Who is waiting for Orchard Hills?

[Irvinecommuter]

As long as other builders like 5 Points can see the true value in lot size, at least there will be an alternative when it comes to new builds. But that's the problem, TIC doesn't let other developers in very often.

I could be wrong, but I think Pavillion Park is just a test market for 5P to see how much buyers are willing to pay for extra lot size.  And once they do they all their analysis and calculation and figure out they are better off profit wise with smaller lot size and the demand are there, I'm afraid they will follow TIC in doing smaller lot size.

If you are really after lot size, in every development, there will always be a few that would have a bigger lot size (we were able to get a >5000 sq ft lot on a development that has a 3000-4000 sq ft normal lot size with very little premium in the price -- the shape of the lot though is little odd but we can make it work).

Also, with PP...the SFR/Detached condo below $1 M are on small lots as well.  That's one of the reasons why I didn't care for them that much  They do have driveways but the lot size is basically the same and the floorplans were not appealing to me. 

 

[bones]

.

 

[jmoney74]

Depends on which builder.  Birchtrail seems to be the smallest lot size of the sub 1M homes.

Taylor Morrison.. I'm pretty sure some of them had a pool in the backyard if I'm not mistaken. 

Roundtree - My backard is a good size.. just sayin. 

 

[irvinehomeowner]

@IrvineCommuter (<-- is that direct enough?):

When did I say "yard is key"?

What I've said is lot size is important, which could indirectly mean you have a bigger yard, but it could also mean you have a driveway, you have a bigger home footprint, you have more distance between your neighbors, you actually have a side yard on both sides of your house, you have room to expand your house if needed, you could decide you want your own pool... should I continue?

You keep saying "buyers don't agree with you" when in fact that's not entirely true. If it were, PP homes with the bigger lots within the same tract would not have a premium or sell faster. People wouldn't choose to buy PP homes with large lots despite the lack of an onsite Elementary or a playground with no shade (heh). Even in your beloved Stonegate, the SFRs on the bigger lots were the ones that people wanted.

You are using that broad brush again and rolling in the other factors of why TIC sells their homes to prove to yourself (because it's not convincing me) why small lots are acceptable. I always counter that it's not the acceptance of small lots as a reason as to why those homes sell and that at the higher price points, those other benefits diminish because land value becomes important in the $1m+ range (do you still think that land value is worth less than structure value?).

Your problem is you can't seem to separate the location/proximity benefit from the lot size one.  And whenever I talk just about lot size, you keep bringing in the other things to "prove" your point. Are you going to deny that?

Other than your obsession with Saratoga sales figures, what proof do you have that "buyers" don't think lot size (not yard) is important? In Saratoga, do the homes with the bigger "lot" in the same location cost more? Do they move faster?

I will make this argument one more time: you may not love a yard, and your insistence on that point and your lack of ability to see that it does matter to others makes me really doubt your claim that you actually see the benefit of it. It's shocking I know but not everyone has the inability to logically separate reasoning in order to prove their point.

To be clear... it's about lot size, not yard size. Yard size can be a side benefit of a bigger lot but that's not the totality of my point. I get that you don't want to deal with a yard and its maintenance issues and costs, but I don't understand you thinking that "buyers don't agree" that lot size is important. Hence the "shrimp paste" comment, I guess it's a benefit to be that close to your neighbors because you can walk to the school and the park.

P.S. On the whole walkability thing. To me, for Elementary school kids, that's not a big concern because I would prefer to drive them to school. It's nice to have the school nearby because it's like another park, but I don't want my 5 to 11 year old kids walking out and about by themselves even if it is Irvine. And if the tree-huggers hate me for that, build an EV minivan I can fit into.

 

[aquabliss]

Look at the lot sizes in the top right of the site map attached.  These are the PP Whistler Phase 4a/4b homes (4a is releasing this weekend). 

Most of these lots are over 5,000 sq ft and you can still get a plan 1 or plan 2 for under $1M.  These aren't Detached condos, normal SFR with full driveways.

 

[jmoney74]

I might have to add to the psychology of moving to a new home.  First time home buyers might not care.. since they didn't have it before.  So things like yard size or a driveway might not mean much to them.. let alone decent curb appeal.

I came over from West Irvine on shared wall condo/townhome with only a front patio and shared driveway.  I checked out SG a few years ago and it just wasn't worth the move.  Now for a first time home buyer or someone that came from a small condo.. then maybe.  I just find it hard for someone to move into a zero lot no driveway home after they've had it.  my two cents.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I might have to add to the psychology of moving to a new home.  First time home buyers might not care.. since they didn't have it before.  So things like yard size or a driveway might not mean much to them.. let alone decent curb appeal.

I came over from West Irvine on shared wall condo/townhome with only a front patio and shared driveway.  I checked out SG a few years ago and it just wasn't worth the move.  Now for a first time home buyer or someone that came from a small condo.. then maybe.  I just find it hard for someone to move into a zero lot no driveway home after they've had it.  my two cents.

That was worth more than two cents. Good point jmoney.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

What I've said is lot size is important, which could indirectly mean you have a bigger yard, but it could also mean you have a driveway, you have a bigger home footprint, you have more distance between your neighbors, you actually have a side yard on both sides of your house, you have room to expand your house if needed, you could decide you want your own pool... should I continue?

So basically, a bigger yard.

You keep saying "buyers don't agree with you" when in fact that's not entirely true. If it were, PP homes with the bigger lots within the same tract would not have a premium or sell faster. People wouldn't choose to buy PP homes with large lots despite the lack of an onsite Elementary or a playground with no shade (heh). Even in your beloved Stonegate, the SFRs on the bigger lots were the ones that people wanted.

Yes...homes with premium lots often sell faster and more expensive but that generally because there are no many premium lots and there is a portion of buyers who like larger yards. 

But there are also plenty of people who are buying at their max and are willing to give up a yard or a driveway if the price is lower.

Other than your obsession with Saratoga sales figures, what proof do you have that "buyers" don't think lot size (not yard) is important? In Saratoga, do the homes with the bigger "lot" in the same location cost more? Do they move faster?

Actually, the homes in Saratoga with a driveway (and lot premium) have taken longer to sell.  These three all have driveways (and a lot premium) are in Saratoga I and already built out...pending sale.  Meanwhile, almost all of Saratoga II have sold out (without lot premiums) have sold out.
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Irvine/120-Fairhaven-92620/unit-98/home/50276623http://www.redfin.com/CA/Irvine/122-Fairhaven-92620/unit-97/home/49878999http://www.redfin.com/CA/Irvine/121-Fairhaven-92620/unit-111/home/49873867

I know from personal experience that the 2X (corner lot) models were not selling as fast as the regular model 2 because of the price difference.

Also, I have said about a million times.  All thing equal, a large lot size is more desirable and cost more.  That's what makes it a premium...just like a school district or community park. 

You are using that broad brush again and rolling in the other factors of why TIC sells their homes to prove to yourself (because it's not convincing me) why small lots are acceptable. I always counter that it's not the acceptance of small lots as a reason as to why those homes sell and that at the higher price points, those other benefits diminish because land value becomes important in the $1m+ range

I am totally confused by this argument.  The acceptance of a small lot is not a reason why SG homes sell...it is a compromise made by the buyers in return for other benefits and price. 

(do you still think that land value is worth less than structure value?).

You are confusing me with another poster (I saw that discussion point...I didn't make the argument).

Your problem is you can't seem to separate the location/proximity benefit from the lot size one.  And whenever I talk just about lot size, you keep bringing in the other things to "prove" your point. Are you going to deny that?

What is your point on lot size?  Larger lot sizes are a premium and benefit?  Yes, I agree (and have agreed with that repeatedly).  The question is whether it is a premium that buyers are willing to pay for and how much are they willing to pay.

I will make this argument one more time: you may not love a yard, and your insistence on that point and your lack of ability to see that it does matter to others makes me really doubt your claim that you actually see the benefit of it. It's shocking I know but not everyone has the inability to logically separate reasoning in order to prove their point.

When have I ever made this argument.  How many times have I already said that it is a premium and makes the house more desirable.  On the contrary, it is you who keep talking about how people who don't wish to pay a premium for a larger yard need to "convince" or "prove" it to themselves that their decision is right.   

 

[bones]

[quo.

 

[jmoney74]

I already read some other threads where IC made the decision to move to SG.. weren't many options then.  Now there are.  You love SG, we get it.  Just telling you that people still prefer more space.  Some people will buy IC no matter what.. we've seen that.  Does that make it the right choice?  no right or wrong in this.. just preference.  You laid out a few things you didn't like about PP:

1.  no trees (now has a bunch of trees)
2.  No grass (now tons of grass)
3.  15 min extra drive to Woodbury town center (you must have a long commute when you want to go to Costco and Target huh?) 

Then you went into not caring about lot size or a driveway.  Oh well.. your choice again.  What else?  Oh, you like more density.  Ok..

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I might have to add to the psychology of moving to a new home.  First time home buyers might not care.. since they didn't have it before.  So things like yard size or a driveway might not mean much to them.. let alone decent curb appeal.

I came over from West Irvine on shared wall condo/townhome with only a front patio and shared driveway.  I checked out SG a few years ago and it just wasn't worth the move.  Now for a first time home buyer or someone that came from a small condo.. then maybe.  I just find it hard for someone to move into a zero lot no driveway home after they've had it.  my two cents.

That may be the case and one certain learns to appreciate certain things that you would never consider while buying a house.

But again, the issue isn't whether I would like a driveway or if I think a bigger backyard is more desirable.  The question is whether I am willing to give those things up to get things that I care for more.  The things on the top of my list were 1) schools, 2) location, and 3) community amenities.  Now...for me to get those three things in my price list, I had to give up a driveway and a bigger lot size. 

I have discussions with a lot of people in a similar position and many of them go through a similar decision making process.

 

[bones]

.

 

[jmoney74]

I might have to add to the psychology of moving to a new home.  First time home buyers might not care.. since they didn't have it before.  So things like yard size or a driveway might not mean much to them.. let alone decent curb appeal.

I came over from West Irvine on shared wall condo/townhome with only a front patio and shared driveway.  I checked out SG a few years ago and it just wasn't worth the move.  Now for a first time home buyer or someone that came from a small condo.. then maybe.  I just find it hard for someone to move into a zero lot no driveway home after they've had it.  my two cents.

That may be the case and one certain learns to appreciate certain things that you would never consider while buying a house.

But again, the issue isn't whether I would like a driveway or if I think a bigger backyard is more desirable.  The question is whether I am willing to give those things up to get things that I care for more.  The things on the top of my list were 1) schools, 2) location, and 3) community amenities.  Now...for me to get those three things in my price list, I had to give up a driveway and a bigger lot size. 

I have discussions with a lot of people in a similar position and many of them go through a similar decision making process.

outside of the school.. amenities are pretty much the same.  Unless the small shade in the park is your thing?  Location.. you wanna go back into the 15 extra minutes to woodbury town center debate? 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I already read some other threads where IC made the decision to move to SG.. weren't many options then.  Now there are.  You love SG, we get it.  Just telling you that people still prefer more space.  Some people will buy IC no matter what.. we've seen that.  Does that make it the right choice?  no right or wrong in this.. just preference.  You laid out a few things you didn't like about PP:

1.  no trees (now has a bunch of trees)
2.  No grass (now tons of grass)
3.  15 min extra drive to Woodbury town center (you must have a long commute when you want to go to Costco and Target huh?) 

Then you went into not caring about lot size or a driveway.  Oh well.. your choice again.  What else?  Oh, you like more density.  Ok..

The ones you listed are relatively minor.  The last one is probably the "most" important but more as to the ability to bike or walk to Woodbury Town Center than the driving.  I have also said in other threads that a new retail center is going in near PP and PS and depending on the stores there, it may be that PP would have better access to retail once that opens (although that was the selling point for PS and the center still hasn't opened).

I used live near OH and loved it there.  OH shopping center is great and the area is much closer to places where I want to go (Target, Costco, District, Diamond Jamboree).  SG is still too far south for my taste.

The key for me in like SG is that 1) it is in Irvine, 2) Stonegate Elementary is an excellent school that is very close, 3) community parks, and 4) relative distance to retail and shopping (acceptable...not great).

As for the home, I like the layout of the floor plan and the ability to add a conservatory to increase living space (would not have bought there if that was not an option).  The yard was a little small but that was really not a consideration for either my wife or me.  In fact, as we are dealing with landscaping now...the yard is annoying to me right now. 

Do I like more density?  Not necessarily.  But if having more density means that the house was $100K cheaper...I'm fine with it. 

But that's the thing about this whole discussion, at no point have I ever "trashed" PP.  I just laid out things I don't care for when I went there.  I toured the models/homes at  PP that were in my price range and found them lacking.  I did like some of the plans (Rosemist for example) but they were out of my price range anyways so it didn't matter.     

On the contrary, people like IHO keep talking about how bad SG is and that people are essential dumb to buy there.  That leaves out no space for preference.  Even with your comment about "there is nothing to like at SG" (admittedly it could have been in jest) was a little weird to me.  Essentially, everytime I bring up things I like about SG and why I bought there, I am told that those things are useless and that I had to "convince" myself that I did fine. 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I already read some other threads where IC made the decision to move to SG.. weren't many options then.  Now there are.  You love SG, we get it.  Just telling you that people still prefer more space.  Some people will buy IC no matter what.. we've seen that.  Does that make it the right choice?  no right or wrong in this.. just preference.  You laid out a few things you didn't like about PP:

1.  no trees (now has a bunch of trees)
2.  No grass (now tons of grass)
3.  15 min extra drive to Woodbury town center (you must have a long commute when you want to go to Costco and Target huh?) 

Then you went into not caring about lot size or a driveway.  Oh well.. your choice again.  What else?  Oh, you like more density.  Ok..

No he doesn't love Stonegate. He loves Saratoga. He disses Mendocino bc it has a driveway even though it's Ipac product. That's why all this back and forth is stupid. He can't see past anything that doesn't start and end with shitoga.

I don't "love" any thing.  I like my house and I like the Saratoga plan.  We considered buying Mendocino but it moved out of our price range and the driveway made the floorplan a little weird for me. 

I haven't dissed any plans...I have repeatedly stated that Saratoga is way overpriced. 

 

[jmoney74]

alright IC.. there you have it.  You are a unique one in the bunch.  SG is a great place.. no knocking it. 

I know a guy just like you.. had to justify a lot.  kudos. 

 

[irvinehomeowner]

What I've said is lot size is important, which could indirectly mean you have a bigger yard, but it could also mean you have a driveway, you have a bigger home footprint, you have more distance between your neighbors, you actually have a side yard on both sides of your house, you have room to expand your house if needed, you could decide you want your own pool... should I continue?

So basically, a bigger yard.

And that's what I mean by purposely being obtuse. A bigger house footprint does not necessarily mean a bigger yard, nor does a driveway, nor does more room between neighbors. You just illustrated how flawed your method of countering is... good job.

But there are also plenty of people who are buying at their max and are willing to give up a yard or a driveway if the price is lower.

Agreed. However, if more people made it point not to accept compromises to buy at their max and buy elsewhere, that could change things.

Actually, the homes in Saratoga with a driveway (and lot premium) have taken longer to sell.  These three all have driveways (and a lot premium) are in Saratoga I and already built out...pending sale.  Meanwhile, almost all of Saratoga II have sold out (without lot premiums) have sold out.
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Irvine/120-Fairhaven-92620/unit-98/home/50276623http://www.redfin.com/CA/Irvine/122-Fairhaven-92620/unit-97/home/49878999http://www.redfin.com/CA/Irvine/121-Fairhaven-92620/unit-111/home/49873867

I know from personal experience that the 2X (corner lot) models were not selling as fast as the regular model 2 because of the price difference.

So are you going to roll in price as the reason why these larger lots don't sell? Do you see where I'm going here?

Also, I have said about a million times.  All thing equal, a large lot size is more desirable and cost more.

Not necessarily. Bigger lots cost the same, you have to buy in a different hood... as PP has "demonstrated".

(do you still think that land value is worth less than structure value?).

You are confusing me with another poster (I saw that discussion point...I didn't make the argument).

Is this not you?

In the long run land is more valuable than the house so I'd prefer PP due to the larger lot sizes. At the moment Stonegate is more centrally located but once the whole Great Park retail and schools are built they might be more tied in that regard.

slightly flawed in that developed land is more valuable.  The majority of the value of the home comes from the enclosed structure.  The bigger yard is a plus but it's not super significant.  Factoring in the extra cost of landscaping and maintenance, I think it's a wash.

I have no facts to base this by I think SG will be worth more $/square feet vs. PP in 10 years.

If not I apologize but it had your name attached to it.

When have I ever made this argument.  How many times have I already said that it is a premium and makes the house more desirable.

You keep saying that's what you're saying, but then right after you say that, you say how it's a "wash" or that "buyer's don't agree" or that "sales at Stonegate prove otherwise".

It's like you're shaking my hand and then slapping me with the other one.

On the contrary, it is you who keep talking about how people who don't wish to pay a premium for a larger yard need to "convince" or "prove" it to themselves that their decision is right.

Waitaminnut. Isn't that the same thing you say?  Buyers have to compromise, and to do so, they need to convince or prove to themselves that the compromise is right.

What I'm saying is that if more buyers did NOT compromise, they wouldn't have to. But like jmoney said, first time home buyers may not want to or care... and that's why you see more trepidation at the $1m+ price point because buyers don't want to compromise... and that was my *point the whole time about the Orchard Hills SFRs that are $1m+*... it was you who kept bringing in this whole slew of product less than $1m.

And that brings us back around to what probably got you all in a hissy:

And only with the sub $1m set. People with budgets over $1m aren't interested. Case in point: Arcadia and Sausalito. Arcadia sold well before PP opened and people had other options.

And that was my point when I first talked about lot size. If you're paying $1m+, that does become a consideration.

If you're buying an attached/detached condo, it's easy to say you don't care about lot size... because you don't have one.

You're talking about a product you may not even be familiar with. Anyone who is looking at the bigger SFRs in Orchard Hills is looking at $1m+ homes and at that price range, lot size matters.

Do you get it yet?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I might have to add to the psychology of moving to a new home.  First time home buyers might not care.. since they didn't have it before.  So things like yard size or a driveway might not mean much to them.. let alone decent curb appeal.

I came over from West Irvine on shared wall condo/townhome with only a front patio and shared driveway.  I checked out SG a few years ago and it just wasn't worth the move.  Now for a first time home buyer or someone that came from a small condo.. then maybe.  I just find it hard for someone to move into a zero lot no driveway home after they've had it.  my two cents.

That may be the case and one certain learns to appreciate certain things that you would never consider while buying a house.

But again, the issue isn't whether I would like a driveway or if I think a bigger backyard is more desirable.  The question is whether I am willing to give those things up to get things that I care for more.  The things on the top of my list were 1) schools, 2) location, and 3) community amenities.  Now...for me to get those three things in my price list, I had to give up a driveway and a bigger lot size. 

I have discussions with a lot of people in a similar position and many of them go through a similar decision making process.

outside of the school.. amenities are pretty much the same.  Unless the small shade in the park is your thing?  Location.. you wanna go back into the 15 extra minutes to woodbury town center debate?

Amnenities aren't really the same from what I saw.  PP basically centralized everything with one big park and a playground nearby.  The pocket parks at SG are really cool IMO.  I can walk there from my house in 5 minutes with my daughter.  The school is kinda of a big deal.

But again, this isn't about PP being bad.  I have nothing against PP...I never had.  There are something about it that I didn't really care for when I went there but I don't think people are weird for buying there.  It's a perfectly acceptable alternative to SG or CV.  Just like I don't care for CV because it's close to the freeway but that doesn't mean I think people are crazy to buy there.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

alright IC.. there you have it.  You are a unique one in the bunch.  SG is a great place.. no knocking it. 

I know a guy just like you.. had to justify a lot.  kudos. 

Justify what?  I just thought it was weird that people kept referring to it like as if it was the worst place to buy. 

 

[jmoney74]

alright IC.. there you have it.  You are a unique one in the bunch.  SG is a great place.. no knocking it. 

I know a guy just like you.. had to justify a lot.  kudos. 

Justify what?  I just thought it was weird that people kept referring to it like as if it was the worst place to buy.

No.. they were just clowning on it because you kept trying to justify your purchase.