 1964 is............44 years.



I'm not disputing there is a problem. I'm disputing the solution is more complex than just "enforcing the laws on the employers". We tried to fix this in 1986.



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986</a>



And the difference between now and 1986 is............22 years.



As a child (I was 3) I watched the UFW firebomb a bus full of scab workers, killing two near Huron California. You have no fan in me of the UFW.



Growers are growers. They grow. And they do what they have to do to survive. I don't have a lot of love for them either.



Upton Sinclain wrote "The Jungle" in 1906 to show the abuses of workers in meat processsing.



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle</a>



So, instead of getting workers rights, saftey, and wages, we get the USDA.



Who was working in the meat processing plants in suburban Chicago a hundred years ago? Lithuanian immigrants of questionable immigration status. A hundred years of progress and we're still packing meat on the backs of exploitable immigrants. (I would argue the exploitable part. They willfully moved here. Nobody's forcing them to show up for the market rate jobs. Nobody's keeping NSR from moving back to the farm to buck hay either.)



I guess my only point is if you do what you are suggusting, you are going to cause disruptions in the food supply that will make the recent drama over rice prices look like, well, absolutley nothing. These people are here and assymilated into the ecomomy over the past 60 or so years. What you are suggesting will absolutey solve the disease by killing the patient. It's no solution. Which is why nobody will do anything about it.



This doesn't mean the problem isn't real or doesn't need to be addressed. It just means it's complex, maybe beyond what is practical to solve.
 
Man... this thread was about what you loved about Irvine, and now it is about those in farming. Eh, for those who thought Ten was the bad one, come on... ideas, thoughts, and getting chicks or dudes has become the norm here. Lighten the f*ck up, and enjoy all of which IHB can provide. This thread proves what it can be, houses, chicks/dudes, PC, imigration, farming, and graped for wine.



Maple, a new poster here, made a great point, there are great minds here who provide a high level of intellectual discussion. See, this can come from various sources, whether you agree or not. Enjoy it, do not fight it.



BTW, I grew up here, and anyone who thinks the river jetties are the best surf spot do not understand the swells, and 56 can be way better than trestles, especially now as it is not what it once was. Do not get me started on this, as I know awgee will back me up.



So... who has actually grown up in OC? 909ers and 951whiners do not count. It is time to pony up, and to suck it up. I will not hold anything against anyone not from here, but if you are from across the country, then you have to admit... this is new territory.



I am hoping this will create a meaningful discussion, and not be offended by those who get out to places like Sutra. Oh, and if you hate Sutra, they have some serious issues going on.
 
Graph,



I do have to admit. I am involved in several other blogs that fits my interest, and by far the Irvine Housing Blog is quite special. Imagine 10 years from now, if 50% of the entire Irvine population is networked to this blog? I would say that would be 100k to 150k members. The wonderful thing I see about this blog is that it is not just a tool for housing for me, but a tool for an authentic community of making new friends with similar interests. What could be a more of a similar interest than having a passion for living in Irvine?



With my southern background, I am a little ultra conservative. For example I ended up marrying my first girl friend because that was one of my goals. You see how opposite I am from Ten. I've read many of Ten's prior posts and I do think he is an intelligent and a cool guy. Ten, no smack intended, no hard feelings. In real life, if Ten and I were back in college, would we ever hang out in Sutra every weekend? Probably not. However, this blog allows people who would never talk to each in real life (complete opposites) to connect and potentially even become friends. That is the beauty of this blog.
 
I think it became a thread about how Irvine is so wonderful becuase the underclass of employees (that nobody really wants to talk about, many would love to get rid of, and we all benifit from even if we pay for it indriectly) doesn't live in Irvine.
 
What is this underclass of which you speak? You mean my office trash doesn't empty itself? The toilets are not self cleaning? Those strawberries I bought at the stand were not picked by joyful white people who like waking before dawn and earning less than minimum wage during 12 hour days? The hell you say.
 
And for those of you who feel strongly about the immigration issue, perhaps you would like to visit the Western Grower's Association, which is located in Irvine, and share your thoughts with them. <a href="http://www.wga.com/WhoWeAre/WesternGrowersIntroduction/tabid/219/Default.aspx">Not surprisingly, their concern is profit, not immigration, and not their workers.</a>
 
I knew that there was a way to tie this thread back together...



One thing I love about Irvine:



<a href="http://www.tanakafarms.com/">Tanaka Farms</a>



<img src="http://irvinerealtorsite.com/strawberries.JPG" alt="" />
 
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