Prepare to get the shaft from the State of California

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
<A href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123491737158404543.html">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123491737158404543.html</A>



"Total state expenditures have grown to $145 billion in 2008 from $104 billion in 2003 and California now has the worst credit rating in the nation"
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1235004491][quote author="Oscar" date=1235004028][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1235003490][quote author="Oscar" date=1234975682]

Pop quiz, hotshot. There's a bomb in your budget. Once the deficit reaches $14 billion a year, the bomb is armed. If you miss one bond payment, the government blows up. What do you do? What do you do?</blockquote>


There are only two options. Radically raise taxes or prepare for fail.



That's an easy question Oscar.



[quote author="Oscar" date=1234977145]

And while we are at it... screw all those sick people, too!</blockquote>


Not everyone has kids, but everyone needs health care. If you bust MediCAL you break all the health care providors and hosiptials.</blockquote>


And if you break the public school system, you don't have any more doctors, nurses, drugs, etc. Goose and gander and all that.</blockquote>


Tax people with kids. Make them pay for thier fair share. Unburden those without kids. But your point is taken, and in that case, prepare for fail.</blockquote>




Going on with Oscar's theme, no_vas, if you don't to pay for education then you don't get any health care from anyone educated with public money.

Think about all of the people who are educated by the public school system and as a consequence of that, provide services that affect your life.



We are much more interconnected than this and I think you know that. I certainly don't want the children getting an education that matches the income level and ability of their parents to pay. You think our prisons are full now, just wait! That would be ultimate job security for prison guards.
 
G.O.P. Shakeup Could Derail Budget Deal in California

<A href="http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/18/us/AP-California-Budget.html?_r=1&hp;">http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/18/us/AP-California-Budget.html?_r=1&hp;</A>
 
OMG the Repubicans have resorted to fragging!



<img src="http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/fail-owned-hell-fail.jpg" alt="" />



This reminds me of when the GOP shut down the US government in a pissing contest w/ Clinton. The luddites are equally hardened this time and are convinced they are doing the right thing by being obstructionist mini Hoovers. My insults aside, that's what makes America great. The minority, when galvanized together, has power.



Curiously, I suddenly miss <a href="http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/597295/Josip-Broz-Tito">Tito.</a>
 
[quote author="Anonymous" date=1235005178]G.O.P. Shakeup Could Derail Budget Deal in California

<A href="http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/18/us/AP-California-Budget.html?_r=1&hp;">http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/18/us/AP-California-Budget.html?_r=1&hp;</A></blockquote>


''I don't want to see a tax increase passed,'' Hollingsworth said Wednesday shortly after assuming the leadership post. ''I think the majority of my caucus doesn't want to see a tax increase passed in the package.''



Does that mean that without a a tax hike there is no budget? It's rather unrealistic to fix a $42bn hole without any tax hikes.
 
I've been debating switching sides for some time now. Not to go into too many details and reasons why, but Republicans have my full support. Recent moves from the Obama administration have deeply disappointed me. Anyway, carry on.
 
"California is running out of someone else to pay..."



Anybody ever meet a government employee who left their position for the private industry because the compensation was more attractive? Or left the state for a better job? Anybody driving the freeways this Monday (President's Day) get the feeling that their taxes were supporting a WHOLE LOT of people who were not working that day?
 
[quote author="skek" date=1235016866]At what point can we no longer raise taxes? We already have the highest state income tax in the nation (as well as other tax burdens), and it is steeply progressive. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, in the last decade, California spending has far, far outpaced inflation, CPI and tax revenues -- all of which have increased by healthy amounts. This is a spending problem. Period. If we just paper over this deficit with borrowing and tax hikes, what happens next year when spending is allowed to grow unchecked and we face another budget deficit? Or the year after? Or the year after that? Do we just raise taxes again? How will we pay back the debt our insolvent, credit-risky state is proposing to borrow today? Raise taxes in the future? We can not raise taxes indefinitely, not when doing so fails to fix the underlying problem. Kudos to the Republicans for not kicking this can down the road any further.



Raising taxes is a simplistic response to fiscal irresponsibility. It is generally politically feasible because a tax increase can always be sold by pointing to someone "else" who will have to pay -- you know, those evil millionaires who aren't paying their fair share, or those sinister companies who have the nerve to seek profits! Well, guess what, California is running out of someone else to pay. Now we all get to pay, and pay dearly. The California GOP has drawn a line in the sand. Some folks might call that irresponsible, fanatical or extremist. I call it about time. We can't keep addressing long term systemic failures in the California budget by raising taxes and borrowing. It is economic suicide (if we aren't already dead and just don't know it yet).



Something has to give. That's what I am referring to when I say "start over." <strong>We need to redesign how public schools are funded. We need to redesign how prisons are operated.</strong> We need to redesign what social services the state will provide and to whom. We need to redesign how business, tourism and commerce are stimulated in the state. And we need to get rid of the bullshit partisan district maps that ensure 95% of our elected officials come from safe, non-competitive districts. It drives candidates to the extreme, not the center.



If in the process of redesigning how the state of California operates, we need to reevaluate how taxes are raised and find ways to stabilize the tax base, I'm fine with that. But the overall tax burden must not go any higher. It is already too high.



Wishful thinking, I know. But there it is.</blockquote>


Very well said Skek.



I would also argue that we need to look at the way public schools are operated, not just funded. The idea of keeping kids in school until they are 18 was largely done to appease unions. By reducing the supply of labor, higher rates can be commanded. This helps justify (and increase) union dues.



We need to look at preparing our kids for their future. You need only compare the results of standardized tests from different countries to realize that we do a poor job of that.
 
I would like to see figures comparing the number of CA government workers today versus 10 years ago. Let's compare like figures with engineering & tech industry.



If engineering and high tech industries have expanded in the past ten years, then that would be a source of tax revenue to support a commensurate level of expansion in the government. Civic leaders should endeavor to cultivate these industries because of the high incomes they generate.



We know that Irvine was the "capital of the mortgage industry". However, perhaps our civic leaders cultivated a engineering/high tech industry too. These industries will also certainly be affected by the global depression, but the impact will be much less compared to an economy which was based on high school diploma'd people making six figures selling faux mortgages. I don't know what kind of economy we had here past decade, but we will soon find out!
 
Skek - I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement. You feel Californians are overtaxed. I disagree. I contend they are receiving far more in services (at current levels) than they have paid in taxes for many years.



Previous to Prop 13, local taxes paid local schools. What new solution are you offering outside of unwinding the clock?



The problem with prisons is, well, too many prisoners! What solutions are you offering to reduce the prisoner count and not be soft on crime?





I feel citizens like me and my wife with no kids (DINKS) who rent are overtaxed to subsidize people who own property and those with kids. I have (overpaid) for services I don't use long enough. The time to shoulder the burden back on those who have caused the cost in the first place has come!



They charge parents for the costs of the detention of their out of control kids that have to be incarcerated. We should do the same for parents. Instead of a tax rebate to create another mouth at the trough, we should start taxing parents for how many children they have. $5000 a head seems like a good place to start. Fixes the budget problem for the schools, and if you elect to not use the public schools, you can have half of it back.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1235019949]I feel citizens like me and my wife with no kids (DINKS) who rent are overtaxed to subsidize people who own property and those with kids. I have (overpaid) for services I don't use long enough. The time to shoulder the burden back on those who have caused the cost in the first place has come!</blockquote>
In the spirit of this new plan, I demand clawbacks of funds from all the parents who put their children in public schools... starting with yours. If they can't pay, I support forcing them to work as prison guards until they have satisfied this debt.



I wonder how many republicans feel they are overtaxed to subsidize people whom they would not willingly support financially.
 
[quote author="Oscar" date=1235022349][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1235019949]



I wonder how many republicans feel they are overtaxed to subsidize people whom they would not willingly support financially.</blockquote>


The difference is I'm not crowing for a tax cut. I want taxes raised on those I have been subsidising. I'll glady continue to overpay.
 
[quote author="skek" date=1235021644] But I can guarantee you that I do not support the no_vas tax plan, namely, to raise taxes "radically" on all segments of society, except offering a tax cut to DINKs who don't want to pay for public education. I know you like to occasionally troll for your lulz, but that's a little too transparently self-serving, don't you think?</blockquote>


I never wrote anywhere I wanted a tax break.



What I wrote is that I am overtaxed to subsidize property owners who are undertaxed and parents who are subsidized to make more kids that eat more tax dollars. There's lots of taxes like this. Booze and tobacco come to mind.



You're an attorney. I'm trained as a cost accountant. You want to argue about idology, I want to argue about transfer costing.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1235022584][quote author="Oscar" date=1235022349]



I wonder how many republicans feel they are overtaxed to subsidize people whom they would not willingly support financially.</blockquote>


The difference is I'm not crowing for a tax cut. I want taxes raised on those I have been subsidising. I'll glady continue to overpay.</blockquote>
Which is skek's point: without cutting spending first, you are locking in tax hikes and deficits when the economy slumps because no one ever argues to lower spending when the economy is good. Your attitude is counter-intuitive to fiscal responsibility and if you managed your finances that way you'd be homeless.
 
[quote author="skek" date=1235021644]I do feel Californians are overtaxed, but that's not my point. My point is that without addressing the systemic out of control growth of our spending obligations, raising taxes just defers the problem down the road.</blockquote>


As long as we have a referendum for all kinds of spending (and tax hikes) we will be in this mess - the voting on most of the propositions is rather short-sighted.



Given the current climate in resolving the budget I just don't see it as possible to pass without tax hikes in it. Maybe more cost cutting as a compromise, but there certainly will be more taxes.
 
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