Straw Poll regarding gas milage. and possible Oil consumption Ideas

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[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223616185][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223612835][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223612674][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223612368]



I think more people need to see that electric cars are the future.</blockquote>


Now if we could just get past that whole 50% loss from the transformer in the charger we'd be all set.



If you really believe electric is the future, you're foolin' yourself.</blockquote>


How so? I think battery technology will improve range and recharging times as time goes on.</blockquote>


Nowhere did I mention the battery. I mentioned the charger. The battery isn't killing the planet, the coal we are burning in the powerplant that feeds the transformer inside the charger that gives up 50%-70% of it's consumed energy in radiated heat is.



Don't make the mistake of assuming because you aren't filling up at the pump this shit is clean. Somebody is burning some hydrocarbon somewhere to make this all possible.</blockquote>




I understand the longer tail pipe theory but carbon footprints would be lessened in the metropolitan areas thus reducing smog. The pollution would be concentrated over the power plants.



My biggest problem with electric cars are that the power to weight ratio could be further improved. Also, as the battery drains, the performance of the car diminishes at the same time.



Anyway, so what is your suggestion of a "Green Car"?
 
[quote author="GOTTI" date=1223616987]



Anyway, so what is your suggestion of a "Green Car"?</blockquote>


$8 a gallon fuel. Fuel cells fueled via nat gas becuase the infrastructure is already in your house. CNG.



At $4 a gallon it doesn't pencil to use alternative fuels or new technologies.



(And a repeal of these moronic rules and regulations when it comes to crash testing and bumpers and smog. There's some awesome stuff on the worldwide market I'd love to drive - but can't because I can't import it. Particularly Ford Falcons out of Austraila.) If I wanna pay $8 a gallon to drive something with 500 hp I should be able to.
 
[quote author="GOTTI" date=1223616987][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223616185][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223612835][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223612674][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223612368]



I think more people need to see that electric cars are the future.</blockquote>


Now if we could just get past that whole 50% loss from the transformer in the charger we'd be all set.



If you really believe electric is the future, you're foolin' yourself.</blockquote>


How so? I think battery technology will improve range and recharging times as time goes on.</blockquote>


Nowhere did I mention the battery. I mentioned the charger. The battery isn't killing the planet, the coal we are burning in the powerplant that feeds the transformer inside the charger that gives up 50%-70% of it's consumed energy in radiated heat is.



Don't make the mistake of assuming because you aren't filling up at the pump this shit is clean. Somebody is burning some hydrocarbon somewhere to make this all possible.</blockquote>




I understand the longer tail pipe theory but carbon footprints would be lessened in the metropolitan areas thus reducing smog. The pollution would be concentrated over the power plants.



My biggest problem with electric cars are that the power to weight ratio could be further improved. Also, as the battery drains, the performance of the car diminishes at the same time.



Anyway, so what is your suggestion of a "Green Car"?</blockquote>






I read a story about a guy with a fully electric car. and he charges it each day at home with solar. You can see afew cheap electric scooters around.



I agree with No-Vas there is no free lunch in the world or thermodynamics. and we know the first law of entropy (more disorder) Basicly It's all about the Sun.

everything comes from the sun. we just need a better way to tap into it. or we could just ride bikes. they get 200mpg plus. Thats what the dutch do. China also.

Bikes thats it.



Local power- portable solar car port. If the price of solar panels comes down. thats could be huge. good for 20-30 miles trips to work. second gas car as needed?
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223618139][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223616987]



Anyway, so what is your suggestion of a "Green Car"?</blockquote>


$8 a gallon fuel. Fuel cells fueled via nat gas becuase the infrastructure is already in your house. CNG.



At $4 a gallon it doesn't pencil to use alternative fuels or new technologies.



(And a repeal of these moronic rules and regulations when it comes to crash testing and bumpers and smog. There's some awesome stuff on the worldwide market I'd love to drive - but can't because I can't import it. Particularly Ford Falcons out of Austraila.) If I wanna pay $8 a gallon to drive something with 500 hp I should be able to.</blockquote>


Falcon... Is that the Mad Max car?

I don't know much about CNG but it frightens me to think what would happen in a collision.



The rest of the world is already or has been paying $8/gallon.
 
[quote author="GOTTI" date=1223618453][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223618139][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223616987]



Anyway, so what is your suggestion of a "Green Car"?</blockquote>


$8 a gallon fuel. Fuel cells fueled via nat gas becuase the infrastructure is already in your house. CNG.



At $4 a gallon it doesn't pencil to use alternative fuels or new technologies.



(And a repeal of these moronic rules and regulations when it comes to crash testing and bumpers and smog. There's some awesome stuff on the worldwide market I'd love to drive - but can't because I can't import it. Particularly Ford Falcons out of Austraila.) If I wanna pay $8 a gallon to drive something with 500 hp I should be able to.</blockquote>


Falcon... Is that the Mad Max car?</blockquote>


Not exactly.



<img src="http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2007/10/Ford-Falcon-XR8.jpg" alt="" />



<blockquote>I don't know much about CNG but it frightens me to think what would happen in a collision.



The rest of the world is already or has been paying $8/gallon.</blockquote>


And the rest of the world has cars that sip fuel. Imagine.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223619449][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223618453][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223618139][quote author="GOTTI" date=1223616987]



Anyway, so what is your suggestion of a "Green Car"?</blockquote>


$8 a gallon fuel. Fuel cells fueled via nat gas becuase the infrastructure is already in your house. CNG.



At $4 a gallon it doesn't pencil to use alternative fuels or new technologies.



(And a repeal of these moronic rules and regulations when it comes to crash testing and bumpers and smog. There's some awesome stuff on the worldwide market I'd love to drive - but can't because I can't import it. Particularly Ford Falcons out of Austraila.) If I wanna pay $8 a gallon to drive something with 500 hp I should be able to.</blockquote>


Falcon... Is that the Mad Max car?</blockquote>


Not exactly.



<img src="http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2007/10/Ford-Falcon-XR8.jpg" alt="" />



<blockquote>I don't know much about CNG but it frightens me to think what would happen in a collision.



The rest of the world is already or has been paying $8/gallon.</blockquote>


And the rest of the world has cars that sip fuel. Imagine.</blockquote>




Ford makes a lot of cool cars only in europe.



so do you thinks its all about, saftey, emmisions, or market? why they are not over here??
 
I read rumors about 80-90 mpg hybrid coming soon. But I will not believe it til I see it. But that that would definetly be enough to warrant a switch.





Until then, I'm stuck with my 22 MPG mixed/ 30 MPG highway only. The cost of switching since my car is only 2 years old is not really worth it yet.
 
[quote author="ventouxbob" date=1223622954] so do you thinks its all about, saftey, emmisions, or market?</blockquote>


Pretty much yeah.



[quote author="24inIrvine" date=1223630546]I read rumors about 80-90 mpg hybrid coming soon. But I will not believe it til I see it. But that that would definetly be enough to warrant a switch.</blockquote>


I heard about that. I understand it only recently became possible because Newton's Law has been refuted by "Intelegent Falling".





<a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512">http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512</a>



<blockquote>KANSAS CITY, KS?As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling. </blockquote>
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1223616185]the transformer inside the charger that gives up 50%-70% of it's consumed energy in radiated heat </blockquote>Are you sure? I thought transformers were very efficient, something on the order of >90%. I think in the end the energy equations will always favor electric vehicles, though the tech and mfg capacity may not be in place yet. Gas engines are very inefficient right off the bat and will probably be so always. Gasoline requires using energy in refinement. Coal and natural gas don't need much processing, though coal is more difficult to transport than fluids. And there's always nuclear, which is clean if not entirely risk-free. Though, honestly, my concerns with energy have much more to do with finding enough of it rather than how clean it is. I'm totally down with high gas taxes to encourage conservation. Though I drive a (very clean) thirsty sedan, I carpool to work everyday and consume less than 250 gallons of gas in a year.
 
I used to sell motive power batteries and chargers for industral lift trucks (fork lifts). The best they could get with the state of the art chargers was 50%, if the battery was in perfect shape. If the battery was half way through it's duty cycle, it was about 35%. A fork lift has an advantage over a car in the sense it needs the ballast to counterweight the load on the mast, so the dead load from the battery isn't just there for run time capacity.



I'm not a EE (I just assumed it was the transformer) but it could be some of the other parts in there. Battery charger efficency is really bad. They make a lot of waste heat.



IMO the future is the ic (gas of diesel)/electric hybrid. The Prius is really a slick little car.
 
I'm having a hard time imagining how the chargers could be so inefficient. Modern computer power supplies that can deliver up to 1kw often have an 80%+ efficiency over a wide range of output levels. What technology were these 50% efficient chargers using?
 
Got me. I'm not a EE.



But there is a little difference in amperage requirements between charging a motive power battery that weighs 1500 pounds and the battery in your cell phone.
 
Battery chargers are no where near 50% inefficient. There are a lot of ways to charge a battery, using a good Li-poly battery charger will yield better than 90% efficiency every time when plugged into my 115V wall. Some of the efficency has to do with the difference between voltages. You can charge a 72 volt car battery more effieciently from a 115V outlet than you could a 12V battery. I could imagine that my car battery charger I keep around the house is only 50% efficient because it is designed to be cheap to manufacure with no consideration towards efficiency. When comparing the total energy footprint of an electric car to a gas powered car, the equivalent electric car to a Honda Civic would get 80-100 mpg. The electric car gets a huge gain in carbon efficiency because the coal plant can convert a whopping 85% of its coal energy into electricity, and the electric car motor can convert 75%-85% of it's battery power into useful road power. By comparison, a gasoline powered car engine has a great deal of trouble converting 20% of its fuel energy into useful road power. This subject has had some serious analysis done by the auto industry and the usual road block to electric cars has always been the driving range with battery power. The latest diesel powered hybrid cars can achieve 80 mpg on the european combined driving cycle. I believe Audi has this car for sale as the Audi A-1 hybrid. I might be wrong in that it could be a model soon to be released. Citroen also has a diesel hybrid for sale or in the works for release within the next year.
 
Americans are looking for a huge SUV with 3rd row seating that costs $.10/mile to operate. If only those meanie car companies would hurry up and make it. (puke)
 
[quote author="ventouxbob" date=1223534156]I noticed in the debate last night I think, Both candidates mentioned sacrifices. I think smaller cars with less Horsepower would go a long way in reducing OIL consumption. perhaps this is an example of a sacrifice we should make or at least encourage.



<span style="color: blue;">A. With smaller cars they do not tell you that death rates are much higher. I look at people in very small cars and what goes through my mind is they may become a statistic. Or that if you own a Hybrid and you get into an accident that there are wires that carry 650 volts that can be dangerous to you and or the fire or police departments who are trying to save you.

Both candidates will never sacrifice in their own lives (7 houses?) they will always be rich and for them to pander to me about sacrifice is just a steaming pile of their ignorance.</span>



Would you support legislation to either.

1-credit people who own high mileage or low displacement cars say below 140hp.

<span style="color: blue;">A. No! Who wants to drive a sled i still shutter at the trash they made in the 70's and the 80's.</span>



2. A penalty for excessive consumption Tax for low mileage or high hp. (this is what is in place in Italy BTW)

<span style="color: blue;">A. No, who wants to pay for the agency to monitor that. There is already a gas gussler tax for new cars with bad gas mileage. And don't get me started on the idiot politics of Italy...</span>



I would like to know avg mileage with current cars.



what do you drive?

<span style="color: blue;">A. An Escalade 2004 that gets about 14mpg all the time and Super charged mustang Cobra 2003 that gets 8 to 10 in the city(Lead foot) and will get better than 20 mpg on the highway with the cruise on.</span>



Would you have bought something different if you knew about pending high gas prices?

<span style="color: blue;">A. No as i did not buy either cars for thier gas milage. Life is to short to be stuck in an economy car. I have done my time already. Thanks</span>



If you have a minivan or SUV would you consider a small wagon in the future if it got much better mileage?

<span style="color: blue;">A. No i like the comfort and really enjoy driving it and willing to pay for it.</span>



If you are getting bad mileage do you plan to get a car with better mileage in the near future?

<span style="color: blue;">A. No that is just silly, if your driving that much you have bigger problems .</span>
 
Four bucks a gallon clearly wasn't enough to induce capitulation. The 300hp 6000lb SUV entitlement mentality is alive-and-well. Indeed the little econocars are less safe but that'll get better after the heavy dinosaurs become mostly extinct. Might take a while with oil sliding under $80...
 
The little Focus I HAD would get 30-33 combined... and with me driving like and idiot.



I traded that in for a Hyundai Genesis which so far is returning 22mpg. The supercharged mustang gets about 10mpg and the turbo mustang gets about 20mpg. it just depends on you.



From what I understand... charging is not quite efficient because you have to change its state and force those ions into storage. Its not easy and the byproduct is heat. Most computers are efficient because they AREN'T charging a battery, there is very little to no "feedback" lowering the efficiency.



There are many other issues, but they are more engineering oriented....

good luck

-bix
 
[quote author="effenheimer" date=1223697249]Four bucks a gallon clearly wasn't enough to induce capitulation. The 300hp 6000lb SUV entitlement mentality is alive-and-well. Indeed the little econocars are less safe but that'll get better after the heavy dinosaurs become mostly extinct. Might take a while with oil sliding under $80...</blockquote>


Then why in the hell is everybody pissing and moaning about 4 bucks a gallon?



Probably its only the folks with a smaller income who are effected by gas prices as much.



Is It not a bit Moraly Wrong to blantently and unapologeticly over use the resouces of the planet (USA) ? We over use Oil clearly. How do you feel about countrys that over fish the ocean?



All the world knows how much we over consume. I am ashamed by this personally.



I took hell from a lot of europeans while on vacation over there since 2000.



I mean why recycle? cans or glass or plastic? whats in it for me? whats in it for future generations? I guess people just don't care about the country? or the state of the planet for that matter. after all they will be dead in a few years. the guy who dies with the most toys is still dead.



American over-consumerism, wastefull society, selfish mentality & greed. Thats the primary reason this fricking blog and this housing bubble occured it has more to do with a effed up society than anything else. ME Me ME.



I figured out what I allready suspected. regarding real resistance to more exonomical cars.



I think the small car arguement is really weak. but thats another subject. i have some interesting articles to post on that later. its true more people in small cars die but most of them hit objects off the road. trees, poles etc.. so if you dont drive drunk or like an ass. you should be fine in a smaller car.



SUV's are not that safe. they handle poorly, they roll over they brake poorly. sure a heavey vehicle does better in some wrecks. But why not have a car that can just avoid the wreck in the first place, because it stops fast or changes lanes fast. or wont lose control and roll do to over correction.



If you want safe you get a nice big sedan (ford taurus, bmw 530, volvo wagon or sedan) they are safe AND get good gas milage. and many holds as much or more than an SUV.



There is a really facinating article about the myth of a safe SUV. here. written by Malcom Gladwell(the author of Match point and Blink)

Its a facinating read:



http://www.gladwell.com/pdf/suv.pdf
 
I hear now with the melt down we may see gas get down to 20 to 30 dollars a barrel and that may start the buying of big SUV's and Trucks again as gas will become cheap again. That's if we have a credit market to be able to buy them and fill them up...
 
1-2 years later watch for "WTF was I thinking" when we can't seem to get global oil production to ramp beyond 85 million barrels per day and resale on those things takes a digger again. I don't think that many people truly learned much from this experience.
 
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