Waiting to catch a wave? Surge of REO listings is unlikely.

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
[quote author="Geotpf" date=1250824623]Maybe choice 1 is it then. That is completely possible, I suppose. Seems weird, though-why would ajoining counties in the same state have such a difference in the way REOs are handled? In any case, I give up, you are right, I'm wrong. This will be my last post in this thread.</blockquote>
They are not handled differently.



Zip Code 92009 for Carlsbad which Jim the Realtor farms:

Foreclosure Radar is showing 43 REOs.

I compare the addresses with Redfin and 8 of the 43 REOs are listed for sale.

That isn't half and it is only one zip code, but my guess is that Jim is incorrect.
 
[quote author="Geotpf" date=1250824623]Maybe choice 1 is it then. That is completely possible, I suppose. Seems weird, though-why would ajoining counties in the same state have such a difference in the way REOs are handled? In any case, I give up, you are right, I'm wrong. This will be my last post in this thread.</blockquote>
Whoah... don't go AZDave on us.



You're confusing me, earlier you said you understood... then you say that you don't understand and now you are saying you are wrong.



I see no difference between counties... the math is simple... number of REOs vs number of REOs on the market. Add in those pseudo REOs and it looks even worse.
 
[quote author="Geotpf" date=1250815868][quote author="Anonymous" date=1250813256][quote author="Geotpf" date=1250807471]



I thought (but am probably wrong here, apparently), that once they foreclosed, they had to bring it on their books at the lower price, but if the loan was current, and possibly even just in default, they could value it at book value. I guess you are saying they don't have to do that until they actually sell the property. Personally, I think they should be forced to value everything at mark-to-market. But you are right I don't understand all the nuances here.



It's still stupid. The values of these properties will go down and costs will go up. A vacant house will eventually get trashed by vandals or damaged due to weather or pests, lowering it's value. Property taxes, maintenance, etc. will have to be paid.</blockquote>


Banks don't own a lot of houses (ie. REO'd already). They do however, own a whole lot of loans, which they are free to sell to other people in the best possible light ...



<A href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=an.54GOuVxe4">Mortgage-Bond Prices Reflect Errors, Amherst Says (Update2) </A></blockquote>


This was the argument I have been making (that the banks haven't REOed a lot of properties, that the real shadow inventory is in the pre-foreclosures that are in default but not taken back from the bank) throughout the thread. graphrix and others have said that this is wrong and I'm ignorant and stupid and not listening to them. So, apparently you are wrong and ignorant and stupid and not listening to them as well.</blockquote>


There are some interesting graphs over on the Calculated Risk blogs on this topic. For example:

<A href="http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/08/mba-forecasts-foreclosures-to-peak-at.html">http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/08/mba-forecasts-foreclosures-to-peak-at.html</A>
 
[quote author="Geotpf" date=1250817924][quote author="25inIrvine" date=1250816424]Geotpf...why does it have to be one or the other? What if it is both the number of REO's that Graph has listed up above that banks own and are not sold yet and IN ADDITION to that there is a massive amount of preforeclosures coming as well?



I understand there is a massive amount of preforeclosures out there that banks are purposely stalling on, but there is also a massive amount of homes the banks currently own that have not been sold yet.</blockquote>


Using Jim the Realtor's figures for San Deigo County, he calculated that the number of people in default but not yet foreclosed is approximately<strong> ten times </strong>the number of REOs not on the market (his exact figures were 11,700 NODs, 8,595 NOTs, and 4,161 REOs, with approximately half of those REOs on the market, so 11,700+8,595=20,295 vs 4,161/2=2,081). He also thought that most of the REOs not on the market were actively being prepped to be put on the market (as opposed to being held off the market on a permanent or semi-permanent basis), and he also said that the number of REO properties was dropping (indicating they were being sold).



So, one of the following has to be true:



1. There is something fundamentally different between San Deigo County and Orange (and now Riverside) Counties. Of course, if this is being done for accounting/mark-to-market/capital ratio reasons, that doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't make much sense otherwise anyways, IMHO.

2. Jim is wrong.

3. graphix is wrong.</blockquote>


San Diego is a year ahead of the curve. They bubbled sooner and collapsed sooner. They are were OC will be this time next year. She Rich's post on <a href="http://piggington.com/shambling_towards_though_more_recently_from_affordability">Piggington's recently. </a>



That said, look at the numbers Jim has, 4000+ REOs, 20000 in the pipe. Only 50% of REO currently listed. 1+ months of the REOS, 3 months of REOs backlogged from even foreclosing. Another 4 months worth of REOs in the pipe. Another month's worth of sales piling the pipe every month. As Jim said in another posting, REOs ARE the market.



An Organic sellers that want to move are screwed.
 
<a href="http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/20/has-mortgage-modification-failed/">Has Mortgage Modification failed?</a>



http://rortybomb.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/loan-mod-chart.jpg



Obama?s mortgage modification plan, HAMP (Home Afforable Modification Program), isn?t working very well. Designed to help prevent foreclosures by incentivizing and giving legal protection to previously indifferent middle-men servicers it isn?t producing anywhere near the number of modifications that were anticipated. Is it likely to work in the future? My guess is no. Let?s discuss some reasons why.



Servicers Gaming the System Over the past few months, more and more stories have come out about servicers finding ways to line their pockets while consumers and investors are getting shortchanged. The one that brought the gaming issue to everyone?s attention is Peter Goodman?s article in the New York Times. Here are my favorite three since then:



Story One, Financial Times:

<blockquote>

JPMorgan Chase, one of the first mega banks to champion the national home loan modification effort, has struck a sour chord with some investors over the risk of moral hazard posed by certain loan modifications.



Chase Mortgage, as servicer of several Washington Mutual option ARM securitizations it inherited last year in acquiring WAMU, has in several cases modified borrower loan payments to a rate that essentially equals its unusually high servicing fee, according to an analysis by Debtwire ABS. Simultaneously, Chase is cutting off the cash flow to the trust that owns the mortgage. In some cases, Chase is collecting more than half of a borrower?s monthly payment as its fee.</blockquote>


Story Two, Credit Slips

<blockquote>

Countrywide Home Loans (which is now part of Bank of America) has been the subject of proceedings in several bankruptcy courts because of the shoddy recordkeeping behind their claims in bankruptcy cases. Judge Marilyn Shea-Stonum of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Ohio recently sanctioned Countrywide for its conduct in these cases?The resulting opinion makes extensive reference to Credit Slips regular blogger Katie Porter and guest blogger Tara Twomey?s excellent Mortgage Study that documented the extent to which bankruptcy claims by mortgage servicers were often erroneous and not supported by evidence. Specifically, the court adopted Porter?s recommendation from a Texas Law Review article that mortgage servicers should disclose the amounts they are owed based on a standard form. Judge Shea-Stonum found that such a requirement would prevent future misconduct by Countrywide.</blockquote>


Mary Kane, Washington Independent



<blockquote> Even as the Obama administration presses the lending industry to get more mortgage loans modified, the practice of forcing borrowers to sign away their legal rights in order to get their loans reworked is a tactic that some servicers just won?t give up on?



In a dramatic confrontation last July, Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, told representatives of Bank of America to get rid of waivers in their agreements. His pronouncement came after Bank of America representatives denied they were using the waivers ? and Julia Gordon, senior policy counsel at the Center for Responsible Lending, produced one from her briefcase.</blockquote>


Check out those stories. The first has the servicers set the payment to maximize their fees, and not anything beyond (to make sure very poor and desperate mortgage holders are able to pay each month), making sure their interests are above the lender?s ones. The second one shows that it is very difficult to determine incompetence from maliciousness with the way that servicers are handling their documents on the borrowers end. And the third would be a great piece of classic comedy if it wasn?t so terrible. I bet these guys sleep like babies at night too.



The servicer?s interests are their own ? and if they can rent-seek at the expense of the parties at either end, ?nudging? them with $1,000 isn?t going to make a big difference.



Redefault Risk There?s another story where the servicers aren?t modifying loans because it isn?t profitable for the lenders. There?s a very influencial Boston Federal Reserve paper by Manuel Adelino, Kristopher Gerardi, and Paul S. Willen titled ?Why Don?t Lenders Renegotiate More Home Mortgages? Redefaults, Self-Cures, and Securitization.? They point out that, according to their regressions, redefault risk is very high ? the chances that even under a modification there will still be a foreclosures, so why not foreclosure immediately?



I?d recommend Levitin?s critique (Part 1, Part 2), notably that the securitization regression doesn?t control for type of modification, specifically they don?t variable whether or not the modification involved principal reduction, which is probably does for the on-book loans and not for the off-book loans.



But regardless, this is a valid argument as U3 unemployment starts its final march to 10% we are going to see consumers become riskier and riskier, and that will be a problem for modification that will get worse before it gets better.



General Inexperience Servicers were never designed to do this kind of work; they don?t underwrite, and paying them $1,000 isn?t going to give them the experience needed for underwriting. It?s hard work that requires experience and dedication, skills that we don?t have currently. (Isn?t it amazing with the amount of money we?ve put into the real estate finance sector over the past decade we have a giant labor surplus of people who can bundle mortgages into bonds but nobody who can actually underwrite a mortgages well?)



But isn?t it at least possible that as the sophistication of the servicers increase, they?ll become equally good at learning how to game the system? I don?t mean this as a gotcha point, because I think it is the fundamental problem here, and there isn?t any way to break it. The servicers get paid when they have to get involved, and learning the contracts better will give them more reasons to get involved.



It?s been know for several years now that this was a weak spot in the mortgage backed security instruments. In the words of the creator of this instrument, Lewis Ranieri in 2008: ? The problem now with the size of securitization and so many loans are not in the hands of a portfolio lender but in a security where structurally nobody is acting as the fiduciary. And part of our dilemma here is ?who is going to make the decision on how to restructure around a credible borrower and is anybody paying that person to make that decision?? ? have to cut the gordian knot of the securitization of these loans because otherwise if we keep letting these things go into foreclosure it?s a feedback loop where it will ultimately crush the consumer economy.?



He?s right of course; the people we are trying to ?nudge? into acting as the fiduciary are going to be more than happy to rent-seek these instruments while they crush the consumer economy. This ?gordian knot? has to be broken, but it?ll need to be done outside the instruments ? in the bankruptcy court.
 
It's been a depressing night. I've mistakenly been looking through ForeclosureRadar and using Redfin and ListingBook for MLS.



ForeclosureRadar, yep, homes I like, or at least have the potential to like. Right range of square footage, right size range of yard, right area, no pools, etc.



The depressing part. They're not listed. The bulk of them. One or two here or there maybe, but in general. Nothing. Nada. Look at the loan info, no wonder, they're so upside down it isn't going to make any difference.



Home after home, six months to year or more before it comes back to the market.
 
[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1250855198]It's been a depressing night. I've mistakenly been looking through ForeclosureRadar and using Redfin and ListingBook for MLS.



ForeclosureRadar, yep, homes I like, or at least have the potential to like. Right range of square footage, right size range of yard, right area, no pools, etc.



The depressing part. They're not listed. The bulk of them. One or two here or there maybe, but in general. Nothing. Nada. Look at the loan info, no wonder, they're so upside down it isn't going to make any difference.



Home after home, six months to year or more before it comes back to the market.</blockquote>


You just need to...



http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/8/18/128950953411166179.jpg



The numbers are not what Jim the Realtor says they are...



http://i25.tinypic.com/dxzr5g.jpg



Even though the numbers are what they say they are. Too bad you understand capital ratios, and what a clusterfawk business mergers/acquisitions are like. I know... it doesn't make sense, but for those that understand it... it makes complete sense. Of course I wouldn't want to believe it either, even if I studied the 90s bust, and bought a home in the last few months, because if I studied the 90s bust and understood those those whole capital ratio things... then I would have to accept the fact that I am going to be fawked for the next three years.
 
<a href="http://www.thestreet.com/story/10586042/1/banks-foreclosure-pain-worsens-with-us-job-losses.html">http://www.thestreet.com/story/10586042/1/banks-foreclosure-pain-worsens-with-us-job-losses.html</a>
 
<a href="http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/hidden-backlog-of-foreclosures.html">Mish's take on the Pent Up Wave of Foreclosures.</a>



Mish gets this one right (many other posts of his turn strangely wrong when he reaches the wrong conclusion).



<blockquote>RealtyTrac's Sharga says "We don't see much improvement until 2011." With that, mainsteam thought is staring to approach the 2102 possible bottom I suggested two years ago. At the time, no one thought home prices would fall for this long. Perhaps I will turn out to be an optimist.

</blockquote>
 
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32513275/ns/business-personal_finance">Without relief, mortgage mess will only worsen</a>



Our story last week on the failure of the government's mortgage relief efforts drew a flood of mail from homeowners facing default and foreclosure. Once again, dozens of readers report spending months of fruitless effort trying to contact lenders, only to be shuttled from one rep to another, often getting conflicting advice.



I am among the millions that are having a hard time getting a loan modification through my bank ? What I don't understand is why are the lenders holding out? ? In the next 5 to 10 years it'll be more Americans with bad credit than good. Then who will be able to get any credit for anything?

? Berni B., address withheld.



Every time we write about this topic, our inbox floods with mail from readers trying to catch a break on their mortgage. Once again, dozens of readers report spending months of fruitless effort trying to contact lenders, only to be shuttled from one rep to another, often getting conflicting advice, eventually hitting the same dead end. Some of these readers report that, rather than cutting payments to reflect the recent drop in interest rates, lenders are offering to suspend payments for a few months ? and then raise their monthly payment to make up the difference. That's hardly relief.



Despite assurance from lenders and mortgage servicers that they are doing everything possible to slow the foreclosure rate, it just isn?t working. As the Mortgage Bankers Association reported last week, the latest data show the pace of foreclosures and defaults hit a record in the second quarter. Separate data show the rise continued in July ? from levels that were already substantially higher than a year ago.

<strong>

Nearly two years after the government launched its first unsuccessful mortgage relief effort, Hope Now, some 13 percent of homeowners with mortgages are either in default or headed for foreclosure. A third now owe more than their house is worth; one recent research report figures that will rise to 50 percent by 2011 unless more aggressive measures are taken.</strong>



I can?t speak for lenders ? I have no idea why they aren?t moving more quickly to modify loans. There are many possible reasons ? one of which is that they are hoping that homeowners will somehow figure out a way to keep making payments. Some readers report they are spending down their retirement savings while they try to work out a new loan.



Whatever the reason, the current process just isn?t working. As you point out, aside from agony each family goes through when it loses a home, their credit is destroyed. That?s not a great formula for getting a consumer-driven economy out of recession.



It?s also not going to help the housing market get back on its feet. Every time a foreclosed home is sold ? either in a distressed sale or at an auction ? that sale drags down the price of every other ?comparable? home in the neighborhood. That puts more homeowners ?underwater? on their mortgages, leading to more defaults and foreclosures, pulling home prices lower still.



It?s a vicious downward cycle. And until the lending industry or the government figures out a real solution, it?s hard to see how the economy can get back on its feet. No matter what Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke says.
 
Bottom is bottom.



Nothing is going to change that. The only thing that will stop it is when owning is less expensive than renting and renting is on par with incomes.



Almost forgot...









Viva la Roja!
 
The downward spiral is exactly what the re market needs. Artificial price controls only prolong the decline and will cause it to become more extreme than it needs to be. Consider what the causes of the current situation are. How will more of the same solve the problem?

Foreclosures are the answer.
 
Here's the bottom line: Banks are back to reporting massive profits. It just isn't profitable to modify/adjust someone's loan. Profit is the only motivator a bank has ever or will ever have, after all, it is a BANK. If it somehow became profitable to do loan modifications, banks would do it in an instant. All of this confusion about why they aren't doing it is really naive. Someone, somewhere worked out all of the formulas and it just doesn't work for the banks.
 
<a href="http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/08/fitch-dramatic-decrease-in-cure-rates.html">http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/08/fitch-dramatic-decrease-in-cure-rates.html</a>





Single digit cure rates sure seem to point to a surge. We know there's a massive number of NODs. We know the banks aren't really throwing that many homes on the market. An optimist would like to think that somehow a lot of these delinquencies are resolved before they get to the end of the pipeline. A pessimist assumes that what goes in must come out. Single digit cure rates would tilt the field in favor of the pessimist.
 
I just read that CR article. "Prime" loans that get behind cure at 6%? Ouch. That means effectively nobody who gets behind is going to cure - and if they go to get a modification, most of those are defaulting too.



I guess the word to the wise is "amend and pretend" is over. Now it's straight to SEND. After you get your years worth of free rent.
 
You'd think by now, there wouldn't be any more investors left to trust what banks said about mortgages ... but ...



Inupiat Eskimos Jump Into PPIP

<A href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124985942952917999.html">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124985942952917999.html</A>



China's sovereign wealth fund to buy U.S. mortgages: report

<A href="http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinas-cic-to-buy-us-mortgage-paper-report-2009-08-17">http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinas-cic-to-buy-us-mortgage-paper-report-2009-08-17</A>
 
Always find it interesting when you can find this stuff on MSN.



<a href="http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2009/08/21/housing-crisis-set-to-enter-new-stage.aspx">Housing crisis set to enter new stage</a>
 
From Mish (who always gets his facts right, but often lets his politics twist his conclusions). None of that malarky here!



<a href="http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/huge-plunge-in-mortgage-cure-rates.html">http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/huge-plunge-in-mortgage-cure-rates.html</a>



Look at the area inside the pink lines. ASSuming a 6% cure rate (that's where it is now, you can make an argument it will get far worse), there's the tidal wave of pent up supply. IMO where the bottom started this mess by dragging on the top, the middle is what will really get crushed as the top colapses from above. That means.....Irvine.



<a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/SpNRJ3H6aYI/AAAAAAAAGtY/cCD9RpkbVeo/s1600-h/pent+up+forecloures+by+state.png">I can't post Mish's chart. Click here to see what I'm ranting about.</a>
 
hah, and I read on CR that the 6% "cure" rate includes those who have received "loan mods", over half of which will fail within a year.



so it is really 3%
 
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