xsocal land merchant_IHB
New member
<blockquote>Our pastor has a saying, ?If hypocrites did not attend church, church would be empty.?</blockquote>
As would the collection baskets.
As would the collection baskets.
Petition IRS to revoke Church of Latter Day Saints tax-exempt status
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awgee_IHB
New member
[quote author="xsocal land merchant" date=1229241170]<blockquote>Our pastor has a saying, ?If hypocrites did not attend church, church would be empty.?</blockquote>
As would the collection baskets.</blockquote>
Umm-m-m, I think maybe you and Sarge are missing the point.
Everybody is a hypocrite, including those in church pointing fingers, and including those outside of church pointing fingers. If one says they do not attend a church because it is full of hypocrites, one would have to live on a desert island to be away from hypocrites, and even then one would still have to live with oneself. Hypocrisy is a human condition of which we are all subject to from time to time.
The collection baskets at our church are very empty. We do not have any collection baskets, at least none that get passed around. If one wants to contribute, there are boxes near the exits, or one can send a check by mail. Some folks do not like to attend a church because they do not like always being hit up for money, so our church does not ask for money.
As would the collection baskets.</blockquote>
Umm-m-m, I think maybe you and Sarge are missing the point.
Everybody is a hypocrite, including those in church pointing fingers, and including those outside of church pointing fingers. If one says they do not attend a church because it is full of hypocrites, one would have to live on a desert island to be away from hypocrites, and even then one would still have to live with oneself. Hypocrisy is a human condition of which we are all subject to from time to time.
The collection baskets at our church are very empty. We do not have any collection baskets, at least none that get passed around. If one wants to contribute, there are boxes near the exits, or one can send a check by mail. Some folks do not like to attend a church because they do not like always being hit up for money, so our church does not ask for money.
xsocal land merchant_IHB
New member
awgee
I understand your point. There are many reasons that I have my position and it was easy pickings with the dudes quote about MLK to point out that one area.
I dislike the idea of organized religion based more on the history of destroying or eradicating other cultures that did not have the same beliefs. Examples are Catholic domination of the South American indigenous population, Incas, Aztecs et all for their gold as well as the Christian Missionaries destroying the Polynesian and Micronesian societies in the whaling days for profit.
The root of most wars through out history, including the current war on terror, has a basis in one religion taking over another culture in the name of saving them but also ending up with their natural resources and or enslaving them for economic gain.
I dislike none more than another so I guess that makes me an objective person. ;-)
Enjoy!
I understand your point. There are many reasons that I have my position and it was easy pickings with the dudes quote about MLK to point out that one area.
I dislike the idea of organized religion based more on the history of destroying or eradicating other cultures that did not have the same beliefs. Examples are Catholic domination of the South American indigenous population, Incas, Aztecs et all for their gold as well as the Christian Missionaries destroying the Polynesian and Micronesian societies in the whaling days for profit.
The root of most wars through out history, including the current war on terror, has a basis in one religion taking over another culture in the name of saving them but also ending up with their natural resources and or enslaving them for economic gain.
I dislike none more than another so I guess that makes me an objective person. ;-)
Enjoy!
tmare_IHB
New member
[quote author="xsocal land merchant" date=1229241092]<blockquote>What?s your point? Is he less religious because he had an affair? Most religious figures were considerably more flawed than MLK. Most secular ones too? Hypocrisy and evil is a human condition, not a religious human condition.</blockquote>
I guess it is ok to pick and choose which rules, laws, commandments, or whatever they are called that one wants to obey. Thats the part of organized religion I have never understood.
Some of the worst most dishonest people that I have dealt with often have a fish symbol on their checks or bumpers.
One of my co-workers has a "God answers KNEE mail" license plate cover and the obligatory fish on her car. She bumped into a car in the parking lot one day and dented the bumper of another co-worker then drove away. Fortunately another heathen noticed it and was able to tell the owner who did it.
I guess it is ok to pick and choose which rules, laws, commandments, or whatever they are called that one wants to obey. Thats the part of organized religion I have never understood.
Some of the worst most dishonest people that I have dealt with often have a fish symbol on their checks or bumpers.
One of my co-workers has a "God answers KNEE mail" license plate cover and the obligatory fish on her car. She bumped into a car in the parking lot one day and dented the bumper of another co-worker then drove away. Fortunately another heathen noticed it and was able to tell the owner who did it.
kevin_IHB
New member
The assumption that the world would be a better place simply by virtue of the absence of religion is absolutely stupid. Imagine Spain exploring South America in the sixteenth century; is it really your position that if the conquistadors lacked religion, they would have been less violent? Give me a break. Last I checked, atheists were not immune to greed. The worst atrocities of the twentieth century were born from atheistic philosophies: communism, fascism and nazism all put non-religion at the center of the greatest good (the proletariat, the state and the race, respectively).
Again, I don't see your point about MLK. First off, I seriously doubt he would try to justify his affairs. Second even if he didn't, so what? It says nothing about religion - it only speaks to his character. No one would argue with a straight face that MLK's position on racial equality is invalid because he had an affair. How in the world, then, should any of his other beliefs be invalidated by employ of the same argument? Balderdash. That's right, I said it, BALDERDASH.
Trooper - We've had this conversation before. The only way I see homosexuals convincing the skeptical is by showing that homosexuals are normal people, not crazy blind hedonists (i.e. portrait of a gay pride parade attendee). In the end, I believe it will be far better for homosexuals if marital rights come out a legislative process (a la the post civil war amendments), not a judicial one.
Again, I don't see your point about MLK. First off, I seriously doubt he would try to justify his affairs. Second even if he didn't, so what? It says nothing about religion - it only speaks to his character. No one would argue with a straight face that MLK's position on racial equality is invalid because he had an affair. How in the world, then, should any of his other beliefs be invalidated by employ of the same argument? Balderdash. That's right, I said it, BALDERDASH.
Trooper - We've had this conversation before. The only way I see homosexuals convincing the skeptical is by showing that homosexuals are normal people, not crazy blind hedonists (i.e. portrait of a gay pride parade attendee). In the end, I believe it will be far better for homosexuals if marital rights come out a legislative process (a la the post civil war amendments), not a judicial one.
awgee_IHB
New member
[quote author="xsocal land merchant" date=1229246441]awgee
I understand your point. There are many reasons that I have my position and it was easy pickings with the dudes quote about MLK to point out that one area.
I dislike the idea of organized religion based more on the history of destroying or eradicating other cultures that did not have the same beliefs. Examples are Catholic domination of the South American indigenous population, Incas, Aztecs et all for their gold as well as the Christian Missionaries destroying the Polynesian and Micronesian societies in the whaling days for profit.
The root of most wars through out history, including the current war on terror, has a basis in one religion taking over another culture in the name of saving them but also ending up with their natural resources and or enslaving them for economic gain.
I dislike none more than another so I guess that makes me an objective person. ;-)
Enjoy!</blockquote>
Maybe I am being naive, but I like to think that having a relationship with God and going to church is not religious. I also despise religion. I think most wars are started because of economics, but blamed on God. Pretty much just man blaming his greed and avarice on God.
I want to make point, and please forgive me in advance if it is preachy.
If you think about it, Jesus forgave anybody who wanted forgiveness and was empathetic and kind to all those who sinned, (hypocrites included), ... except for one group, the religious leaders of his religion.
I understand your point. There are many reasons that I have my position and it was easy pickings with the dudes quote about MLK to point out that one area.
I dislike the idea of organized religion based more on the history of destroying or eradicating other cultures that did not have the same beliefs. Examples are Catholic domination of the South American indigenous population, Incas, Aztecs et all for their gold as well as the Christian Missionaries destroying the Polynesian and Micronesian societies in the whaling days for profit.
The root of most wars through out history, including the current war on terror, has a basis in one religion taking over another culture in the name of saving them but also ending up with their natural resources and or enslaving them for economic gain.
I dislike none more than another so I guess that makes me an objective person. ;-)
Enjoy!</blockquote>
Maybe I am being naive, but I like to think that having a relationship with God and going to church is not religious. I also despise religion. I think most wars are started because of economics, but blamed on God. Pretty much just man blaming his greed and avarice on God.
I want to make point, and please forgive me in advance if it is preachy.
If you think about it, Jesus forgave anybody who wanted forgiveness and was empathetic and kind to all those who sinned, (hypocrites included), ... except for one group, the religious leaders of his religion.
xsocal land merchant_IHB
New member
<blockquote>but I like to think that having a relationship with God and going to church is not religious. I also despise religion.</blockquote>
awgee
We may be going down the same highway. I have never mentioned one's personal relationship with whatever higher being they believe in or choose not too believe in. I have only spoke of organized religion.
If you did a plus and minus of the historical events led by some sort of religious basis then it may be apparent the damage done by these organizations while preaching goodness and rightousness.
There are many ways one can be a "good person" and yet not be attached to a group that dictates thoughts, beliefs, and mind control. How can anyone say that their belief is the true and only way to a certain end and all of those who do not have the same beliefs are doomed? Those beliefs alone stand to set the grounds for hostility and bigotry.
Note also that I do not try to set a distinction between major religious groups such as Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Hindus let alone the offshoots of each drilling down to the Southern Baptists vs the Pentacostals.
three sheets
As far as wars fought for non religious reasons they make the religous based wars no less offensive.
Sorry, I just remembered it is Sunday morning and I must be on my way. :gulp:
awgee
We may be going down the same highway. I have never mentioned one's personal relationship with whatever higher being they believe in or choose not too believe in. I have only spoke of organized religion.
If you did a plus and minus of the historical events led by some sort of religious basis then it may be apparent the damage done by these organizations while preaching goodness and rightousness.
There are many ways one can be a "good person" and yet not be attached to a group that dictates thoughts, beliefs, and mind control. How can anyone say that their belief is the true and only way to a certain end and all of those who do not have the same beliefs are doomed? Those beliefs alone stand to set the grounds for hostility and bigotry.
Note also that I do not try to set a distinction between major religious groups such as Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Hindus let alone the offshoots of each drilling down to the Southern Baptists vs the Pentacostals.
three sheets
As far as wars fought for non religious reasons they make the religous based wars no less offensive.
Sorry, I just remembered it is Sunday morning and I must be on my way. :gulp:
Trooper_IHB
New member
<em>Trooper - We?ve had this conversation before. The only way I see homosexuals convincing the skeptical is by showing that homosexuals are normal people, not crazy blind hedonists (i.e. portrait of a gay pride parade attendee). </em>
Well, I'm certainly doing my part as are most of my friends.....
<em>In the end, I believe it will be far better for homosexuals if marital rights come out a legislative process (a la the post civil war amendments), not a judicial one.</em>
FYI, the California Legislature passed a gay marriage bill TWICE, but the Governator vetoed it both times. He said, "I think it's a matter for the courts." So we're caught in a catch-22.
Well, I'm certainly doing my part as are most of my friends.....
<em>In the end, I believe it will be far better for homosexuals if marital rights come out a legislative process (a la the post civil war amendments), not a judicial one.</em>
FYI, the California Legislature passed a gay marriage bill TWICE, but the Governator vetoed it both times. He said, "I think it's a matter for the courts." So we're caught in a catch-22.
Millie_IHB
New member
Does anyone have any specific details about outreach with the African-American community on this issue? I have been looking for specific outreach efforts but I cannot find any.
Trooper_IHB
New member
I'm not so in the loop with all the recent info, but I do know we've met several times with reps from the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Christian_Leadership_Conference">Southern Christian Leadership Conference</a> and local A.A. leaders as well.
<a href="http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/arfrican-americ.html">LA Times</a>
<a href="http://www.jasmynecannick.com/blog/">Jasmyne Cannick's blog</a>
<a href="http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/arfrican-americ.html">LA Times</a>
<a href="http://www.jasmynecannick.com/blog/">Jasmyne Cannick's blog</a>
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
Vote for Prop 8 - Protect Marriage!
<img src="http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA08D50_NORMAL.jpg" alt="" />
<em>Just wondering ? had 8 not passed, were a bunch of queers are going to come to my house and attack my marriage? The missus and I weren?t exactly done with it yet, and she is afraid we won't have enough brie or white wine for the after party if too many show up.</em>
<img src="http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA08D50_NORMAL.jpg" alt="" />
<em>Just wondering ? had 8 not passed, were a bunch of queers are going to come to my house and attack my marriage? The missus and I weren?t exactly done with it yet, and she is afraid we won't have enough brie or white wine for the after party if too many show up.</em>
O
Oscar_IHB
Guest
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1229430512]Vote for Prop 8 - Protect Marriage!
<img src="http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA08D50_NORMAL.jpg" alt="" />
<em>Just wondering ? had 8 not passed, were a bunch of queers are going to come to my house and attack my marriage? The missus and I weren?t exactly done with it yet, and she is afraid we won't have enough brie or white wine for the after party if too many show up.</em></blockquote>
Funny that you mentioned this... my wife wondered if straight people were afraid they were going to be ridiculed for their interior design choices and possibly forced to divorce if they couldn't sing the opening song from "Hello, Dolly!"
Fortunately, we can both sing it from memory.
<img src="http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA08D50_NORMAL.jpg" alt="" />
<em>Just wondering ? had 8 not passed, were a bunch of queers are going to come to my house and attack my marriage? The missus and I weren?t exactly done with it yet, and she is afraid we won't have enough brie or white wine for the after party if too many show up.</em></blockquote>
Funny that you mentioned this... my wife wondered if straight people were afraid they were going to be ridiculed for their interior design choices and possibly forced to divorce if they couldn't sing the opening song from "Hello, Dolly!"
Fortunately, we can both sing it from memory.
biscuitninja_IHB
New member
[quote author="Oscar" date=1229431351][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1229430512]Vote for Prop 8 - Protect Marriage!
<img src="http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA08D50_NORMAL.jpg" alt="" />
<em>Just wondering ? had 8 not passed, were a bunch of queers are going to come to my house and attack my marriage? The missus and I weren?t exactly done with it yet, and she is afraid we won't have enough brie or white wine for the after party if too many show up.</em></blockquote>
Funny that you mentioned this... my wife wondered if straight people were afraid they were going to be ridiculed for their interior design choices and possibly forced to divorce if they couldn't sing the opening song from "Hello, Dolly!"
<strong>Fortunately, we can both sing it from memory</strong>.</blockquote>
:lol:
<img src="http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA08D50_NORMAL.jpg" alt="" />
<em>Just wondering ? had 8 not passed, were a bunch of queers are going to come to my house and attack my marriage? The missus and I weren?t exactly done with it yet, and she is afraid we won't have enough brie or white wine for the after party if too many show up.</em></blockquote>
Funny that you mentioned this... my wife wondered if straight people were afraid they were going to be ridiculed for their interior design choices and possibly forced to divorce if they couldn't sing the opening song from "Hello, Dolly!"
<strong>Fortunately, we can both sing it from memory</strong>.</blockquote>
:lol: