Housing Analysis

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So I'm still not sure what Housing Analysis we are doing here.

To shortcut things, let's agree it's a slowdown and that it's not seasonal.

Then the next question(s) should be how long and how much right?

But the majority feels that can't be accurately predicted. So then what?

Buyers should wait on the sidelines until they see prices move back up? Should they stop looking at open houses and new home tours?

If you're a buyer, what are you doing right now? I think a few members have posted how they got out of escrow so what's your plan for the next year or so?

Everyone knows what my infamous advice is, but what are yours? "Wait" seems so ambiguous.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
So I'm still not sure what Housing Analysis we are doing here.

To shortcut things, let's agree it's a slowdown and that it's not seasonal.

Then the next question(s) should be how long and how much right?

But the majority feels that can't be accurately predicted. So then what?

Buyers should wait on the sidelines until they see prices move back up? Should they stop looking at open houses and new home tours?

If you're a buyer, what are you doing right now? I think a few members have posted how they got out of escrow so what's your plan for the next year or so?

Everyone knows what my infamous advice is, but what are yours? "Wait" seems so ambiguous.

Ok, so if we all agree that the housing market is slowing down more than the usual seasonality, then may I suggest some to the potential future buyers?

1. You can ask for discounts if you find the home you really want to buy. Ask more than usual. They will come back with counter anyways.

2. Rent in a village you want to buy in future. One year will pass by so quick and you will get to know more if it?s the town you want to keep living in.

3. Don?t expect too much drop too soon. This is the exact same as when you sell. If you list too high, it won?t sell. If you expect too low, it won?t happen any time soon unless some kind of YUGE recression comes. Many people say around 2020-2024 will be the lowest price point, but unless you?re going to wait that long, try to be happy with even a little bit of drop or discount that might come next year or so.

And of course, these are all considered only if you?ve already enjoyed the MAX ROI early this year.
 
Mety said:
2. Rent in a village you want to buy in future. One year will pass by so quick and you will get to know more if it?s the town you want to keep living in.

This was actually very hard for us. There were about 5 homes that we liked that were available to rent... it came down to 1 but when we notified the landlord he informed us he already rented it out.

We ended up renting one that was much more than we budgeted and after the lease, the landlord was a jerk. So YMMV... I know some people have a good rental experience but ours was pretty bad.

It actually soured my wife's opinion of the area so it came off of our list of hoods to buy in.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
Mety said:
2. Rent in a village you want to buy in future. One year will pass by so quick and you will get to know more if it?s the town you want to keep living in.

This was actually very hard for us. There were about 5 homes that we liked that were available to rent... it came down to 1 but when we notified the landlord he informed us he already rented it out.

We ended up renting one that was much more than we budgeted and after the lease, the landlord was a jerk. So YMMV... I know some people have a good rental experience but ours was pretty bad.

It actually soured my wife's opinion of the area so it came off of our list of hoods to buy in.

So it did help your family making the decision to not to buy there.

I think as for finding a good landlord, I?m sure it?s case by case, but FCBs with American property manager?s rental homes are good ones. They got money they will fix anything you ask and they can deduct from tax anyways. And you have no problem communicating also. I think non-FCB might worry about their property more and get kind of nitpicky with fixing stuff for the tenants.
 
Mety said:
So it did help your family making the decision to not to buy there.

I don't know. Other than the landlord issues, we really liked living there. We had found two homes there that were on our short list (one I mentioned that we got outbid on)... I think it would have been okay but both of those homes were not what we would have considered our "last" home so maybe it was better we ended up where we are.
I think as for finding a good landlord, I?m sure it?s case by case, but FCBs with American property manager?s rental homes are good ones. They got money they will fix anything you ask and they can deduct from tax anyways. And you have no problem communicating also. I think non-FCB might worry about their property more and get kind of nitpicky with fixing stuff for the tenants.

But this is tricky. At first, the guy seemed really nice. Repairs were done (leaky faucet) when requested and no problems during our lease. It was after where he became Mr. Sue Your Face.
 
I would like to know about the FCB or foreign buyers that were pushing up prices even if they were not cash buyers.

Are they selling? Are they still buying and if so, are they more picky about pricing?

I see (have for a while) a lot of vacant home listings.

USC..... any insight?
 
Ready2Downsize said:
I would like to know about the FCB or foreign buyers that were pushing up prices even if they were not cash buyers.

Are they selling? Are they still buying and if so, are they more picky about pricing?

I see (have for a while) a lot of vacant home listings.

USC..... any insight?

I'm not USC nor FCB, but I would think FCBs don't really need their properties occupied. If there are tenants paying monthly rents, then those will be just additional cash flows. Their main goal would be selling it when they are in a good ripe season with MAXROI.

For example, if they bought a $500k condo in 2012 and sold it $750k earlier this year, then they made $250K in 5 years without doing anything but only to pay about $40k-50k tax/HOA/property management/etc. If there were tenants occupied, then again additional cash in. Now this seems not too much gain in 5 years, but the real deal FCB usually own 10+ properties in good cities throughout. They are using it like a CD account. And they also have other main income sources so these properties are just like freelance gigs without much efforts put in.

As for pushing prices high, I believe those are just realtors not doing their jobs properly. Again, thinking in their shoes, if I were to see a potential FCB customer, I would try to get their attention saying, I can get you MAXROI in x years, but in reality that's not really possible. But then again to those FCBs, that $500k full cash is like nothing so they would just trust that "American realtor" and give their money in.

But I think real deal FCB all already bought income properties when the prices were much lower. Now days I see more half-FCB or wannabe-FCB doing 40-50% down or so.

 
Ready2Downsize said:
I would like to know about the FCB or foreign buyers that were pushing up prices even if they were not cash buyers.

Are they selling? Are they still buying and if so, are they more picky about pricing?

I see (have for a while) a lot of vacant home listings.

USC..... any insight?

I dont know if there is any data on residential housing.  Commercial real estate has seen huge sell offs those.  I believe 1.3B sold vs 0.126B bought in Q2 of this year.  Whether commercial is any indication of residential is unknown. 
 

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Mety said:
Their main goal would be selling it when they are in a good ripe season with MAXROI.

For example, if they bought a $500k condo in 2012 and sold it $750k earlier this year, then they made $250K in 5 years without doing anything but only to pay about $40k-50k tax/HOA/property management/etc.

In my opinion this is MINROI.  The 250K gain is literally negated by the 250K in carrying costs.  If you factor in the opportunity costs this a NEGATIVEROI. 
 
While the focus here is Chinese FCBs and their economic woes and loss of access to money, just remember that Irvine has a number of other FCB buyers. There is a large population of Korean, Middle Eastern, Jewish, Indian, Pakistani and others.

Additionally, if like Mety said, FCBs hold for MAXROI, if prices are going down in the next 2-5 years, there won't be a huge sell-off, they could wait until prices are back up which will actually slow the price drops... just like during the last downturn. There are conflicting opinions here that FCBs will sell their US holdings first but that doesn't make sense to me considering what we've seen in the past.

And as I mentioned in other threads, the last crash with the shady financing has actually produced a whole new set of buyers that are well financed and thus will be more immune to price drops. There will not be as many distressed properties or a need to sell as owners can afford to ride this out which is another factor that could keep prices from dropping any significant percentage.

Back during the last crash, it was obvious to everyone that people who ninja'd their way into a home would have issues, but... there were things that people who predicted a larger drop didn't foresee, particularly in Irvine:

1. FCBs who didn't use liar loans and would hold during the drop thus keeping the drop slower and smaller.
2. Kick the can squatters who were able to stay in their homes for longer periods thus keeping the foreclosures off the market.
3. Fed intervention with interest rates which actually allowed OARMS and other suspect borrowers to get into payments much more affordable for them. This and programs like HARP also helped keep distressed properties off the market.

I feel that the reason prices are so high now in Irvine is because of what happened the last crash. People saw how other cities dropped much harder and faster than Irvine and how Irvine not only dropped slower and lower, but recovered faster too and so that even made it more enticing to anyone who wanted to "protect" their investment to buy in Irvine. I believe there was a time when demand actually outpaced new construction which is why we saw so many new neighborhoods built in the last 5 years.

Additionally, there are strong job centers in Irvine. The Spectrum and the IBC have tons of job opportunities... so much so that the rental market in Irvine has expanded more in the last 5 years than I have seen previously. Everyone sees all the new apartment complexes The Irvine Company has built off the 405... not only near the Spectrum but also near what I call "Downtown Irvine". If you drive through the IBC (Main/Alton/Barranca/Jamboree) you will see quite a few in-builds of large non TIC apartment complexes. The ones around Diamond Jamboree alone have quadrupled in number.

I haven't followed pricing in other cities but I think it was kenkoko who said that Aliso Viejo is getting close to Irvine in prices. In cities outside of Irvine (including qwertustin), I would be wary of purchasing if they were relatively high priced. Again, there could be exceptions, say you live and work in a city like Aliso Viejo so it might make sense to buy now depending on your affordability.

I just think there is too strong of an owner force currently in Irvine that will keep prices more stable. And this will have a ripple effect where buyers would still continue to purchase in Irvine because they see that.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
While the focus here is Chinese FCBs and their economic woes and loss of access to money, just remember that Irvine has a number of other FCB buyers. There is a large population of Korean, Middle Eastern, Jewish, Indian, Pakistani and others.

Additionally, if like Mety said, FCBs hold for MAXROI, if prices are going down in the next 2-5 years, there won't be a huge sell-off, they could wait until prices are back up which will actually slow the price drops... just like during the last downturn. There are conflicting opinions here that FCBs will sell their US holdings first but that doesn't make sense to me considering what we've seen in the past.

And as I mentioned in other threads, the last crash with the shady financing has actually produced a whole new set of buyers that are well financed and thus will be more immune to price drops. There will not be as many distressed properties or a need to sell as owners can afford to ride this out which is another factor that could keep prices from dropping any significant percentage.

Back during the last crash, it was obvious to everyone that people who ninja'd their way into a home would have issues, but... there were things that people who predicted a larger drop didn't foresee, particularly in Irvine:

1. FCBs who didn't use liar loans and would hold during the drop thus keeping the drop slower and smaller.
2. Kick the can squatters who were able to stay in their homes for longer periods thus keeping the foreclosures off the market.
3. Fed intervention with interest rates which actually allowed OARMS and other suspect borrowers to get into payments much more affordable for them. This and programs like HARP also helped keep distressed properties off the market.

I feel that the reason prices are so high now in Irvine is because of what happened the last crash. People saw how other cities dropped much harder and faster than Irvine and how Irvine not only dropped slower and lower, but recovered faster too and so that even made it more enticing to anyone who wanted to "protect" their investment to buy in Irvine. I believe there was a time when demand actually outpaced new construction which is why we saw so many new neighborhoods built in the last 5 years.

Additionally, there are strong job centers in Irvine. The Spectrum and the IBC have tons of job opportunities... so much so that the rental market in Irvine has expanded more in the last 5 years than I have seen previously. Everyone sees all the new apartment complexes The Irvine Company has built off the 405... not only near the Spectrum but also near what I call "Downtown Irvine". If you drive through the IBC (Main/Alton/Barranca/Jamboree) you will see quite a few in-builds of large non TIC apartment complexes. The ones around Diamond Jamboree alone have quadrupled in number.

I haven't followed pricing in other cities but I think it was kenkoko who said that Aliso Viejo is getting close to Irvine in prices. In cities outside of Irvine (including qwertustin), I would be wary of purchasing if they were relatively high priced. Again, there could be exceptions, say you live and work in a city like Aliso Viejo so it might make sense to buy now depending on your affordability.

I just think there is too strong of an owner force currently in Irvine that will keep prices more stable. And this will have a ripple effect where buyers would still continue to purchase in Irvine because they see that.

IHO

While the focus here is Chinese FCBs and their economic woes and loss of access to money, just remember that Irvine has a number of other FCB buyers. There is a large population of Korean, Middle Eastern, Jewish, Indian, Pakistani and others.



This is absolutely true. While we know the purchase power of FCB exist evidently in Irvine, lets not forget organic buyers. The organic buyers that I refer to are those with new families formation. We have parents and immigrant moved to OC and now their kids having families of their own and branch on their own and buy or rent here in Irvine and OC. The other organic buyers are the ones that moved from other states to Irvine. These numbers are huge. Builders have these numbers in hands and they are continue to build SFH and multi families units. Perhaps, we are at middle ground between seller and buyers market advantage. But know this, the FED will push rate further, before cutting rate. And the facts is that housing market is fast to rise and slow to drop.
 
meccos12 said:
Mety said:
Their main goal would be selling it when they are in a good ripe season with MAXROI.

For example, if they bought a $500k condo in 2012 and sold it $750k earlier this year, then they made $250K in 5 years without doing anything but only to pay about $40k-50k tax/HOA/property management/etc.

In my opinion this is MINROI.  The 250K gain is literally negated by the 250K in carrying costs.  If you factor in the opportunity costs this a NEGATIVEROI.

If you wanna get real technical with math numbers then you might be more right. But my point was to say the real deal FCBs wouldn?t really care if their rental properties are occupied or empty. Besides, a $500k condo in 2012 would be more like $950-$1m now (example: Laguna Altura).
 
irvinehomeowner said:
Additionally, if like Mety said, FCBs hold for MAXROI, if prices are going down in the next 2-5 years, there won't be a huge sell-off, they could wait until prices are back up which will actually slow the price drops... just like during the last downturn. There are conflicting opinions here that FCBs will sell their US holdings first but that doesn't make sense to me considering what we've seen in the past.

Just to clearify, I myself don?t know if FCBs will hold or sell soon. I?ve only said they are rich as heck, but haven?t really said they wouldn?t sell their properties.

I personally think the MAXROI season was earlier this year so this MAXROI does not really apply any longer for awhile.
 
There was a wave of foreclosures back in 2008.  Do you see this happening again?
I don't see it.

Can we agree that this slowdown won't be as big as 2008? 
And if the 2008 slowdown was marked at 20% for Irvine, then this slowdown should be max 10%.
 
Mety said:
If you wanna get real technical with math numbers then you might be more right. But my point was to say the real deal FCBs wouldn?t really care if their rental properties are occupied or empty. Besides, a $500k condo in 2012 would be more like $950-$1m now (example: Laguna Altura).

Im not trying to get technical but Im just saying it doesnt make any sense to make 250K, while spending 250K and tying up 500K in the process. 
Its interesting to think that a FCB would care so much about selling at peak prices for maximal $, but not care about the $ they are leaving on the table by not renting.  To me a dollar is a dollar, but perhaps its different for FCBs. 
BTW there are no Irvine condos that appreciated 100% since 2012, even Laguna Altura.  I believe most of those condos you are referring to when up about 50%.     
 
zubs said:
There was a wave of foreclosures back in 2008.  Do you see this happening again?
I don't see it.

Can we agree that this slowdown won't be as big as 2008? 
And if the 2008 slowdown was marked at 20% for Irvine, then this slowdown should be max 10%.

Agree.  I do not think this slowdown will be anything similar to the 2008 crash. 
Fortunately, I was not around for the 2008 crash, but I thought Irvine fell more than 20%.  Regardless, I highly doubt this slowdown will resemble anything like the last crash. 
 
meccos12 said:
Mety said:
If you wanna get real technical with math numbers then you might be more right. But my point was to say the real deal FCBs wouldn?t really care if their rental properties are occupied or empty. Besides, a $500k condo in 2012 would be more like $950-$1m now (example: Laguna Altura).

Im not trying to get technical but Im just saying it doesnt make any sense to make 250K, while spending 250K and tying up 500K in the process. 
Its interesting to think that a FCB would care so much about selling at peak prices for maximal $, but not care about the $ they are leaving on the table by not renting.  To me a dollar is a dollar, but perhaps its different for FCBs. 
BTW there are no Irvine condos that appreciated 100% since 2012, even Laguna Altura.  I believe most of those condos you are referring to when up about 50%.   

Well, me no FCB so I don?t know either. I was just saying maybe that?s how they would think? I could be 100% wrong.
 
meccos12 said:
zubs said:
There was a wave of foreclosures back in 2008.  Do you see this happening again?
I don't see it.

Can we agree that this slowdown won't be as big as 2008? 
And if the 2008 slowdown was marked at 20% for Irvine, then this slowdown should be max 10%.

Agree.  I do not think this slowdown will be anything similar to the 2008 crash. 
Fortunately, I was not around for the 2008 crash, but I thought Irvine fell more than 20%.  Regardless, I highly doubt this slowdown will resemble anything like the last crash.

Then that goes all the way back to IHO?s question. If there is only 5-10% drop, is it worth waiting? My answer is YES. Because less money is less money even at 1% drop AND there are more chance of getting even MORE discount when it?s buyers? market.

BUT I?m not so sure how you guys are so confident about how the next downturn will not be anything like 2008. Yes there were more ninja loans back then and not qualified people were buying, etc. but did you guys expect it would be THAT bad then? Something that never happened in history happened.

 
eyephone said:
I believe if the Dems can reach a tax agreement to lift the salt cap. The demand for RE would increase.

Then everyone should buy NOW... if SALT cap is lifted?
 
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