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irvine_home_owner -



You've given me quite a bit to respond to. I'll try to get to them all:



No, I have not lived in Irvine. I came to the blog to discuss the housing bubble. California is the epicenter so it is relevant to me although to someone who lives in Irvine, the natural reaction is going to be "Why is this jerk in AZ concerned with Irvine and telling me that my town isn't wonderful?" There is nothing about Irvine specifically that interests me, I just appreciate the open format of the main blog where the administrators don't filter and delay posts, they allow image linking, etc. IrvineRenter knows what he is talking about and it's nice to see like-minded opinions when the average word on the street is typically the opposite. The fact that it is centered around Irvine is irrelevant to me otherwise.



I am going to take issue with your accusation that the photo-shopped images are similar to the things that BK has said.

To me it is obvious that the images are clearly humorous in nature and intended to be received in jest. What makes them funny is that there is that slight element of truth.



Comedy is comedy - I love it, you love it. That's why we leave comedy at the door because the context is humorous in nature.



That is completely different than for me to look at a chart that someone submits and claim that my ethnic group or people in my culture are exempt from the results which is what bkshopr was saying. He wasn't trying to make a joke, he was just stating it matter of factly.



When you and I think of racism, we think of lunch counters, segregation, etc, but there is a lot more to it than just that. I personally hate the term "racism" because there one human race. I would rather use terms like ethnocentrism, etc, but racism appears to be the catch all word that we can all agree on even if it doesn't make sense logically.



That being said, I don't think bkshopr is the hate-monger, but he has said things that are questionable. Like I said in my previous post, when you make the statement "Asians have unpredictable wealth" you are also saying "Non-Asians have predictable wealth". This obviously has the potential to irritate a non-Asian because they can read it and conclude that they have been stereotyped as being economically inferior to Asians. This should be trivially obvious. And when I say this to bkshopr - notice how he does not even try to understand? He just starts bragging about his qualifications to say those things.



There is also the reality that we are composed of a lot of different cultures and backgrounds and I am sure that bkshopr is much more knowledgeable about Asian culture and customs than I am. That is completely different than what I am calling out in my previous example from above. I hope that you can understand the difference.



I will also respond to your accusation that I skirted racism by referring to bkshopr as "master". It took me a second to understand what you meant by this, but I concluded that you interpreted "master" as it is related to a slave-owner. I used the word "master" because I used an image of "master yoda" from Star Wars and mocked bkshopr's statements in Yoda's dialect ("Ancient chinese secret, your house prices they are", etc). My reference to "master bkshopr" was nothing more than a "master yoda" with "bkshopr" substituted for "yoda" and had nothing to do with slaves. So your argument that I skirted racism on that one isn't going to wash.



I hope that clarifies things a little better.
 
ASU Girls Rock!



<img src="http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb236/GridironGoddess/SI_Lauren_Thompson-ASU-1004.jpg" alt="" />



Go AZDave....Go Cards!!!
 
[quote author="CK" date=1232683433]My disgust with Arizona has nothing to do with AZDave. I just can't get over the fact their crappy football team has the nerve to hand a clipboard to a nice wholesome OC boy like Matt Leinart. Don't those Cardinals realize they will never have any success until they get an SC Trojan under center??!!







Look at poor Matt, imagine how miserable he is having been sentenced to a life in the desert....</blockquote>
So you want the Steelers to win? Leinart lost the starting job because he needs to be the worst player on the field to have any success. Kurt Warner, on the other hand, finds a way to make other players better than they are on their own. Rah Rah USC and all that, but Leinart can't play at the pro level.
 
[quote author="Oscar" date=1232684655][quote author="CK" date=1232683433]My disgust with Arizona has nothing to do with AZDave. I just can't get over the fact their crappy football team has the nerve to hand a clipboard to a nice wholesome OC boy like Matt Leinart. Don't those Cardinals realize they will never have any success until they get an SC Trojan under center??!!







Look at poor Matt, imagine how miserable he is having been sentenced to a life in the desert....</blockquote>
So you want the Steelers to win? Leinart lost the starting job because he needs to be the worst player on the field to have any success. Kurt Warner, on the other hand, finds a way to make other players better than they are on their own. Rah Rah USC and all that, but Leinart can't play at the pro level.</blockquote>


Naw, I'm just being a smart ass. I'm rooting for the Cardinals, and think Matt deserves that clipboard. Mark Sanchez will probably be starting in NFL before Leinart.
 
[quote author="CK" date=1232684827]



Naw, I'm just being a smart ass. I'm rooting for the Cardinals, and think Matt deserves that clipboard. Mark Sanchez will probably be starting in NFL before Leinart.</blockquote>


We?re still going to roll and dominate, no question.

Matt Barkley will be our starting QB next year.
 
[quote author="AZDavidPhx" date=1232684552]I am going to take issue with your accusation that the photo-shopped images are similar to the things that BK has said.

To me it is obvious that the images are clearly humorous in nature and intended to be received in jest. What makes them funny is that there is that slight element of truth.



Comedy is comedy - I love it, you love it. That's why we leave comedy at the door because the context is humorous in nature.



That is completely different than for me to look at a chart that someone submits and claim that my ethnic group or people in my culture are exempt from the results which is what bkshopr was saying. He wasn't trying to make a joke, he was just stating it matter of factly.

</blockquote>
I disagree. This goes in part to you not being active in the forums where many of bk's posts are in fact humorous. His own wife commented in this thread about his "tongue-in-cheek" style of humor. Maybe your preferred medium is images... and bk's is words. You will have to admit... that the latter is harder to discern unless you are aware of the pattern.



And just like your images... what makes bk's comments funny "is that there is a slight element of truth".

<blockquote>

When you and I think of racism, we think of lunch counters, segregation, etc, but there is a lot more to it than just that. I personally hate the term "racism" because there one human race. I would rather use terms like ethnocentrism, etc, but racism appears to be the catch all word that we can all agree on even if it doesn't make sense logically.



That being said, I don't think bkshopr is the hate-monger, but he has said things that are questionable. Like I said in my previous post, when you make the statement "Asians have unpredictable wealth" you are also saying "Non-Asians have predictable wealth". This obviously has the potential to irritate a non-Asian because they can read it and conclude that they have been stereotyped as being economically inferior to Asians. This should be trivially obvious. And when I say this to bkshopr - notice how he does not even try to understand? He just starts bragging about his qualifications to say those things.

</blockquote>
Again... I disagree. To me... what he is saying is that it's harder to categorize asian financials because of the foreign nature of their income sources. A majority of "Non-Asians" (which could include US-born asians) have documented credit history, salaries etc... where as FCBs (Foreign Cash Buyers) can come up with 100% down payments which skews the pricing demographic because they are not affected by the credit crunch or stock market woes. I think you are making an assumption by saying that bk's implications are that non-asians are economically inferior... he is just saying that are economically unpredictable... that's a big difference... sometimes he says what he means and no more.



As to his qualifications... I actually believe that if you lived in Irvine and experienced the asian culture and its effects on this area... you would change your tune. You would see the humor in his statements as well as the non-racist altruisms. I believe that is where most of this difference of opinion lies... not in your education or background... just your environment.

<blockquote>

I will also respond to your accusation that I skirted racism by referring to bkshopr as "master". It took me a second to understand what you meant by this, but I concluded that you interpreted "master" as it is related to a slave-owner. I used the word "master" because I used an image of "master yoda" from Star Wars and mocked bkshopr's statements in Yoda's dialect ("Ancient chinese secret, your house prices they are", etc). My reference to "master bkshopr" was nothing more than a "master yoda" with "bkshopr" substituted for "yoda" and had nothing to do with slaves. So your argument that I skirted racism on that one isn't going to wash.

</blockquote>
Hehe... slave-ownership was not even in my mind. You do realize that the whole Yoda/Jedi thing is a parody of the chinese kung-fu films with wise old masters and students? The Yoda image is more relatable to the shao-lin master in the Kung Fu TV series (the one who Cain had to steal the pebble from) and so your image, maybe unbeknownst to you, could possibly bring about negative connotations by asians who are offended by that stereotype. That is a prime example of skirting racism unknowingly because you are not asian.

<blockquote>

I hope that clarifies things a little better.</blockquote>
I hope the same. And regardless of our differences... I do hope you continue to post more in the forums because I find these type of conversations easier to enage in than the blog comment format.



And please tell us what Arizonians use their garages for.
 
I just wanted to chime in with a couple comments about BK's "Asian racism."



First, I think the term Asian is a lousy word in that it is not precise. Asia includes India, Pakistan, Iraq, China, Thailand, Israel, Japan, N & S Korea, Turkey, & Russia. I don't see BK's (and everyone else's) use of Asian applying to all of these. I can't think of an English word that he could use instead. Pacific Rimmers? :bug:



Second, I think some of the problems people have with BK are just due to language. If English was his first language, and if avoiding offending others was the top priority in his life, he would probably use more "hedging" words and say things like "Asians tend to..." or "you will often find that many Asian cultures have a propensity to..." blah blah blah. He doesn't much do that. So, if you are bothered by what he writes, just sprinkle in some hedge words as you read his posts.
 
[quote author="T!m" date=1232690025] So, if you are bothered by what he writes, just sprinkle in some hedge words as you read his posts.</blockquote>


Or grow some skin. Or leave.



<img src="http://blog.thisiskatie.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/gtfo-take-fail.jpg" alt="" />
 
I am on this site because I value the diversity of members. Like my wife said English is not my first language but I continue to write good informative posts despite my weakness in writing. What comes naturally for most I spent a much longer time to compose my thoughts and articulate complicated ideas and facts in a simple way without losing my audience. I seldom use ?tend to? or ?have a propensity? because I have to present to my clients absolute answers not may be or possibly could be. Perhaps using more politically correct phrases would please a wider audience.



The best of this site has to offer is the brutality of truth and not to sugar coat subject matters. I enjoy the dialogues for various subjects and actually learned a few garage things from IHO and others. Asians have a propensity to insult each others all day long when they are close to each other as buddies. And buddies forgive each other constantly without harvesting animosity. If a friend is not willing to pardon or be tolerant then that individual is not worthy to be a friend. When an Asian is polite to you then that means he is cautious and a distant stranger.



For many who read my posts for the first time including IR, Graph, Troop, Eva, Acpme, NoVas, Zovall, ISM, and countless others have a propensity to perceive my post as harsh until they continue to read many more of my subsequent posts. One can?t judge BK by his cover. AZ David I hope you will continue to join us and give us the benefit of a doubt that we are here to benefit each other. We can all learn and teach a few things. I am not here to stir up issues or be labeled as racist. When I say the earth is round I do not mean the moon is not round, square, or oval, or crescent. I hope you would consider that my posts are never to degrade or put any one down. We have many good members like Tenmagnet started out adversarial but now we all can joke around without getting our feeling hurt.



I have been in this industry long enough and certainly would not have survived this long if I had worn a cone hat. Because I am not fluent in your language I have to strengthen my observation and perception skills.



I am an older poster from old school compared to the techies here but I am learning new things constantly from my wife and all of you.
 
[quote author="CK" date=1232680399]All I have to say about this thread is that I sure hope my Asian wife does not come here and read this. As soon as she figures out how much us White folk like our garages, she is probably going to stop banishing me out there when I misbehave!</blockquote>


Another good reason not to have the 3 car wide garage but have a 2 car and an oversized 1 car garage separated by a courtyard so the chance of her finding you in your favorite hide away is only 50%!
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1232703059]I never thought you to be harsh. Direct maybe, but not harsh. I'm harsh (I don't suffer fools at all) but you're just direct.</blockquote>


And seriously? Thank goodness for that.
 
AzDavePHX,



You should know that even as BKs wife I have been questioned, hammered, called out and picked on. Not because people didn't like my husband, but because what I said was either limited in a factual context, or was utterly disagreed with. So this group, as you define them, is not without limits or boundaries. They call it like they see it, and like it or not, its what you will always, always get here.



I am genuinely sorry you consider my husband a racist, however, contextually I think it would be exceptionally difficult to prove. I don't see Graphix or No Vas as less tolerant really, I see them as people who don't suffer fools lightly. Graphix is particularly difficult for perturb so his post this morning should rightfully indicate that you have annoyed the crap out of him. I am also not an insider here, as I do not post often, and I've felt some of the exclusionary feelings that come from being new and questioned here and I can tell you that again, its not that people don't like you ... its that they heartily disagree with what you are saying. And emotional reactions/responses do not help that at all.



If you were ever to meet BK in person, you would find him to be extremely humble, unassuming and more than willing to laugh at himself and the stereotypes of his fellow Pacific Rimmers... ( somehow that sounds dirty)



Anyway, if his posts bother you, ignore them, its really very simple.



Good luck in PHX



Grace
 
[quote author="AZDavidPhx" date=1232747573]Anybody who has a problem with my argument should watch this clip.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0</blockquote>


Soooooo last year. ;-)
 
Dear Bk,

I wanted to say that I enjoy your posts very much and I have learned a great deal from them. Please do not change anything about the way you post based on any negative comments you may read in this forum. Thanks again for the great posts and keep them coming !
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1232687502]

I will also respond to your accusation that I skirted racism by referring to bkshopr as "master". It took me a second to understand what you meant by this, but I concluded that you interpreted "master" as it is related to a slave-owner. I used the word "master" because I used an image of "master yoda" from Star Wars and mocked bkshopr's statements in Yoda's dialect ("Ancient chinese secret, your house prices they are", etc). My reference to "master bkshopr" was nothing more than a "master yoda" with "bkshopr" substituted for "yoda" and had nothing to do with slaves. So your argument that I skirted racism on that one isn't going to wash.



<blockquote>Hehe... slave-ownership was not even in my mind. You do realize that the whole Yoda/Jedi thing is a parody of the chinese kung-fu films with wise old masters and students? The Yoda image is more relatable to the shao-lin master in the Kung Fu TV series (the one who Cain had to steal the pebble from) and so your image, maybe unbeknownst to you, could possibly bring about negative connotations by asians who are offended by that stereotype. That is a prime example of skirting racism unknowingly because you are not asian.

</blockquote>
</blockquote>


when i saw the original image that was also my first thought. i thought it was more the old kung fu master speaking in broken english as opposed to a star wars reference. but dave does have a point once he explains its clearly a star wars reference, i can see that. no harm, no foul. so give Bk the same benefit of the doubt, yeah?
 
T!m -



The clip may be from last year, but it clearly proves that my point has some degree of merit. Anybody who has a problem with it should school themselves by watching it and then come back for an honest debate.
 
[quote author="AZDavidPhx" date=1232760508]T!m -



The clip may be from last year, but it clearly proves that my point has some degree of merit. Anybody who has a problem with it should school themselves by watching it and then come back for an honest debate.</blockquote>


Rick rolling doesn't facilitate debate.
 
AZDave:



Do you now understand how the Yoda image could also be seen as racist? An "honest debate" also requires the participants to concede points when presented with a compelling counter.
 
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