Veterans Cemetery coming to Irvine

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
I am all for the Veteran Cemetery but Irvine is a poor choice not because of the Chinese population reason. Veteran Cemetery location must be monumental or powerful in its planned location. I was at Arlington just a few days ago and over the Veteran Day at Westwood. Both locations are inspiring and next to famous federal or government buildings. Axial planning, city beautiful movement and Beaux Art monuments are the proper tribute to a cemetery of significance. Driving through cookie cutter homes on the way to a Veteran cemetery is bad taste and insulting to those who fought for this country.
 
OCgasman said:
yaliu07 said:
The argument I want to make is location.  We, Asian, dont like cemetery because we believe in ghost.  Why can't the cemetery build in a non-Asian community.
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Is this your argument?  Seriously?  You don't speak for every Asian.  Also, nobody wants a cemetery near them.  Why don't you go ask Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, or Huntington Beach if they would rather have the cemetery cuz "Asians are scared of ghosts".  Gimme a f'ing break.
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I dont understand your argument.  I understand I can't speak for every Asian.  However, can you find me an Asian family that loves live next to the cemetery.

According to city data, Irvine currently has 40% Asian.  And top 5 buyers of Pavilion Park are Asian.  http://www.city-data.com/city/Irvine-California.html

As For Costa Mesa, Asian is only 8.6%.  Newport Beach, 7.0% and Huntington Beach 10.5%.http://www.city-data.com/city/Costa-Mesa-California.htmlhttp://www.city-data.com/city/Newport-Beach-California.htmlhttp://www.city-data.com/city/Huntington-Beach-California.html

 
yaliu07 said:
If you read this carefully, there are people dont mind live next to the cemetery.  Let's build more cemetery next to their house.
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Just chiming in ... I'm ok with a VETERAN'S cemetery near my house ... Not a Rose Hills. 
 
ZeroLot said:
yaliu07 said:
If you read this carefully, there are people dont mind live next to the cemetery.  Let's build more cemetery next to their house.
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Just chiming in ... I'm ok with a VETERAN'S cemetery near my house ... Not a Rose Hills. 
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What's the difference?
 
qwerty said:
I never said I wasn't grateful for those guys that die in war to protect our freedom.
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No one said that. What was said is it's hard to compare the risks of a farming job that you get paid for to position of duty where dying is an every day possibility.
A lot of recent deaths in the military in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with protecting our freedom.
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That's arguable. Some would say it's not just American freedom being protected there but that's a topic that will never be resolved.
All I am saying is that I don't value one persons contributions over another. I don't see why I should put soldiers life on a pedestal but not a teacher who got killed by some armed student.
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Again, it's not the "value". A soldier's life is at risk every day, a teacher's really isn't. You don't see teachers dying daily doing their jobs... but soldiers do... and not because they are paid to, but because that is their duty and they know the risks yet still do it. If you were to tell a teacher that every day, every single student could have a handgun or an IED, I doubt many would show up to work (well... maybe some of these more urban teachers are braver than most).
My point is we are all humans, we all play a role in making the world go round and one life is not more honorable than the next. Put us all in the same cemetery. Society tends to hammer certain beliefs into people, you need to get married and have kids, military/cops/firefighters lives are more honorable than yours or mine, etc. just my view.
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And the fact that is it your view and opinion and that you can express it is a result of what? In other countries, that would not be possible... the very freedoms you possess is related to the wars fought by the soldiers who died fighting them. Not by the teachers, not by the farmers and not by the computer programmers.
Not arguing or trying to change anyone's view points or sound insensitive to those with military family members who have been killed in service
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I think sometimes that many of us are spoiled by our way of life in America and in the world. If any of us spend some time in the Middle East or any area that is in turmoil, I think our viewpoints will change.

And, yes, like you, I'm not trying to change your view or opinion, I'm just trying to explain how I look at it. I understand that we shouldn't be "classifying" groups of people but that's not how I see a Veteran's cemetery. If anyone wants to create a teacher's cemetery, a vegetable picker's cemetery, a fire fighter's cemetery... go for it... but the very idea that such a thing can be done is because we have the freedom to do so, and that is a large part of the reason why so many honor and respect the military.

I think it just comes down to perspective and since most of us have lived during a time of peace, we don't feel sense the "value" of military. I'm sure that if a foreign power decided to invade the US and hordes of enemy combatants were attacking Irvine, most of us would "value" soldiers standing around our home than some guys picking fruit or a firefighter. But in our everyday life, yes, the latter seems to have more "value" than the military. :)
 
yaliu07 said:
OCgasman said:
yaliu07 said:
The argument I want to make is location.  We, Asian, dont like cemetery because we believe in ghost.  Why can't the cemetery build in a non-Asian community.
Click to expand...
Is this your argument?  Seriously?  You don't speak for every Asian.  Also, nobody wants a cemetery near them.  Why don't you go ask Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, or Huntington Beach if they would rather have the cemetery cuz "Asians are scared of ghosts".  Gimme a f'ing break.
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I dont understand your argument.  I understand I can't speak for every Asian.  However, can you find me an Asian family that loves live next to the cemetery.

According to city data, Irvine currently has 40% Asian.  And top 5 buyers of Pavilion Park are Asian.  http://www.city-data.com/city/Irvine-California.html

As For Costa Mesa, Asian is only 8.6%.  Newport Beach, 7.0% and Huntington Beach 10.5%.http://www.city-data.com/city/Costa-Mesa-California.htmlhttp://www.city-data.com/city/Newport-Beach-California.htmlhttp://www.city-data.com/city/Huntington-Beach-California.html

If you read this carefully, there are people dont mind live next to the cemetery.  Let's build more cemetery next to their house.
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What I'm saying is that nobody, no matter what race, wants to have a cemetery in close proximity to where they live, just human nature with the potential depreciation, bad luck, etc.  But, using an ethnocentric argument that Asians prefer it less than other races holds no water.  Just like WTTCMN said, your viewpoint is classic "Not In My Backyard".  You have to come up with a better reason than "Asians are scared of ghosts", cuz quite frankly, that sounds stupid. 

I don't know the reasons why Irvine City Council proposed the Veteran's Cemetery and Memorial.  And at this point it doesn't matter, cuz the proposal is out there.  But, it would be a difficult public protest in the face of families who have lost loved ones in protection of our nation.  What are you going to say to them?  Drive an extra hour to Riverside County to pay respects to your son/daughter/father/mother/brother/sister because Asians don't want a Veteran's Cemetery near their neighborhood?  If that's your argument, I want no part of it.  You have to come up with something more tangible, because it has to face public scrutiny.  Asians usually hate public confrontation and this is what it will come down to, a battle of public opinion.  How are you going to argue against a crying mother who wants to visit her dead son in a nearby location who lost his life in defense of our country?  And make that argument with a reporter sticking a microphone in your face with a camera on.  Good luck with that.
 
@OCgasman:

On the proximity question, and maybe partially to qwerty's point, they don't have to use a Veteran's cemetery. That mother can bury her son at Fairhaven or Ascension which is close to Irvine.

I'm assuming there is also a cost benefit to using a Veteran's facility, but if non-military families are able to make due, nothing should prevent her from doing so either.

My qualms with living next to a cemetery would be the additional traffic and visitors on weekends and memorial holidays (not just Veteran's Day but also Mother's Day, Father's Day etc). Do people still remember the movie Poltergeist?
 
qwerty said:
I never said I wasn't grateful for those guys that die in war to protect our freedom. A lot of recent deaths in the military in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with protecting our freedom. All I am saying is that I don't value one persons contributions over another. I don't see why I should put soldiers life on a pedestal but not a teacher who got killed by some armed student. My point is we are all humans, we all play a role in making the world go round and one life is not more honorable than the next. Put us all in the same cemetery. Society tends to hammer certain beliefs into people, you need to get married and have kids, military/cops/firefighters lives are more honorable than yours or mine, etc. just my view. Not arguing or trying to change anyone's view points or sound insensitive to those with military family members who have been killed in service
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I truly respect your "I aint drinking the cool-aid" point of view.
And I think we all agree that life should be equally valued.

The issue with a cemetery, though, is honoring sacrifice.
I've seen our young men and women perform extraordinary acts of bravery and valor in battle. 
It's disheartening to hear those acts equated to vegetable picking. 

Most of us have no idea of the sacrifices our troops make for our security.
We simply enjoy the safe and comfortable cocoons they provide for us.
I'm not trying to convince you to think differently, just trying to give you the full picture.
 
yaliu07 said:
OCgasman said:
yaliu07 said:
The argument I want to make is location.  We, Asian, dont like cemetery because we believe in ghost.  Why can't the cemetery build in a non-Asian community.
Click to expand...
Is this your argument?  Seriously?  You don't speak for every Asian.  Also, nobody wants a cemetery near them.  Why don't you go ask Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, or Huntington Beach if they would rather have the cemetery cuz "Asians are scared of ghosts".  Gimme a f'ing break.
Click to expand...

I dont understand your argument.  I understand I can't speak for every Asian.  However, can you find me an Asian family that loves live next to the cemetery.

According to city data, Irvine currently has 40% Asian.  And top 5 buyers of Pavilion Park are Asian.  http://www.city-data.com/city/Irvine-California.html

As For Costa Mesa, Asian is only 8.6%.  Newport Beach, 7.0% and Huntington Beach 10.5%.http://www.city-data.com/city/Costa-Mesa-California.htmlhttp://www.city-data.com/city/Newport-Beach-California.htmlhttp://www.city-data.com/city/Huntington-Beach-California.html

If you read this carefully, there are people dont mind live next to the cemetery.  Let's build more cemetery next to their house.
Click to expand...

Can't spirits travel between cities?
How many miles away do you need to be to feel safe?
What's the level of asian-american population a city should consider acceptable for cemetery placement?


 
irvinehomeowner said:
@OCgasman:

On the proximity question, and maybe partially to qwerty's point, they don't have to use a Veteran's cemetery. That mother can bury her son at Fairhaven or Ascension which is close to Irvine.

I'm assuming there is also a cost benefit to using a Veteran's facility, but if non-military families are able to make due, nothing should prevent her from doing so either.

My qualms with living next to a cemetery would be the additional traffic and visitors on weekends and memorial holidays (not just Veteran's Day but also Mother's Day, Father's Day etc). Do people still remember the movie Poltergeist?
Click to expand...
First, nice rebuttal to Qwerty's argument.  Well said.  Qwerty, I don't discount any of your points, but I agree with IHO and O Hills.  Comparing risks between a soldier on the front with someone else in the U.S. isn't really apples to apples.

Besides the potential cost benefit, and I don't know, does the government pay for all funeral services in a national cemetery?  If so, that's not insignificant, cuz funerals are so expensive.  Some armed forces personnel or families of those might prefer to be buried alongside their fellow soldier or in a national cemetery as a reminder they gave their lives in defense of our nation.

I don't worry about traffic or visitors.  It'll be tiny in comparison to all the families that bring their kids to the sports complex for sports.  Parking lots are full just for AYSO, little league baseball/softball/basketball/football/volleyball/etc at tiny little regional parks and schools on weekends.  Now add club and other elite level teams to the rec teams that will use the sports complex and you have thousands going to the sports complex on weekends.  Not to mention the golf course traffic.  The Cemetery will be the least of the concern for traffic in that area.
 
No one said that. What was said is it's hard to compare the risks of a farming job that you get paid for to position of duty where dying is an every day possibility.
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the military get paid as well, not well, but they get paid.

there were 27 military deaths classified as hostile action in 2010, the last year reported. https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dcas/pages/report_number_serve.xhtml

there were 38 fisherman death in 2008 per the link below, its supposed to be 2013 data not sure why they reference 2008 deaths.  Sure seems like those fisherman know death is a possibility every day and yet they still do the job.http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/11/12/the-15-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america/

That's arguable. Some would say it's not just American freedom being protected there but that's a topic that will never be resolved.
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well i think most americans would say that our freedoms probably arent being protected with us in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Again, it's not the "value". A soldier's life is at risk every day, a teacher's really isn't. You don't see teachers dying daily doing their jobs... but soldiers do... and not because they are paid to, but because that is their duty and they know the risks yet still do it. If you were to tell a teacher that every day, every single student could have a handgun or an IED, I doubt many would show up to work (well... maybe some of these more urban teachers are braver than most).
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again, 38 fisherman died in 2008, they go to work knowing death is a real possibility every day. there are other jobs where death is a possibility every day.

And the fact that is it your view and opinion and that you can express it is a result of what? In other countries, that would not be possible... the very freedoms you possess is related to the wars fought by the soldiers who died fighting them. Not by the teachers, not by the farmers and not by the computer programmers.
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this is more the result of a democratic government, not the military.  i know, the past wars allowed the democratic government to give us these freedoms.

I think sometimes that many of us are spoiled by our way of life in America and in the world. If any of us spend some time in the Middle East or any area that is in turmoil, I think our viewpoints will change.

And, yes, like you, I'm not trying to change your view or opinion, I'm just trying to explain how I look at it. I understand that we shouldn't be "classifying" groups of people but that's not how I see a Veteran's cemetery. If anyone wants to create a teacher's cemetery, a vegetable picker's cemetery, a fire fighter's cemetery... go for it... but the very idea that such a thing can be done is because we have the freedom to do so, and that is a large part of the reason why so many honor and respect the military.

I think it just comes down to perspective and since most of us have lived during a time of peace, we don't feel sense the "value" of military. I'm sure that if a foreign power decided to invade the US and hordes of enemy combatants were attacking Irvine, most of us would "value" soldiers standing around our home than some guys picking fruit or a firefighter. But in our everyday life, yes, the latter seems to have more "value" than the military. :)
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i agree that we are spoiled by our way of life and take things for granted. just look at that meme, which was hilarious by the way, about that little kid saying we have so much clean water we actually shit in it.  and just like we are spoiled by the safety the military affords us, we are spoiled by all the other comforts that other people who put their life on the line every day provide for us.  that is all im trying to say. if there were no vegetable pickers or fisherman and you had to pick your own food or fish for yourself, i think we would all of sudden be a little more respectful of those groups. so the argument you make pretty much applies to a lot of different things, which is why i believe one groups is not more honorary than the next.
 
there were 27 military deaths classified as hostile action in 2010, the last year reported. https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dcas/pages/report_number_serve.xhtml[/color]
there were 38 fisherman death in 2008 per the link below, its supposed to be 2013 data not sure why they reference 2008 deaths.  Sure seems like those fisherman know death is a possibility every day and yet they still do the job.http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/11/12/the-15-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america/[/color]

You lose credibility when you use distorted data to support your position. 
The number of American troops who have died fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan alone totaled 6,802 as of April 2014.
 
Kangen.Irvine said:
How about looking at this differently. The cemetery wouldn't end up in our backyards. Instead we have chosen to live in the backyard of the El Toro MCAS.

Not everyone lived in this surrounding area when the Marine base was a major contributing part of our region, but it is a fact and this piece of history must be kept as a part of Orange County.

The Preamble to the US Constitution mentions six points, one of which is the provision of a common defense for America and Americans. Every person who wishes to call the United States their home pledges allegiance to this point upon receiving their citizenship. This is not an attempt to argue citizenship, but to emphasize a goal of the USA and a way to honor those who provided for our freedom.
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1. There are many military bases that closes in the US. Should the land be kept for military related purposes? I don't understand when you say "must be kept as a piece of history." That's your point of view. If the base (El Torro) was such an asset, the Navy/Pentagon would have not closed the base.

2. Pledge Allegiance has nothing to do with this argument. It means to be loyal to the United States and no other country.

The First Amendment guarantees freedoms concerning religion, expression, assembly, and the right to petition.  It forbids Congress from both promoting one religion over others and also restricting an individual?s religious practices.  It guarantees freedom of expression by prohibiting Congress from restricting the press or the rights of individuals to speak freely.  It also guarantees the right of citizens to assemble peaceably and to petition their government. 

Everybody has a right to their opinion.
 
I'm kind of indifferent either way.  However, recognize that this Argan guy is trying to buy votes left and right.  He's due to get booted out. 
 
O Hills said:
there were 27 military deaths classified as hostile action in 2010, the last year reported. https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dcas/pages/report_number_serve.xhtml[/color]
there were 38 fisherman death in 2008 per the link below, its supposed to be 2013 data not sure why they reference 2008 deaths.  Sure seems like those fisherman know death is a possibility every day and yet they still do the job.http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/11/12/the-15-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america/[/color]

You lose credibility when you use distorted data to support your position. 
The number of American troops who have died fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan alone totaled 6,802 as of April 2014.
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i wasnt using distorted data, just what i found, i did say it only went through 2010, didnt intentionally stop there to use certain numbers to make an argument.
 
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