Saratoga, Condo or Single family? IC new trick?

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lnc said:
akirvine79 said:
In Irvine, newly built homes without driveway are probably all condos. ;)
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You probably right but here's a unique situation with Saratoga,  there are several units of Saratoga with a drive way.

I remember there's at least 2 lot with a full car length drive way and IP ask 20k lot premium for it.  Will these home consider SFR and rest of neighborhood  consider detach condo?
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There are 4 more driveway Saratoga homes at Saratoga extension tract.
Size and spec wise they're true SFR but when I looked at declaration document (submitted by IP to Orange County) they seem to be still detached condos.
This is because IP doesn't register them unit by unit, it's more like register a bunch per each phase or model.

Again, in Irvine, the border between SFR and detached condo is kinda blurred by IP.
When I looked at old MLS listings (for example Laguna Altura homes without driveway) a lot of them were registered as SFR. I tried to query those homes at Irvine city permit website, they were all detached condos.
 
Usually it's the entire tract.

So even if it has a driveway, 3-car garage, huge lot and no shared walls, if the paperwork says "condo", it's a condo.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
Usually it's the entire tract.

So even if it has a driveway, 3-car garage, huge lot and no shared walls, if the paperwork says "condo", it's a condo.
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Yep, it's all up to mighty IP. ;)
 
akirvine79 said:
lnc said:
akirvine79 said:
In Irvine, newly built homes without driveway are probably all condos. ;)
Click to expand...

You probably right but here's a unique situation with Saratoga,  there are several units of Saratoga with a drive way.

I remember there's at least 2 lot with a full car length drive way and IP ask 20k lot premium for it.  Will these home consider SFR and rest of neighborhood  consider detach condo?
Click to expand...

There are 4 more driveway Saratoga homes at Saratoga extension tract.
Size and spec wise they're true SFR but when I looked at declaration document (submitted by IP to Orange County) they seem to be still detached condos.
This is because IP doesn't register them unit by unit, it's more like register a bunch per each phase or model.

Again, in Irvine, the border between SFR and detached condo is kinda blurred by IP.
When I looked at old MLS listings (for example Laguna Altura homes without driveway) a lot of them were registered as SFR. I tried to query those homes at Irvine city permit website, they were all detached condos.
Click to expand...

i dont think IP/TIC is blurring the line. its just that people dont know the legal definition and rely on internet boards to figure it out. if you read the state legal definition of a condo it says you own the space plus there needs to be some shared interest in something.  if your house doesnt have a driveway off of the street and shares some sort motorcourt to get to your house, the shared ownership is likely in the motorcourt and thus its a condo. a condo is not defined by lot size, driveway (or lack thereof), etc.  The marketing of a home on the MLS is one thing, the correct zoning is with the county.  We know just about owner will list their house as an SFR if possible.
 
qwerty said:
akirvine79 said:
lnc said:
akirvine79 said:
In Irvine, newly built homes without driveway are probably all condos. ;)
Click to expand...

You probably right but here's a unique situation with Saratoga,  there are several units of Saratoga with a drive way.

I remember there's at least 2 lot with a full car length drive way and IP ask 20k lot premium for it.  Will these home consider SFR and rest of neighborhood  consider detach condo?
Click to expand...

There are 4 more driveway Saratoga homes at Saratoga extension tract.
Size and spec wise they're true SFR but when I looked at declaration document (submitted by IP to Orange County) they seem to be still detached condos.
This is because IP doesn't register them unit by unit, it's more like register a bunch per each phase or model.

Again, in Irvine, the border between SFR and detached condo is kinda blurred by IP.
When I looked at old MLS listings (for example Laguna Altura homes without driveway) a lot of them were registered as SFR. I tried to query those homes at Irvine city permit website, they were all detached condos.
Click to expand...

i dont think IP/TIC is blurring the line. its just that people dont know the legal definition and rely on internet boards to figure it out. if you read the state legal definition of a condo it says you own the space plus there needs to be some shared interest in something.  if your house doesnt have a driveway off of the street and shares some sort motorcourt to get to your house, the shared ownership is likely in the motorcourt and thus its a condo. a condo is not defined by lot size, driveway (or lack thereof), etc.  The marketing of a home on the MLS is one thing, the correct zoning is with the county.  We know just about owner will list their house as an SFR if possible.
Click to expand...

Yep, you're right. Probably not many people know exact legal difference between SFR and detached condos.
Or, maybe they don't really care legal definition. They might think practical factors or price point could be more important.

However, I still see some cheesy effort by IP trying to blur the line. For example, their home marketing brochure or web site, they never use a word "condo". They normally use vague terms such as "Single-family detached living" and "single-family detached home".
 
I was very excited about buying in Saratoga a year ago....then the sales lady told us they are officially considered detached condos and it was kind of a turn off for us and we didn't end up going through with it.

Living in a brand new house and a brand new neighborhood would've been nice though...
 
In the contract it says it's condominium and you own the land of the lot downward to the center of the earth, upward to ?? feet (I forgot the number).

I've asked builder's lender the question: if I own the land, how come it's called condo?  He said something like: It's how the land is registered.  Basically, Saratoga, in record, is registered in tracts.  I think IP registered land for Saratoga in unit of tracts, in stead of lots, so they can squeeze as many homes as they want in a tract.

And there is no legal lot boundary with each tract.  I've asked the saleslady for lot size.  She was reluctant to give a exact number at the beginning.  After I came back few more times and pushed, she gave a "approximate" number and emphasized that it was only a approximation.  I think legally, they cannot give out a lot size because there isn't one in record.
 
You own the structure only but the land you do not own. If you decide to tear down your home and build another home smaller than your current foundation boundary then you can't because you do not own your land. This is why your parcel boundary lines do not exist. The HOA is also bound by a covenant to the structural lifetime of the home which stated 99 years for which you no longer own beyond the expiration date.
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
You own the structure only but the land you do not own. If you decide to tear down your home and build another home smaller than your current foundation boundary then you can't because you do not own your land. This is why your parcel boundary lines do not exist. The HOA is also bound by a covenant to the structural lifetime of the home which stated 99 years for which you no longer own beyond the expiration date.
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Cmon  ihs, they own the land man. your right about alot of things, but not in this case.
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
You own the structure only but the land you do not own. If you decide to tear down your home and build another home smaller than your current foundation boundary then you can't because you do not own your land. This is why your parcel boundary lines do not exist. The HOA is also bound by a covenant to the structural lifetime of the home which stated 99 years for which you no longer own beyond the expiration date.
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Sigh...  I truly don't understand why people keep repeating and insisting that Saratoga or any IP detached condos don't own the land even though multiple Saratoga owners confirmed the land ownership after looking at their sales contract docs.
I want to finalize this discussion by attaching a part of sales contract provided by IP.

In ADDENDUM "O", Section B, 2-3

2. Condominium Ownership; Membership in Master Association.
The Property you are purchasing is a "condominium" and upon the Close of Escrow, you will receive: (a) fee title to a "condominium unit;" (b) an undivided interest in the "Common Area" located within the Phase of development of the Neighborhood in which your condominium unit is located; and (c) all easements, exclusive and nonexclusive, appurtenant to your condominium unit. The condominium unit is a "detached" condominium unit, as described more fully below. By virtue of your ownership of a the Property, you automatically become a member of the Master Association, entitling you to use of all of the common facilities owned by the Master Association, including the private neighborhood parks, subject to the rules established by the Master Association. As a member of the Master Association, you are also obligated to pay monthly assessments to the Master Association for the maintenance of such facilities and other Master Association Property.

3. Detached Condominiums.
Your condominium is essentially equivalent to a traditional detached single family home located on a separate lot because each owner in the Neighborhood will own a detached single family home (and the land upon which it is located)  and be solely responsible for maintaining his or her home. For a traditional condominium unit, the unit consists solely of airspace inside a building, and the boundaries of the airspace are the interior walls, floors and ceiling of a portion of the building (which building is maintained by a homeowners association). For a detached condominium unit, the unit consists of an envelope of space that may include air, earth and water. The vertical boundaries of each detached condominium unit extend downward to the center of the earth and upward to a plane located at least fifty feet above the earth's surface. The lateral boundaries of each detached condominium unit are shown on the Condominium Plan recorded for the phase of development in which the unit is located. As a result, a detached condominium unit includes all improvements (including your Residence) constructed inside the unit as well as the land located within the boundaries of the unit. (You will not own any mineral, oil or water rights.) As noted above, each owner of a detached condominium unit is responsible for maintaining his/her own Residence and all other improvements in the condominium unit.

Conclusion:
* Saratoga is a Single Detached Condo.
* All of recent IP's single residence homes without own driveway are likely all detached condos.
* IP's detached condos do own the land + structure + any improvement + undivided shared interest area.
 
If you own the land beneath your structure but the property metes and bounds are never specified in the sales documents. Do you even know your lot size? Boundary dimensions? BTW you don't even own the land adjacent to the sidewalk or street like most property owners do to guarantee access from the street to your front door and garage. The HOA owns that. What good is the land if you can't get to it? Even if you do own the land beneath your home it is useless. You can't build another home or even add on to it. When you don't have land right or freedom then the land is useless.
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
If you own the land beneath your structure but the property metes and bounds are never specified in the sales documents. Do you even know your lot size? Boundary dimensions? BTW you don't even own the land adjacent to the sidewalk or street like most property owners do to guarantee access from the street to your front door and garage. The HOA owns that. What good is the land if you can't get to it? Even if you do own the land beneath your home it is useless. You can't build another home or even add on to it. When you don't have land right or freedom then the land is useless.
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"The lateral boundaries of each detached condominium unit are shown on the Condominium Plan recorded for the phase of development in which the unit is located."

"a detached condominium unit includes all improvements (including your Residence) constructed inside the unit as well as the land located within the boundaries of the unit."

The sales documents also include separate Annexation document which clearly shows my boundary dimensions and the unit location plan of my phase.  (Not only mine but also all neighbors in the same phase)  it shows quite detailed measurement of each unit boundary (Not structures) such as width, height, corner radius and also latitude/longitude etc...  So I do know my portion of lot size (which includes my side and back yard) and boundary dimension.  That's the "Unit" defined and allocated by IP. The unit location plan docs don't even have structure measurement or shape. It just shows each portion of lots and sizes. And if you read the document carefully, boundary is not only the land beneath your structure.  It clearly specifies "the land located within the boundaries of the unit."

And you may be wrong about the ownership of street in front of detached condo. Condominium Ownership section also describes that detached condo owners own undivided fractional fee interest in the Phase's common area. So detached condo owners do have partial ownership but it just doesn't have clear boundaries of common areas.
 
Are you allowed to tear down and rebuild? The path to your front door since is not owned by you exclusively then your neighbors have to agree to construction and foot traffic to your front door. If they don't agree then you can't do much with your land locked parcel?
 
I'm assuming when they say "unit" they mean the entire area of land and not just the area of land your actual condo is sitting on.

Because in areas like Linden or Laurel in Quail Hill, which are detached condos, owners have put small pools in their yards and that can't be done unless they have ownership rights.

As to IHS' ownership question about access points, I don't think it's really an issue since you have partial ownership in shared areas as stated in the contract. But I don't know if that means you can tear down and rebuild (but that's the same concern for any HOA governed area).
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
Are you allowed to tear down and rebuild? The path to your front door since is not owned by you exclusively then your neighbors have to agree to construction and foot traffic to your front door. If they don't agree then you can't do much with your land locked parcel?
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That has little to do with the designation of the property.  HOA rules prohibit this.
 
Irvinecommuter said:
irvinehomeshopper said:
Are you allowed to tear down and rebuild? The path to your front door since is not owned by you exclusively then your neighbors have to agree to construction and foot traffic to your front door. If they don't agree then you can't do much with your land locked parcel?
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That has little to do with the designation of the property.  HOA rules prohibit this.
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Correct. In IP residential community, even if you own a true SFR, home owners can't tear down and rebuild because of HOA rules.
And regarding path way to the front door, specifically for Saratoga, home owners exclusively own the pass way. And home owners are allowed to modify path to front door under HOA approval. This is because path ways are within unit ownership boundary. (Pathways are inside the courtyard entrance in Residence 1,2 but not 2X)

For other IP detached condos, I *think* pathways are outside of unit ownership boundary. So owners don't have exclusive ownership and it's under HOA maintenance. It depends on the definition in the Condo/maintenance plan and sales contract. And also definition of shared interest area.
It's kinda same as the pathways outside of lot line in true SFR.

Lot ownership doesn't mean that owners can do everything they want. For example, Mendocino in Stonegate (which is true SFR), even with exclusive ownership, owners don't allow to install Patio Structures if rear setback is less than 20 feet. Owners can't even change exterior paint if color doesn't match with builder's color sample board. Same rules are applied to single detached condos.
 
So let me summarize everything many people concerend in this thread.

The only technical/legal difference between true SFR and IP's single detached condo is whether a house/building has a dedicated lot (lot number) or shared lot.

For example, the lot size of my Saratoga home is sitting on (let's say lot "A") is 12,160 sqft. You cleary see it's a large lot. However, lot "A" is shared by 4 detached condo owners (my neighbors). IP equally divided lot "A" into 4 portions. They call each individual portion as a "Unit". So each detached condo onwers have 3,040 sqft unit size (38'X80'). (In general, people normally call it "lot size" as same as true SFR's lot.)
And detached home owners have exclusive ownership withint this 3,040 sqft unit boundary. 

More specifically, IP's detached condo ownership includes:

a) 3,040 sqft of the land downward to the center of the earth and upward to at least 50 feet above the earth's surface.
b) all improvements constructed inside 3,040 sqft unit boundary.
c) a undivided fractional fee interest in the "Common Area" such as shared path way and motor court drive way.
d) all easements (exclusive and non-exclusive) appurtenant to the respective Condominium Unit

All of these above were written/specified in the sales contract, Condo Unit Plan and additional Annexation docs.
So it's technically same as SFR but homes just don't have separate lot number and exclusive lot lines.

In the contract docs, first line of ownership section starts with

"Your condominium is essentially equivalent to a traditional detached single family home located on a separate lot because each owner in the Neighborhood will own a detached single family home"

So IMO, "unit" is just a small lot (Normally less than 3,500 sqft) to squeeze more detached homes under city's legal requirement.
And we're seeing this minimum lot size is getting smaller by IP's effort. (For example, some of true SFRs in CV have 3,400 sqft lot size with 10ft rear setback) :)
 
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