What do you use your garage for?

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[quote author="bkshopr" date=1232593214] Yes you have the right to do what ever you want but for the sake of your neighbors keep your activities in the backyard and not displaying everything for the entire neighborhood to witness. This is the biggest reason I promote garages at the rear of the house with direct access so you can keep your household activities private.</blockquote>


I think this is the reason I got the thank you from BK. My neighbors either don't appreciate me working on my project car, or they are interested, and either way, I'd prefer they didn't know how much I have in tools, equipment, and parts behind a flimsy garage door. It would make everyone happy. In a lot of ways I'd be better off building my car in BK's neighborhood than mine because my neighbors would be less likely to figure out what I was up to.



That is, until I start it without exhaust because I had to change the headers.
 
As BK's wife Id like to contribute some clarification to his argument/statements regarding garages. The first thing is I believe that this conversation/disagreement has lost its focus. We have a 2 car garage, its on the back right side and we do use it for bulk food storage, Christmas decoration storage, his tools, and some other items the issue BK originally stated was for aesthetic purposes only. Our garage is at the end of a long driveway, and as I said we do use it for various and sundry things.



To address BK's comments about "hoarding" Id like to give a little clarification if you would be kind enough to bear with me. BK, his mother and sister were born and raised into poverty that is probably worse than anything anyone in America can comprehend. They are not "hoarders" in the Oprah "OMG look at that pig stye" sense, but they all hold onto things in case they may have another use later. And there are some times when they are right. My home is by no means filthy nor are any of the closets or cupboards stuffed to embarrassment should anyone open them. And there is at least one person on this board who can verify that.



The idea that a garage can be an extension of your living space and needs to be connected to the house is purely subjective. Fine you want to have whatever in your garage at the front of the house ok... but I agree with BK and the aesthetic regarding placement of the garage. Garages in the front of the house are unattractive almost universally, and I disagree with the idea that its the perfect place for a poker game or whatever, most peoples garages are dumps for items they don't use, stuff they don't want, but don't want to give away, and so on. A 3 car garage attached to the front of the house just makes that mess more obvious. Every time your neighbors see your garage door open, they see the mess inside.



The idea that it needs to be connected because otherwise you have to walk each family member into the rain under an umbrella is ridiculous. How many days a year do we have rain here? And how likely is it that you will be going to costco on those days? Seriously I really feel like this is grasping. Your preference for a garage at the front of the out is nothing more than your preference. And there are plenty of master-planned track homes for you to choose from. BK has a tremendous amount of experience, knowledge and understanding of architecture. Consider his statements, and posts. Trust me when I tell you that you are lucky to have his time.



To whomever called him a racist: I have to LOL because I am white, he is Asian, and he is very tolerant of everyone, however he does like to poke fun at Asian stereotypes. Like an Irish person that tells Irish jokes. So lighten up a little. sheesh.
 
One more thing that I would add is that while I mostly agree with your description of the "asian" homebuyer, I think that it falls down some for the later generations.



I have 1.5, 2.0, and 3-5 generation asian friends who are more closely aligned with "white" property usage/values.



Also, my observation is that high income hispanics, tend towards the "white" model of usage also.
 
I'll get to your wife's post after I address some of your points:

[quote author="bkshopr" date=1232593214]

I agree that you do utilize your garages and driveway a lot and the list of things you do on your driveway. If I were your neighbor across the street I don't want to see your garage doors opened and seeing all your storage and among other things that you do. I certainly don't want to hear your table saw, sander, and other power tools. If you are handy with cars then that is even worse when I have to see the open hood of your cars and grease on your driveway. I certainly do not want to hear that ball bouncing on the driveway or bang shots on that beautiful basket hoop sitting on your driveway. When I have to back out from my house and I have to be careful not to run over your kids playing on your driveway paradise while chasing after a ball on the street.



Yes you have the right to do what ever you want but for the sake of your neighbors keep your activities in the backyard and not displaying everything for the entire neighborhood to witness. This is the biggest reason I promote garages at the rear of the house with direct access so you can keep your household activities private.



If I had to sell my house across the street from you my potential buyers certainly would not be interested in my house after seeing the activities on your driveway.



I am telling you most homeowners will feel the same way. It is selfish and sad but true.

</blockquote>
This seems a bit contradictory. You stated in other threads that the frontal garage is a reason why we have a decline in socialization among neighbors yet when I mention all the social aspects a frontal garage can provide... you do not appreciate them.



Back in one of my first houses... I worked on staining a entertainment unit in my garage... not only did that bring me close to my next door neighbor (he offered to help out with things I did not have) but it allowed me to meet other neighbors who were interested in what I was doing. If I see a neighbor table-sawing some pieces of wood in his driveway or garage (and I'm not talking about something he does on a daily or weekly basis, just on occasional project) it will spur me to strike up conversation with him to talk about what he is doing.



If I drive around a neighborhood and I see kids running around in their driveway or the street... that's a plus to me... not a detractor because I know that it's a family-oriented street... not some nuisance I have to look out for as I back out of my driveway. And trust me... there will be no bank-shots at 7am in the morning or 10pm at night. I enjoy the sounds of kids playing during reasonable daylight hours... what bugs me more is my neighbor who has his gardener mowing his lawn at 7am on a weekend morning when I'm trying to sleep in after a long week of work.

<blockquote>

In good neighborhood design the placement of garages is important for aethetics, function and most importantly minimizes potential problem for some homeowners interrupting peace in neighborhood. The concept of a detached condo cluster is a good example of promoting peace by confining the turn-in garages to a motorcourt. The activities in the garages are shield from the street in an oblique view rather than totally fronting on the street.</blockquote>
I can agree with you on the aesthetics... but the notion of hiding my family activities is really opposite of what you previously stated about what was wrong with today's homes. Stuff I don't want the neighbors to see (like me getting a tan)... I'll keep in the backyard (although in Irvine, backyards aren't really more private than the frontyard)... but other things like not letting my kids playing in the driveway just seems so anti-social.
 
[quote author="GraceOMalley" date=1232593546]The idea that a garage can be an extension of your living space and needs to be connected to the house is purely subjective. Fine you want to have whatever in your garage at the front of the house ok... but I agree with BK and the aesthetic regarding placement of the garage. Garages in the front of the house are unattractive almost universally, and I disagree with the idea that its the perfect place for a poker game or whatever, most peoples garages are dumps for items they don't use, stuff they don't want, but don't want to give away, and so on. A 3 car garage attached to the front of the house just makes that mess more obvious. Every time your neighbors see your garage door open, they see the mess inside.

</blockquote>
Most garages being dumps or a mess is subjective too. Many of my friends have very nice garages where they can roll out carpets or have that trendy grainy floor coating. Maybe it's just me... but I've been to several social events in well manicured garages.

<blockquote>

The idea that it needs to be connected because otherwise you have to walk each family member into the rain under an umbrella is ridiculous. How many days a year do we have rain here? And how likely is it that you will be going to costco on those days? Seriously I really feel like this is grasping.

</blockquote>
No one has called bk's opinions "ridiculous" or "grasping". We just don't agree with all of them. It may not rain very much in SoCal... but it does get very cold... or very hot. You have a kid in heated or air-con'ed car and then you want to make them walk outside before going into the house?

<blockquote>

Your preference for a garage at the front of the out is nothing more than your preference. And there are plenty of master-planned track homes for you to choose from. BK has a tremendous amount of experience, knowledge and understanding of architecture. Consider his statements, and posts. Trust me when I tell you that you are lucky to have his time.

</blockquote>
Uhh... yeah... no one has said otherwise. This thread is full of preferences... and that's what some of us prefer. Did anyone here say we did not respect bk? Or that we don't appreciate his time and experience. Don't mistake disagreement with disrespect... everyone is allowed to have their opinions... that's what a discussion board is for... to discuss.

<blockquote>

So lighten up a little. sheesh.</blockquote>
No one is attacking bk here... just having differences of opinion. Viva la 3-car wide garage!!!
 
BK's point about "cost efffectiveness" is right.........to a point. I could of bought a new Mustang twice (maybe more than twice) for what I've spend on mine. Yet..........I don't want to.



Interestingly enough, I have zero desire to do construction projects.
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1232596425]

No one is attacking bk here... just having differences of opinion.</blockquote>


A-freakin-men! Viva la personal preferences!
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1232599334][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1232596425]

No one is attacking bk here... just having differences of opinion.</blockquote>


A-freakin-men! Viva la personal preferences!</blockquote>
Racist
 
[quote author="Oscar" date=1232599399][quote author="caycifish" date=1232599334][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1232596425]

No one is attacking bk here... just having differences of opinion.</blockquote>


A-freakin-men! Viva la personal preferences!</blockquote>
Racist</blockquote>


LOL! :lol:
 
IHO you are an interesting character and I do enjoy the symposium about garages. Most post war era neighborhoods builders perceived the garages as the places where family hang out and work on their home projects. The emphasis of such a strong philosophical belief promoted the garages as the most forward element situated on every land parcel across America and especially the new suburbs along the fringe suburb of LA County and Northern OC after 1945. The garages were the multi-purpose space for homeowners like you who made friends with the neighbors by borrowed tools, exchange ideas and tips, and hold parties in garages. Not everyone live like that in a garage dominant neighborhood. My statement about garages at the front of homes is still true in promoting the anti-social attitude among neighbors except for you and a few of your neighbors.



History has proven that such a design have been favored by home buyers since the mid 40?s. At the same time this lifestyle and garage dominant neighborhoods purchased by families with every good intention in promoting family and neighborly interaction has also fallen victim of despair. Stanton, Cypress, Bellflower, Garden Grove, Buena Parks, Anaheim, Westminster, Santa Ana, Azusa, Rosemead, La Mirada, Norwalk, Hawaiian Garden, Lakewood, North Long Beach, Irwindale, Panorama City, North Hollywood, Reseda, Van Nuys, Sun Valley, Downey, and countless builders tract communities built after the war that became today?s ghettos. We can?t deny history that most garage dominated builders? tract became slums.



Perhaps you will argue that the older properties became undesirable but I will argue that the aesthetic of a garage dominated communities become less desirable as the homes aged compared to neighborhoods where the garages were de-emphasized such as San Marino, Hancock Park, Floral Park, Old Town Orange, Pacific Palisade, Fairfax District, Belmont Heights, Raymond Hills, Newport Heights, Pasadena, Oak Knoll, Old town Whittier, La Canada Flintridge, Cheviot Hills, 90210, Bel Air, Balboa Island and so many other classic neighborhoods without frontal garages have endured the test of time and considered the classic gem neighborhoods in southern CA. Yes, there are garage dominated neighborhoods that are famous but they are all coastal properties.



The next wave of garage dominant Inland Empire built during the early 70?s is already on its way becoming slums such Moreno Valley, Murrieta, Lake Elsinore, Adelanto and many others.



Enough of history I would like to get back to the subject of your comment that good neighbor interaction is enhanced by activities conducted in garages. I agree with you and your neighbors. However when the garage activities are viewed by outsiders or visitors driving around the neighborhood the perception responses are often registered as negative and undesirable. Take for instance you are driving through an unfamiliar Santa Ana neighborhood and see a bunch of church kids in oversized white T-shirt with baggy pants hanging around the front of the garages full of junks and playing cards or seeing NoVas working on his rusty car on the driveway that he knows someday that piece of junk that I saw will become a shiny Hot Rod. No doubt the responses from most visitors will be negative and undesirable. Kids running around neighborhood are a good thing but the perception for most when kids are playing on the street is perceived as lack of supervision by the parents or the neighborhood lacks park amenities.



I am convinced that garages are great and serve a purpose but it is also a detriment to character and aesthetic to neighborhood. Irvine planners worked hard in deemphasizing the placement of garages in order to achieve some level of quality aesthetic. I am also convinced that garage dominated sterile neighborhoods also retain lesser value and less desirable in the future compared to charming neighborhoods with porches and subordinate garages.



History does not lie. The priciest and sought after neighborhoods are places where garages are shielded from public?s view.
 
Like I said... I totally agree about the aesthetics aspect... but for the 2000-3000sft range in Irvine... full frontal garage-ity is the only thing we got. I've seen similar-sized homes in Carlsbad that used the back alley garage style but I guess it just seems impersonal to me. Maybe I grew up in the era where a house with a garage was a friendly house.



As for no_vas and his baggy pants friends... that's what HOAs are for. I'm more irritated about my neighbors '85 junker infinitely parked on the curb across from me.... putting a garage in the back isn't going to cure that.



I just wanted to address the notion that garages are purely a storage/parking thing... they serve other purposes... even to the extent of increasing socialization. If Irvine builders were aware of that fact... they would at the very least make them more useful rather than just minimum size boxes that you can't even open your doors in when parking two cars in it.



Garages have feelings too!!!!
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1232606204]I'm more irritated about my neighbors '85 junker infinitely parked on the curb across from me...</blockquote>
Sorry, I'll move it.
 
I just want to add that I don't personally care where a garage is on the property as long as it includes a door to the house I can open with a button (ie, the garage door) and no fishing for keys in my purse. That's a holdover preference created by apartment living and having to put down my bags while getting my keys out to unlock the front door. Oh, and also my childhood garage being attached to the laundry room...I'm just used to attached garages. I like Graph's house better, though, because the garage is attached to the kitchen and the door happens to be right by the pantry and fridge. Very convenient and a nice touch. I'm not one to care so much if something could be prettier if it is highly functional.
 
My childhood home had a detached garage and I didn?t like it at all. I did not like having to exit my garage and then unlock and open another door to get into the house, especially when carrying large items or if raining. I did not like that the garage was uninsulated, especially in the summer, it was like going into an oven anytime I needed to get something from the garage. I did not like going to the garage after dark because I often heard rustling noises in the dark bushes between the house and garage and my overactive imagination would kick into overdrive. I did not like backing down the long narrow driveway (many guests scraped their car against the retaining wall along the driveway).



On the other hand, if I could afford to live in a high class neighborhood like bk, I would not want an attached frontal garage because that wouldn?t be considered properly dressed.
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1232606204]Like I said... I totally agree about the aesthetics aspect... but for the 2000-3000sft range in Irvine... full frontal garage-ity is the only thing we got. I've seen similar-sized homes in Carlsbad that used the back alley garage style but I guess it just seems impersonal to me. Maybe I grew up in the era where a house with a garage was a friendly house.



As for no_vas and his baggy pants friends... that's what HOAs are for. I'm more irritated about my neighbors '85 junker infinitely parked on the curb across from me.... putting a garage in the back isn't going to cure that.



I just wanted to address the notion that garages are purely a storage/parking thing... they serve other purposes... even to the extent of increasing socialization. If Irvine builders were aware of that fact... they would at the very least make them more useful rather than just minimum size boxes that you can't even open your doors in when parking two cars in it.



Garages have feelings too!!!!</blockquote>


My wife was not referring to any one attacking me or anything. She was however bothered by AZDavid?s comments so her exclamation was just for him.



Everyone would love a wider garage and more storage. For every foot the garage increases that foot has to come out from the living spaces next to the garage such as a living room, dining room and kitchen. Consumers walking a model home would immediately sense the tightness of living space and criticize the smaller bedrooms, hall, and many other rooms. Very few or none would say ?I am willing to compromise in buying a tighter house because the garage is far superior by the extra width?. Consumers rarely walk into the garage of model homes to know it is deficient until after they move in. Builders who place emphasis on the garage will suffer when the inside of the home does not show well.



The answer is not to ask the developer for a wider lot because it is not possible. The standard is 20?x20? for a 2-car garage. Thoughtful builders in the past who built a wider 23? garage could not compete with builders who cheated the garages down to 19? resulting a much better and bigger interior space. The cheater builders ended selling a bigger home quicker and made a higher profit due to a higher footage than the thoughtful builders with limited interior space faced with longer absorption time.



We live in a realistic world driven by economic and the folks living in the tight space home curse the thoughtful builder 24 hr a day living in the tight space house while the folks living in the house with tight garage curse the cheater builder 3 minute per day while getting out of their garage. The folks with the bigger living space also sold their homes quicker than the folks with a wider garage.



Buyers living in an apartment have less demand when purchasing a home as long the things they hated in an apartment is no longer a challenge for a home. I know this demographic well. Apartment dwellers have no direct garage access, no storage, no dual sinks, no walk-in closet, no island in kitchen, no side by side laundry and no soaking tub. As long a builder satisfies only the list and not an item more entry level buyers are happy camper. For this consumer group function outweighs aesthetic.



Homeowners of entry level homes will quickly grow dissatisfied with their home and this is the biggest reason for most RE listings.
 
[quote author="High Gravity" date=1232610433]I did not like that the garage was uninsulated, especially in the summer, it was like going into an oven anytime I needed to get something from the garage. </blockquote>


I don't think that's any worse than having a bedroom located over an attached, un-airconditioned garage and reaping the extra summer heat.
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1232611528][quote author="High Gravity" date=1232610433]I did not like that the garage was uninsulated, especially in the summer, it was like going into an oven anytime I needed to get something from the garage. </blockquote>


I don't think that's any worse than having a bedroom located over an attached, un-airconditioned garage and reaping the extra summer heat.</blockquote>


The first house I bought in Fountain Valley was just like that. I also don't like that most of the older homes with attached garages have no dedicated space for laundry, except the garage. I absolutely HATE doing laundry in a garage.
 
When you get up to the $1mil+ range... the more discerning buyers actually look at the details... including how a garage is sized and laid out... at least I do.



I'll trade a 2-foot wide strip off my living room (which I use less than my garage) to give me space to open my car door. But maybe that's just me... and why I prefer a 3-car wide garage so I don't have to worry about that.



As for the builders... I think they can remedy the cheater builder syndrome by proper marketing. Just like Lennar started putting those "It's Included" signs on all their mini-upgrades... a smart builder will point out how their garages are better laid out. Sometimes it's not just about space but where they put the water heater or the entry door (like in the middle as another post stated). I say this because one of the most memorable model walk-throughs I did years ago... the sales person pointed out how the garage had extra side space so you could put in storage cabinets, a work bench or just have more room and both myself and another buyer commented on how great that was.



Maybe I'm the odd one because I'm not just about raw numbers... I'll buy a 2800sft house over a 3100sft house if the floorplan is better and the space is more useful.
 
A roomy garage is essential for the firearm enthusiast, a well-heeled demographic. You wouldn't want to see this in your family room, would you?



<img src="http://www.clanbaker.org/bench.jpg" alt="" />
 
When the price tag is well over 1.7 mil then it is time to compare garages against the competitions. $1mil is still a 2 car garage products. When higher end housing is running out tricks like wine cellar, basement theater, basement play courts to compare then the garage is the ultimate facet that defines the champion of homes. Basement garages with over 12 stalls and a car collection museum with full bedroom suite for a chauffeur are just some of the features in higher end custom homes
 
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