Veterans Cemetery coming to Irvine

[bones]

All that said, how do you reconcile the fact you made the a different decision, and inexplicably purchased immediately adjacent to the LARGEST PUBLIC PARK in Orange County? Maybe California? Actually, wasn't it supposed to rival Central Park at one time?  See, here is the thing about PUBLIC space like that...it belongs to the PUBLIC.  To the taxpayers of Irvine.  It's not your private park.  You don't have veto rights over what goes in that park, all 200,000+ taxpayers in Irvine own that park.  And unfortunately a lot of them probably would like to see things there you don't.  And the fact you don't like it is not their problem, its yours.

Even setting aside the cemetery issue, and the toxic land, and the landfill, and the prison...I still don't get how somebody could make the choice to live right next to a monstrosity of a public place like that, unless they really like traffic, crowds, and noise. Even if a cemetery NEVER goes in, you are still going to have to deal with crowds of people descending on that park all the time for everything from soccer tournaments to concerts in the park to city holiday celebrations and yes, probably regular military ceremonies.  And its not going to be people from your neighborhood, either.  Imagine the riff raff clogging that park from places like (gasp!) Santa Ana and Foothill Ranch.  No thanks, somebody else can have all that hassle next door. I feel your pain. Unfortunately, all this applies cemetery or no cemetery. Even if you win this battle, you probably lost the war the day you chose Great Park Neighborhoods rather than some of the other choices you had at the time. Places you would have controlled better, such as Laguna Altura or Orchard Hills.

I understand where you're coming from.  But that passionate speech should really be reserved for the folks that buy at Beacon Park and the future GP neighborhoods.  From a location standpoint, Pavilion Park is really no different than other parts of Portola Springs, Stonegate, Woodbury.  Its distance to the public spaces at the Great Park is pretty "far"... in fact, wasn't that a negative when comparing Beacon Park to Pavilion Park in another thread?  And traffic generated by the GP may get bad but again, every neighborhood along the Sand Canyon corridor will be affected.

I'll just repeat what I've been saying for a long time on this thread:

1.  All of the existing neighborhoods, including PP, are pretty far away from the proposed cemetery site.  PP is no closer to the proposed site than Portola Springs, Lambert Ranch, or Baker Ranch.  If you live in PP, you should be emphasizing how far away from the proposed site PP is rather than give people the false impression you are right next to the proposed site which can only serve to lower your resale value.

2.  There are future 5P communities that may indeed be close to the proposed cemetery site.  Your solution is to not buy there if you don't want to live near a potential cemetery.  Pretty simple, huh?

This is why I don't think that groups strategy is very effective.  But I also don't know the ins and outs of their day to day operation.  Personally, I think trotting Yaliu on TI as the messenger brings ZERO value or gain to their argument.  Having said that, its a fight he wants to fight and I respect that. 

 

[Our Gang]

These are veterans that served the country you live in now.

There goes the patriotism card. Where does it stop?

Why don't you bury veterans in your front yard so you can show respect every day? These are veterans that served the country you live in now.

Why don't you let the numerous homeless veterans who suffer from PTSD and can't hold a job come live in your home? These are veterans that served the country you live in now.

Why don't you donate all of your time and money to the vets? These are veterans that served the country you live in now.

The fact is, there's a limit with everything, including the veterans. Respecting the veterans does not mean they should get their way, no matter the impact on the residents.

I'm not Tarmacpro but your argument can just as well be used the other way around. Do you only expect special privilege for the Chinese / Taoists / feng shui? Or should we bend over backwards and allow any foreigner's beliefs to trample on our American values... hey, why not. Let's allow sharia law, too, while we're at it? To quote you: "Where does it stop?"

To answer your earlier question, the veterans would be welcome in my front yard any day. It would be an honor. As a nation, we should be rolling out the red carpet for these people. Why take them so seriously? Because they took us pretty seriously when they put their lives on the line for us.

Arlington Cemetery was once Robert E. Lee's rose garden.

 

[zubs]

His last name is Lee...he would have a hard time getting into Harvard today.

 

[WillJoy]

Of course we don't live close by.  We respect the vets and that's why we support a cemetery in the new and better neighborhoods. My backyard is full of hills and trees - definitely not a very convenient lot.

How convenient. Why don't you invite the homeless veterans to stay in your house as a gesture of your respect. Don't say. Do.

But more interestingly, there are lots of people in the anti-cemetery group who don't live close by. Some of them are not even from Irvine. What are their excuses for getting involved in this topic?

How would you know that? Why would you question others when you yourself is not close by? You're just here to stir up trouble.

On your first Why, that is not fair of you to say. It is understandable if you are concerned about property value. But since you emphasis on the veterans, I'd like to remind you that I'm not here to save 1 or 2 living homeless vets. I'm trying to speak up for the countless vets who are no longer here to speak for themselves. What have you done for this country, if I may ask?

On your second How and Why questions: I do personally know a few people within the anti-cemetery camp. I saw their group pictures in the news. You sound angry so I assume that you are part of the group. Please ask them if they live in Irvine at all. You know which wechat group they belong to. Thank you.

 

[WillJoy]

Dongping Huang, speaking at a recent meeting, said she lives in Irvine?s Woodbury village neighborhood, about two minutes from the Great Park. She said she was shocked when she found out last year that there was a cemetery proposed ?in my backyard, next to my son?s future school.?

?We respect the veterans. ... They fight for our freedom,? she said. They should rest in a ?quiet, beautiful area,? not amid soccer fields, Huang said.

What a big 'backyard' she has! No, our veterans did not fight for her 'freedom'. She came to this country to get a free ride when it was convenient to her.

 

[jmoney74]

Please do. PP is bordered on 2.5 sides by portola springs. The other half of that half side is affordable senior housing and some water thing.  None of pavilion park actually touches great park "proper".  Which of course is used by people on this forum as both a positive and negative depending on what story they're trying to spin

You are clearly the most reasonable and educated member of that PP community. Can I suggest you speak to some of your neighbors and maybe help them see the value in taking a different approach to this campaign?  The NIMBY "NOT IN GP, NOT IN IRVINE" drumbeats come across very shrill, and unfortunately for them this has now leaped to the court of public opinion in more mainstream media outlets --- I came back here to catch up after I saw it in the newspaper. I suspect the very public campaign is not getting them anywhere --- and likely whipping up more support for the pro-cemetery groups than it is bringing more supporters to their side. It certainly had that effect on this Veteran when I first read some of this discussion; basically an exercise in "respect my culture" while being completely dismissive of the culture of reverence for the military in the US. Straight selfish NIMBY. I tried to tell yaliu this a few months ago, but then somebody said they wanted to s**t on my grave, so I just gave up on that. I don't understand why the anti-cemetery group is taking this militant approach as opposed to working more quietly with 5 Points and the City to perhaps find a compromise location in the park?  Somewhere far enough away from homes to be acceptable, but still on the historically important El Toro land?  Or is the location earmarked the only feasible spot?  We know the City and 5 Points don't want to lose face by killing the cemetery altogether, so a compromise location might be the only winning strategy.

I totally agree with this.  You have to proper analyze the situation and decide what battles to fight and which one to give up.  That is why I am trying to dismiss all the ancillary arguments...they sound contrived and not based on reality.  I saw this quote in the article and facepalm'd:

Dongping Huang, speaking at a recent meeting, said she lives in Irvine?s Woodbury village neighborhood, about two minutes from the Great Park. She said she was shocked when she found out last year that there was a cemetery proposed ?in my backyard, next to my son?s future school.?

?We respect the veterans. ... They fight for our freedom,? she said. They should rest in a ?quiet, beautiful area,? not amid soccer fields, Huang said.

If the cemetery is built, she said later, she probably would move

I mean the "I CARE ABOUT YOU MORE THAN YOU CARE ABOUT YOU" argument is terrible. 

If you are going to make arguments about the park...have your facts and arguments lined up.  I think the best argument is actually trying to move it to the Anaheim Hills site.  Maybe set up an endowment to have the memorial there.

Im done talking about the cemetery.... Oh wait im not.

 

[socal78]

Arlington Cemetery was once Robert E. Lee's rose garden.

What a coincidence. It is also the theme song to the home buyers from the developer / city. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-eclUz-RYI

I beg your pardon
I never promised you a rose garden
Along with the sunshine
There's gotta be a little rain some time
When you take you gotta give so live and let live
Or let go oh-whoa-whoa-whoa
I beg your pardon
I never promised you a rose garden

I could promise you things like big diamond rings
But you don't find roses growin' on stalks of clover
So you better think it over
Well if sweet-talkin' you could make it come true
I would give you the world right now on a silver platter
But what would it matter
So smile for a while and let's be jolly
Love shouldn't be so melancholy
Come along and share the good times while we can

I beg your pardon
I never promised you a rose garden
Along with the sunshine
There's gotta be a little rain some time

I beg your pardon
I never promised you a rose garden

I could sing you a tune and promise you the moon
But if that's what it takes to hold you
I'd just as soon let you go
But there's one thing I want you to know
You better look before you leap, still waters run deep
And there won't always be someone there to pull you out
And you know what I'm talkin' about
So smile for a while and let's be jolly
Love shouldn't be so melancholy
Come along and share the good times while we can

I beg your pardon
I never promised you a rose garden
Along with the sunshine
There's gotta be a little rain some time,
I beg your pardon
I never promised you a rose garden

 

[eatthis]

While you're in town, you are more than welcome to come lay down on my front lawn at various times of the day #JustLikeMomopi to see if you would like it as your eternal resting place. Come take a nice long nap in the grass to make sure it is a good fit. (Eatthis, are you happy now?)

Yes. Once he's buried in your front yard I'll be happy to come over and pay my respects. Is 8000 times a year too much?

 

[eatthis]

Wrong. Do your homework. Read the sidebar of the Register's recent article.

Which article are you referring to?

 

[eatthis]

The Veterans cemetery came in during this process. Before Irvine sold out to FP, the cemetery was part of the discussion. Irvine cried poor to sell the FP deal.

Please help us do our homework. Where's the documentation to back this up?

 

[eatthis]

But I'm not the one who needs to convince others...I'm not fighting the battle.

Really? Why are you here? For someone who doesn't need to convince others you certain spend a lot of time responding on this thread.

 

[eatthis]

I ask because it's my belief (unsubstantiated, which is why I ask...) that this Cemetery has been open and disclosed for some time now. For people to suddenly worry about property values, the spiritual aspect of it all, etc seems to be a bit late coming and therefore unsupported.

Why post something unsubstantiated and then go on to bash people based on the unsubstantiated claim?

If people willingly chose to not read the oceans of disclosures about their site and surrounding area, it's something that one should not could really put any weight or substance to.

Again. That's a big unsubstantiated 'IF' based on feeling.

It's been my understanding since GP was first planned that there would be a Veterans Cemetery. I could be wrong and this is a recent change of use for the area. If so, please post the data and hopefully we can ease back from the emotional side of the discussion and focus on the facts.

The person making the claim should do the homework first.

 

[eatthis]

What exactly do you think think your kids are going to see at school?  It's not like they're lining up tombstones to the edge of the memorial...there is going to be a lot of street cover (usually trees)

What do you think they will see? Are you in the know of the design of the GP veteran cemetery? If not, it's all just conjecture.

 

[bones]

I ask because it's my belief (unsubstantiated, which is why I ask...) that this Cemetery has been open and disclosed for some time now. For people to suddenly worry about property values, the spiritual aspect of it all, etc seems to be a bit late coming and therefore unsupported.

Why post something unsubstantiated and then go on to bash people based on the unsubstantiated claim?

If people willingly chose to not read the oceans of disclosures about their site and surrounding area, it's something that one should not could really put any weight or substance to.

Again. That's a big unsubstantiated 'IF' based on feeling.

It's been my understanding since GP was first planned that there would be a Veterans Cemetery. I could be wrong and this is a recent change of use for the area. If so, please post the data and hopefully we can ease back from the emotional side of the discussion and focus on the facts.

The person making the claim should do the homework first.

I scanned through all the disclosures that I have (supplementals, public reports, title disclosure report, etc) and didn't see any mention of the cemetery.  They do caveat that there's stuff not owned by the master developer and thus out of their control.  I consider myself a pretty informed buyer but I didn't know about the cemetery until after I signed a reservation agreement.

 

[eatthis]

First of all, the drinking water from IRWD is a combination of imported water (a little more than half) and ground water.http://www.irwd.com/services/water

Secondly, there are no water-drinking wells on the El Toro base. The 18 wells are in Santa Ana.http://www.irwd.com/construction/tce-el-toro-factsTwo of the wells, called Wells 21 and 22, are along Mitchell Ave. in Tustin.http://www.irwd.com/construction/wells-21-and-22-project

Thirdly, those wells pump water from 2,000 feet below ground, out of the Orange County Groundwater Basin.http://www.mwdh2o.com/mwdh2o/pages/...PDFs/OrangeCountyBasins/OrangeCountyBasin.pdf

Not sure what your point is with the above. If you're saying that we should be worried about poisoning our water supply given that we get half of them from ground water and it's pump from a location that's not that far away then agreed. Unless your argument is as long as the drinking water supply is fine go ahead and taint the ground with toxic chemicals. Hmm...

Where cemeteries have been subjected to flooding in recent rain, as at Roselawn, toxins may have been brought to the surface."[/i] Is the Veteran cemetery going on a hill? No. Do we get precipitation like Ireland? Absolutely not!

In which case, I'd give you exhibit A.http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ucla-campus-flooding-20140729-htmlstory.html.It's not too much ask that the residents don't have to worry about the safety of the land they live on.

 

[Our Gang]

Wrong. Do your homework. Read the sidebar of the Register's recent article.

Which article are you referring to?

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/cemetery-664876-park-veterans.html

Asian neighbors say graves would create bad feng shui, hurt property values

June 5, 2015

Not that hard to find really, apparently difficult for you.

 

[Our Gang]

The Veterans cemetery came in during this process. Before Irvine sold out to FP, the cemetery was part of the discussion. Irvine cried poor to sell the FP deal.

Please help us do our homework. Where's the documentation to back this up?

Video records of public Irvine City Council meetings.

 

[Our Gang]

What exactly do you think think your kids are going to see at school?  It's not like they're lining up tombstones to the edge of the memorial...there is going to be a lot of street cover (usually trees)

What do you think they will see? Are you in the know of the design of the GP veteran cemetery? If not, it's all just conjecture.

No homework again. Design will be to VA standards. Go look at Miramar.

 

[eatthis]

Plenty of TCE and PCB under El Toro.

And lots more: http://www.sciencecorps.org/Veteranshealth/

I especially "like" the part about depleted uranium

That's why there's a superfund to clean it all up before it's fit for people to live and play on.http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/77B8667025C1EC9685257C6D0070101C

Who's paying for the clean up from the toxin's coming out of buried bodies in the cemetery?

 

[Our Gang]

Plenty of TCE and PCB under El Toro.

And lots more: http://www.sciencecorps.org/Veteranshealth/

I especially "like" the part about depleted uranium

That's why there's a superfund to clean it all up before it's fit for people to live and play on.http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/77B8667025C1EC9685257C6D0070101C

Who's paying for the clean up from the toxin's coming out of buried bodies in the cemetery?

Geez, you are an ignorant sort. There will be none to clean up. Never is.

You were not there when the public cemetery discussions took place (I was), you can't/won't research public records, can't even find a recent newspaper article. You must be the founder of the fictional ORCA, the fabricator of falsehoods to scare 'Asians' (OC Register's term), conducting children's comic kabuki gravestone theater at council meetings.

Just a whiney Johnny-come-lately Taoist NIMBY.  Am I correct?