The perfect BK style house designed just for IHBers.

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1233221581]I will compare apple to apple





Here is the revised front loaded garage house for the garage as part of the 35'x35' footprint.

Right away 30'+ setback 20' + house 35' inclusive of garage + 15' yard= 100'



45'x100'=4500sf 43,560sf/4500sf=9.68 units/acre. The total area for the frontal garage house is 2,595 sf

35'x128'=4480sf 43,560sf/4480sf=9.72 units/acre. The total area for the frontal garage house is 2,613 sf



Frontal garage house would cost the same as Alley loaded house since the densities are very close.



Frontal garage has a driveway and a 2 car garage. 5 contiguous neighbors and no privacy at rear yard.

Alley garage has a minimum of a 2.75 garage and 40% will have a 3 car garage, 2 adjacent neighbors that can't see the rear yard. Granny flat, mud room, flex space in garage accessible from rear yard.

</blockquote>
That's more like it... but as you can see... there is no land/cost savings like you were originally posting... and the number of units per acre is the same so the builder does not get more houses out of your plan.



Granted, your plan may be more aesthetically pleasing... and does provide functionality/privacy/space that many would prefer (even myself with that 2.75-3 car garage space)... but in the end... I may still go with the front garage and driveway plan.



If the price difference were significant, my opinion would change, but as I was trying to demonstrate... it is not and so this becomes a matter of choice rather than cost. I'm pretty sure the majority would choose your plan regardless... even me depending on where this was located (it's just so hard to give up that driveway!).
 
If you ask Mrs. cdm what i dislike most about tract houses, she would tell you, instantly, that it is the garage in front. I grew up in a 1927 California Craftsman style home, with a narrow driveway to a grarage in the back. Having the house in front just looks pleasing to me.



San Pedro uses a system of alleys, as did much of the older part of Monrovia.
 
I do appreciate IHO's love affair with driveway. Both products perform number wise very similar at footage and density.



I think the alley loaded floor plan will be a big wow with floor plan features not usually found in tract projects.



By unloading the garage off the front there will be huge opportunity for light. Finally there are living spaces to engage with the street.



The nostalgia of granny flat and mud room could be very memorable. The garage off the rear yard will open up endless possibility of how buyers would utilize the space.
 
Although the alley-loaded garage is more aesthetically pleasing - in my humble opinion, the effect is ruined when there is merely a narrow walk-way between the front of your house and the front of your neighbor facing you, with roof lines almost touching, like the detached condo courtyard homes. (I.e. - curb appeal is practically meaningless when you can't even see the house from the curb.) However it sounds like this prototype guarantees a street in front of the home, or at least I would hope so.
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1233224971]Although the alley-loaded garage is more aesthetically pleasing - in my humble opinion, the effect is ruined when there is merely a narrow walk-way between the front of your house and the front of your neighbor facing you, with roof lines almost touching, like the detached condo courtyard homes. (I.e. - curb appeal is practically meaningless when you can't even see the house from the curb.) However it sounds like this prototype guarantees a street in front of the home, or at least I would hope so.</blockquote>


Every home will be seen off the street. You described the conditions of detached condos where the alley is perpendicular to the street. BK prototype has the community drive (alley) parallel to the street. The front of the homes will be 90' away from homes across the street. The sidewalks will have infinite parkway with 3x the trees we would normally see in Irvine neighborhoods currently due to curb cuts.
 
[quote author="acpme" date=1233199768]

it reminds me of lucera, madison lane, and wyndover in bonita canyon. obviously those are on a much larger scale and not alley-loaded. but if a builder can pull off a smaller version of those, i would be a happy camper. <img src="http://i-0.rfimg.us/photo/46/bigphoto/141/U8003141_13_1.jpg" alt="" />[/img]

</blockquote>
I like the idea, however claustrophia is the operative word. In the picture, just the grass probably exceeds 15x30. Take the rest of the open space away and you won't have a bright airy space, you'll have a dank wet place in winter and chronic dead grass because of the shadows.



Also, do not underestimate the detrimental effects of pushing many cars unto the front street. It makes the neighborhood feel very crowded and urban. While cars on the driveway may disrupt astetic appeal, most see and construct their impression of the neighborhood by driving thru the main street and not walking the sideway. It is part of the reason Woodbridge feels so open and low density when you loop through Yale Loop.
 
Like I said in an earlier post, this has been done before in identically-sized lots in the same development by the same builder and some people just preferred the lane-loaded look and some people didn't. One thing I didn't like about the lane-loaded homes is that they had a shorter setback from the street and thus felt like they were built right up to the lot line.
 
[quote author="freedomCM" date=1233224165]As do the older parts of CM, HB, <strong>Fullerton, Anaheim</strong> (that I know of. probably many others have alleys)</blockquote>


When I was looking at houses, I saw a lot of these alley-loaded houses. I'm having trouble with bk's plan only because houses with an alley all struck me as extra-ghetto because the alley area was not kept up. The houses with an alley had an air of lower class to me.



There is a row of houses along Orangewood in Anaheim that face the street, and sure some of them have been kept up and are cute from the front, but when I look down the alley behind them it looks scary. I wouldn't want to be back there...ever. It's narrow and ugly and every so often I drive by and there is a mess of cars all trying to navigate the alley at the same time (and backed up in the regular street and in my way).



I'm sure having a harsh HOA would keep this from happening. It would have to...folks don't worry as much about the back of the house and what it looks like and whether the grass is dead and whether the fence needs to be painted or pick up the random trash when it's "just the alley" and the public doesn't see it.



Keep the alley itself from looking ghetto and scary and I'm in.
 
fascinating discussion...



i grew up in both homes with front and rear garages. the home with the front garage was a 3 car and completely on one side of the house with no living space above it. the front yard was deep enough that we could actually play catch without being in the street. also meant cars could be parked on the driveway without being on a slant. obviously a much older community with large lots. i wouldn't want to live there now, nor could i honestly afford to.



but in the future i probably would also not want my kids playing on the driveways or sidewalks of any newer irvine village. there's simply not enough room; i guess that's what the community parks are for anyway. even when walking my dog or talking a jog, i try to stay along the park or on streets with alley-loaded homes; basically streets with continous, unbroken sidewalks. streets with dense SFRs means too many driveways and garages with cars that can be backing out, or having to weave around large SUVs blocking the sidewalk and parked on a slope.



i feel that a driveway needs to be several car lengths deep, otherwise it creates a dangerous situation. when backing out of a garage, you pretty much only have visibility of the sidewalk directly in front of your garage. you can't see another car or pedestrian when they're coming down the street, only when they're directly behind you. add to that, with a short driveway once you're out of the garage, you're pretty much on a slant which impairs the drivers sightline even more. with tiny front yards in the newer developments, even a tree or two pretty much blocks all visibility, like these homes below:



<img src="http://socalmls.idxnetwork.com/photos1/30/U8004630_1.jpg" alt="" />

<img src="http://socalmls.idxnetwork.com/photos1/67/U8004367_1.jpg" alt="" />



imagine if these homes had front garage with a short driveway. how could they honestly see anything while backing out. unfortunately this is the case with too many mcmansions in my neighborhood. i have startled and been startled too many times that i just avoid those kinds of streets now. it's not worth my life.



so if i'm not going to get any benefit of a big front yard and deep driveway, i'd probably opt for something like bkshopr is suggesting and go for the aethestic instead.



this is an interesting discussion. obviously driveways aren't going to go away anytime soon because clearly homebuyers want them. it really depends on the buyer and their lifestyle. if i weren't walking around on the streets so much and my life consisted of lugging kids, groceries, and a bunch of gear every day, i'd probably prefer to have a design that gets me from my car to inside as easily as possible.



but i do commend bkshopr for his ideas and i do hope his clients listen and incorporate them in some way. there's clearly demand for something different. i would hate to believe the only options for homes anymore are alley-loaded townhomes/detached condos, or ugly garage-dominated boxes. anything other than that, the usual response is something completely unrealistic. live in an older community like santa ana, live in a very expensive community like san marino, or build a custom.



time for builders to think outside the box... they had to do so the first time around when they created the current ubiquitous front-garage 2-story SFR so i don't see why it can't be done. think, mcfly, think!
 
I doubt an alley-style SFR neighborhood in Irvine would be "ghetto". The HOAs here are strict enough... heck... they sent me a letter stating my "For Sale" sign was too tall. In the newer neighborhoods... you can't even use a realtor For Sale sign... you have to use their neighborhood one.



I do appreciate acpme's comments on short driveways and unbroken sidewalks which is why I prefer where we are living now. The community has that common grass strip that buffers the street from the sidewalk. The result is a longer driveway and there is no slope on the sidewalks so it is continuous and not sloped at every driveway.



bkshopr may know this... but why was the front-garage w/ driveway plan created in the first place? There had to be some land space saving reasons because really old homes had detached garages which took up even more land.
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1233277840][quote author="freedomCM" date=1233224165]As do the older parts of CM, HB, <strong>Fullerton, Anaheim</strong> (that I know of. probably many others have alleys)</blockquote>


When I was looking at houses, I saw a lot of these alley-loaded houses. I'm having trouble with bk's plan only because houses with an alley all struck me as extra-ghetto because the alley area was not kept up. The houses with an alley had an air of lower class to me.



There is a row of houses along Orangewood in Anaheim that face the street, and sure some of them have been kept up and are cute from the front, but when I look down the alley behind them it looks scary. I wouldn't want to be back there...ever. It's narrow and ugly and every so often I drive by and there is a mess of cars all trying to navigate the alley at the same time (and backed up in the regular street and in my way).



I'm sure having a harsh HOA would keep this from happening. It would have to...folks don't worry as much about the back of the house and what it looks like and whether the grass is dead and whether the fence needs to be painted or pick up the random trash when it's "just the alley" and the public doesn't see it.



Keep the alley itself from looking ghetto and scary and I'm in.</blockquote>


i wouldnt be afraid of the alleys getting ghetto in irvine. my bigger fear is just the general fear of any sort of shared community space. it could be great as long as all the residents treat it and each other with respect.



although you're not supposed to stop or park in the alleys, several of my neighbors wash their cars in there on the wkends. they do so respectfully and quietly, parking their cars against their garage as opposed to planting themselves in the middle of the driveway. when they see me pulling in, they stop what their doing and jump in their car to move it, but i always wave them off. its no problem even in the narrow alley to maneuver around them.



another friend, their alley basically turns into a mini-block party on the wkends. everyone opens up their garages and they play pool, ping pong, bbq and tailgate. one guy has a whole entertainment center set up in the garage. what did you expect -- cars??? the kids are playing in the alley, dogs can run around off leash. its like their own little community center, safe from traffic and strangers. and although technically against HOA rules, none of the neighbors mind since they're all in on the action. it doesnt disturb the neighborhood either since the alley is enclosed.



on the other hand, i have another friend who has two parking spots at the end of their alley. these are supposed to be open to anyone (actually i believe they're intended to be guest parking) but one of his neighbors always parks in one of the spots and believes he's entitled to them. one day my friends wife parked in the spot and the neighbor intentionally blocked her car in. the next morning as she left for work, the neighbor came out to berate her for taking his spot. eventually the guy started putting his trashcans there so nobody could park in HIS spot.



so your entire experience could depend on whether you live around the neighborhood jerk... or if you are that person. ahh yes, the joys of density.



irvine, my density has brought me to you. yes, yes... i'm your density.
 
The ghetto style alley in bad neighborhoods were planned near major streets. Over time the major streets became commercialized with businesses, bus stops, fast foods, markets and etc. Irvine zoning clearly prevents this sort of future erosion to the planned neighborhoods.



Kids in Irvine are too busy studying for SAT than to have time loitering and shooting drug in the alleys.
 
I was playing with my kid last night and it occurred to me that her Fisher Price Little People House looks a lot like the perfect BK style house:



<img src="http://www.fisher-price.com/img/product_shots/J9000_d_4.jpg" alt="" />



I remember that my cousin had a Fisher Price Little People House back when we were kids in the 70s and that her house was one of these, complete with a driveway and attached garage:



<img src="http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/s/000/77/4b/6c76_2.JPG" alt="" />



Is BK influcenced by the evolution of Fisher Price architecture?
 
[quote author="Mcdonna1980" date=1249376101]Any chance of this type of product coming to Irvine?</blockquote>


I don't think so and certainly not designed by me. TIC does not like IHB activists contrary to Young's comment.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1249377090][quote author="Mcdonna1980" date=1249376101]Any chance of this type of product coming to Irvine?</blockquote>


I don't think so and certainly not designed by me. TIC does not like IHB activists contrary to Young's comment.</blockquote>




Great Park?
 
I like the garage facing back alley idea. As I understand it, you're required to have additional garage space/parking space depending on the # of bedrooms at the house. So if you have to build a 2-car wide garage facing the back, you could do a tandem solution. Also, the rear yard could have additional gate that would allow you to park your cars and RV into the backyard. That way, the cars are in the back and out of sight from the front.



Guests would obviously park in the front by the curb side. I'd like to see better handicapped access, which means a sloped entry and not stairs. Ideally, the "ground floor" should be very handicap accessible, with at least 1 bedroom and 1 full bath. The 2nd floor can be whatever you want, but I'd like to see every bathroom to have a window.



If the rear-entry garage is built into a 3-car tandem, then you could either attach it to the house, or put a patio level on top that's accessible via stairs or 2nd floor from main house. Or, you could put a loft on top. Your grandmother belongs in the main house on the 1st floor bedroom, not the 2nd floor on top of the garage where she has to climb the stairs.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1233042405]The average median income for IHB members is $220k. 3x220k =$660k. This will be the premise for the selling price of my hypothetical project. </blockquote>


$220K annually? Really? No wonder there are so many cash buyers out there.
 
[quote author="Mcdonna1980" date=1249377880][quote author="bkshopr" date=1249377090][quote author="Mcdonna1980" date=1249376101]Any chance of this type of product coming to Irvine?</blockquote>


I don't think so and certainly not designed by me. TIC does not like IHB activists contrary to Young's comment.</blockquote>




Great Park?</blockquote>


BK better be a part of the Great Park... Otherwise it will end up like that cesspool that is known as VOC has become. BTW, we have another one on Fringe Tree scheduled for the auction next month. The NTS is just a hair under $600k. Wonder what will happen...
 
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