Petition IRS to revoke Church of Latter Day Saints tax-exempt status

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There are more Mormons in CA than in Utah.



<a href="http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_8732985">http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_8732985</a>



<blockquote> California is home to more Mormons than any state other than Utah - more than 750,000 - and it proved to have the deepest pockets during Romney's campaign, doling out nearly $8.2 million through Feb. 29 (vs. the $5.5 million raised in Utah), according to the Federal Election Commission. </blockquote>
 
LOL ! We are one resilient community !



<span style="font-size: 14px;"><strong>Utah Leaders Push Forward on LGBT Rights Legislation</strong></span>

<em>

In the wake of Proposition 8, pro-gay Equality Utah is taking the comments of Mormon Church elders as a signal to move forward with legislation that will expand the rights of gays and lesbians in the state, reports The New York Times.



<strong>Defending their members' estimated $20 million contribution to the passage of California's gay marriage ban, leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said they are not antigay and wouldn't deny certain legal protections to gays and lesbians."We are taking the LDS Church at its word," Stephanie Pappas, Equality Utah's chairwoman, told The Times.</strong>



The five pieces of legislation will be sponsored by out state senator Scott McCoy and two lesbian members of the state's house of representatives. McCoy indicated the bills would be ready by January and would aim to advance LGBT rights specifically in areas that Mormon leaders said they would find acceptable.



McCoy added that introducing the series of bills is an attempt to find a positive outlet for the anger that has been stoked by Prop. 8.



?We need to come back down and we need to think, ?OK, now that we are where we are, what is the way we move forward?? ? McCoy said at a news conference. ?And the way that we move forward is to channel that energy and that anger and that disappointment into constructive channels.? (The Advocate)</em>
 
And the LDS church has now responded to Equality Utah's calling their bluff and introducing a Civil Union bill.....



<em>In Utah, gay rights advocates hope to turn the outcome of California's election into expanded rights for gays in their state. Equality Utah, an advocacy group, has seized on a post-election statement from the church that noted that "the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches."



Equality Utah supports the introduction of five bills that would expand those rights for gays in the state.



<strong>Otterson said the church's statement was based on civil unions in California and that no decision has been made regarding similar rights in Utah.



"I don't want to give the impression that the church is saying civil unions in all cases are okay," Otterson said. </em></strong>



Surprise, surprise........
 
Why aren't the folks who are saying that the LDS folks hate gays, also saying that African Americans and Hispanics also hate gays? It seems to be politically correct to attack the religious folks, but where is the public outrage at African Americans and Hispanics?

I am Hispanic and I KNOW ABSOLUTELY that as a culture, Hispanics are homophobic.

LDS contributed the money, but African Americans and Hispanics contributed the votes and it was the votes that counted, (pun intended).

Is it not disingenuous to direct so much anger at the LDS and only a token, (again pun intended), amount of anger at African Americans and Hispanics who are actually responsible for the passage of prop 8?

I am not African American, but my experience and ears tell me that as a group, African Americans are the least enamored of gays of any group in America, including LDS and evangelicals.



(disclosure) - I do not think the state should be involved with marriage, gay or straight.
 
I don't think hispanic or black groups got together in masse to bankroll it, hince the outrage at the LDS community (who did).



Of course, (as usual) Awgee is correct
 
<em>LDS contributed the money, but African Americans and Hispanics contributed the votes and it was the votes that counted,</em>



The African American vote is still being deciphered. We are meeting with their leaders to try and work on it. The Hispanic vote was not nearly as bad as you think. Majority are heavy Catholic, who (Catholic Church) has recently admitted that they joined forces with LDS to support Prop 8. What an unlikely duo !!!



My pissy nature about the LDS is that they contributed between 18-20 MILLION to fund an attack against my civil right. As groups, Blacks and Hispanics did no such thing.



The TV and radio ads that they funded were lies that swayed MANY voters. It was an effective campaign filled with misinformation. So it's not about the votes, it's about the money that was donated and funded those commercials.



Prop 8 will be either invalidated, or overturned within the next 2 years.



Do any of you wonder why I'm not religious ?!
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1228802977]<em>LDS contributed the money, but African Americans and Hispanics contributed the votes and it was the votes that counted,</em>



The African American vote is still being deciphered. We are meeting with their leaders to try and work on it. The Hispanic vote was not nearly as bad as you think. Majority are heavy Catholic, who (Catholic Church) has recently admitted that they joined forces with LDS to support Prop 8. What an unlikely duo !!!



My pissy nature about the LDS is that they contributed between 18-20 MILLION to fund an attack against my civil right. As groups, Blacks and Hispanics did no such thing.



The TV and radio ads that they funded were lies that swayed MANY voters. It was an effective campaign filled with misinformation. So it's not about the votes, it's about the money that was donated and funded those commercials.



Prop 8 will be either invalidated, or overturned within the next 2 years.



Do any of you wonder why I'm not religious ?!</blockquote>
There is nothing to decipher: the black community is overwhelmingly homophobic. Not to be pedantic, but while Mormons may have lobbied the issue, minority voters <strong>decided</strong> the issue. It would seem that the people you need to confront are the ones who <strong><em>actually voted to take away your rights</em></strong>. To be perfectly blunt, MLK didn't bother leading a boycott against the public bus system in Nebraska when Rosa Parks was arrested in Alabama, but that is what the gay community in California is doing. The attempt to pin the blame on the Mormons is not only counter-productive to actually winning back your rights, but it's misleading in it's own right. What proof is there that the black and hispanic voters were swayed to vote for Prop. 8 by the Mormon-funded campaign? What cause is served by attacking an institution that can never accept your existence as normal, based on it's own beliefs, when the people you need to convince are the same people driving next to you on the street?



Why are you so afraid to confront the people that voted away your rights and so eager to confront the people who advocated that position? Are you constitutionally incapable of grasping the reality of the situation, is this why you continue trying to portray the LDS as the only real culprit? I'm asking serious questions here. This thread is littered with other people pointing out what is painfully obvious to everyone else and yet you (and the gay community in general) are myopically fixated on the only people whose votes don't count. Why is that?
 
<em>Why are you so afraid to confront the people that voted away your rights</em>



<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/3055233934_a6899a0e80.jpg?v=0" alt="" />



We aren't. (Leimert Park above, East LA below)



<em>Sunday?s demonstration, organized by a Hispanic group, Latino/a LGBT, began at 1 p.m. at Lincoln Park.</em>



<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/3051209521_c0b29393ab.jpg?v=0" alt="" />



<em>What cause is served by attacking an institution that can never accept your existence as normal, based on it?s own beliefs, when the people you need to convince are the same people driving next to you on the street?</em>



Not like I think Mormons are "normal" either, but I don't donate money to curb their rights. I don't advocate against them. I don't attempt to make them look like pedophiles, freaks or abominations. I just let them be because they didn't bother me.....until now. They brought the fight to us, and we're fighting back. The Catholic Church is no better, but the money came primarily from the LDS members. What don't you understand? And your telling me that you don't think that some people believe what they see on TV? (Ads primarily LDS funded)



Again, I will state that Prop 8 will be overturned. Like it or not, I'm going to be able to get married someday. And I personally won't stop fighting for that basic human right. Why would I? Because of something somebodies religious book says ? LOL !
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1228887068]<em>Why are you so afraid to confront the people that voted away your rights</em>



(a picture of black gay activists)



We aren't. (Leimert Park above, East LA below)



<em>Sunday?s demonstration, organized by a Hispanic group, Latino/a LGBT, began at 1 p.m. at Lincoln Park.</em>



(a picture of latino gay activists)



<em>What cause is served by attacking an institution that can never accept your existence as normal, based on it?s own beliefs, when the people you need to convince are the same people driving next to you on the street?</em></blockquote>
This doesn't qualify as confronting those who voted away your rights, as these people also had their rights voted away. What you don't have pictures of is massive marching by all kinds of gay people into East LA or South Central LA such as those in Hollywood the night after the election. You don't have those pictures because it hasn't happened. Comparing the two marches you posted with those in Hollywood and Silverlake the week after the election is disingenous on your part.

<blockquote>Not like I think Mormons are "normal" either, but I don't donate money to curb their rights. I don't advocate against them. I don't attempt to make them look like pedophiles, freaks or abominations. I just let them be because they didn't bother me.....until now. They brought the fight to us, and we're fighting back. The Catholic Church is no better, but the money came primarily from the LDS members. What don't you understand? And your telling me that you don't think that some people believe what they see on TV? (Ads primarily LDS funded)</blockquote>
I'm saying that black and hispanic voters are unlikely to be swayed by the LDS when their own culture tells them homosexuality is wrong. In other words, even if there had been zero campaigning by either side... Prop 8 still would have passed. This is the key point that the gay community is failing to recognize (or willfully ignoring) when it labels the Mormons as the cause of their disenfranchisement.



<blockquote>Again, I will state that Prop 8 will be overturned. Like it or not, I'm going to be able to get married someday. And I personally won't stop fighting for that basic human right. Why would I? Because of something somebodies religious book says ? LOL !</blockquote>


You know... you clearly dismissed my post about halfway through and apparently replied to what you think I meant. I never said stop fighting, I said stop ignoring your real opponent. I never said I was against you having the same rights as every other human being, I said you had no chance of convincing the Mormon Church to accept it.



I supported the No on 8 campaign. Which is why it is so frustrating to see the reaction to it's passage being uselessly diverted in the wrong direction by the leadership. The justified outrage and anger is being channeled in the wrong direction and to what end? Further demonization of an out of state group that has direct influence over maybe 3/4 of a million voters in CA? How is that going to help change the minds of those who <strong>actually voted against you</strong>? It can't, it won't, but it is a whole lot easier to target a church in another state than it is to go face to face with a community of people in your own city, isn't it.
 
I think the biggest hurdle is education and information. Those things seemed to have been missing during the vote. There have been a number of articles saying that people who had voted yes on 8 would vote NO now.



There's really no need to scape goat California voters. It was the big money funders from out of state and in particular religious cults that drove the yes vote this last election. I saw the yes rallys and they had signs and slogans saying "Free Speech" and " Support Marriage". Well, who wouldnt want those things? And on the surface for voters who didnt really read up on the issue, they did the right thing to support free speech and marriage. Bad on the NO group, for not taking this whole vote more seriously and to bring information and education to casual voters. However, at this point, it is not about getting mad at voters. It is more about getting justice and exposing the big money manipulators who are determined to interfer with politics outside their own safehavens of bigotry and homophobic perversions.
 
I give up. As long as this line of thinking prevails, nothing will change. Get used to your status as less than human because you certainly are earning it.
 
[quote author="Oscar" date=1228898875][quote author="Trooper" date=1228887068]<em>Why are you so afraid to confront the people that voted away your rights</em>



(a picture of black gay activists)



We aren't. (Leimert Park above, East LA below)



<em>Sunday?s demonstration, organized by a Hispanic group, Latino/a LGBT, began at 1 p.m. at Lincoln Park.</em>



(a picture of latino gay activists)



<em>What cause is served by attacking an institution that can never accept your existence as normal, based on it?s own beliefs, when the people you need to convince are the same people driving next to you on the street?</em></blockquote>
This doesn't qualify as confronting those who voted away your rights, as these people also had their rights voted away. What you don't have pictures of is massive marching by all kinds of gay people into East LA or South Central LA such as those in Hollywood the night after the election. You don't have those pictures because it hasn't happened. Comparing the two marches you posted with those in Hollywood and Silverlake the week after the election is disingenous on your part.

<blockquote>Not like I think Mormons are "normal" either, but I don't donate money to curb their rights. I don't advocate against them. I don't attempt to make them look like pedophiles, freaks or abominations. I just let them be because they didn't bother me.....until now. They brought the fight to us, and we're fighting back. The Catholic Church is no better, but the money came primarily from the LDS members. What don't you understand? And your telling me that you don't think that some people believe what they see on TV? (Ads primarily LDS funded)</blockquote>
I'm saying that black and hispanic voters are unlikely to be swayed by the LDS when their own culture tells them homosexuality is wrong. In other words, even if there had been zero campaigning by either side... Prop 8 still would have passed. This is the key point that the gay community is failing to recognize (or willfully ignoring) when it labels the Mormons as the cause of their disenfranchisement.



<blockquote>Again, I will state that Prop 8 will be overturned. Like it or not, I'm going to be able to get married someday. And I personally won't stop fighting for that basic human right. Why would I? Because of something somebodies religious book says ? LOL !</blockquote>


You know... you clearly dismissed my post about halfway through and apparently replied to what you think I meant. I never said stop fighting, I said stop ignoring your real opponent. I never said I was against you having the same rights as every other human being, I said you had no chance of convincing the Mormon Church to accept it.



I supported the No on 8 campaign. Which is why it is so frustrating to see the reaction to it's passage being uselessly diverted in the wrong direction by the leadership. The justified outrage and anger is being channeled in the wrong direction and to what end? Further demonization of an out of state group that has direct influence over maybe 3/4 of a million voters in CA? How is that going to help change the minds of those who <strong>actually voted against you</strong>? It can't, it won't, but it is a whole lot easier to target a church in another state than it is to go face to face with a community of people in your own city, isn't it.</blockquote>


I agree with Oscar. The money for NO on prop 8 should have been spent on educating the minority voters. And, I have said this before, any demographic researcher worth their salt, would have known that a high minority voter turn out would happen with a minority running for president. While I agree with Troop, the money came from the LDS, it is a serious miscalculation of time and resources to be upset with them. If the amount of time and frustration spent currently on the LDS was spent on the minorities starting six months ago, then this wouldn't even be an issue. I bet if 5% of the minority vote was educated enough to swing the other way, then this thread would not exist today.



I donated money to NO on 8, and I feel my money was not used wisely. The LDS got what they wanted, a fight against them, which they knew was a diversion tactic. Unfortunately it worked too well, and the diversion continues. I have high hopes this prop will not last, but as long as you are not seeing the battles around you because you focus on a battle that wants you to ignore the battles around you, then I am not as hopeful. Just because you can find minorities fighting for your cause, doesn't mean they are not an even greater minority within their own ethnicity.
 
<em>What you don?t have pictures of is massive marching by all kinds of gay people into East LA or South Central LA such as those in Hollywood the night after the election.</em>



You are correct, and it's because the world isn't watching South Central and East L.A. <strong> It's watching Hollywood</strong>. That's why the marches went there, to gain the most media exposure. Two of them landed outside the CNN Building on Sunset....and CNN subsequently went live Worldwide with the story. A march into SoCentral would be a waste of time IMO. Not to mention, somewhat dangerous. Meetings are taking place between the leaders of the black and Hispanic communities. Those are what will have the most impact in those two groups. That and we need to be out of the closet, open to our neighbors and family members so they can see the "real face" of us and get over their misconceptions and homophobia. It would be nice if churches stopped teaching that we were an abomination too..... I'm just sayin'. Lemmings believe what lemmings are told. It's hard to combat that.



We are not blaming the LDS solely for our loss, not sure where you are getting that. But we are pretty upset at their funding of 8 and the lies they told in their ads. That's why we protested outside their temples and are now boycotting their businesses. I also don't think we'll change their minds about us, but we'll let them know we're not going to take it quietly. I do know that some progressive Mormon's have left the church because of Prop 8. So perhaps it has made a small bit of difference. Hey, we're also talking about a "church" (cult?) who's "book" said blacks were the spawn of Satan. Oh, but then someone had a revelation in 1978 and decided that "the book" might need some re-interpretation. <a href="http://www.mrm.org/topics/miscellaneous/black-skin-and-seed-cain">Read all about it here</a> It's pretty clear to me that Mormon's do whatever their cult, er...church, tells them to do. They do not think on their own about issues like this. Pretty sad.



I am also pissed at our power brokers for failing in the Prop 8 campaign. I donated more than I'm comfortable admitting, and like Graph, I also think it was wasted. I agree with both of you that our strategy must change, but my anger and contempt towards the LDS won't go away anytime soon. Many changes in the upper echelon of the gay community are happening, new blood is taking their place. We won't repeat this mistake again.



Thank you for your "no" vote on 8.
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1228993341] It's pretty clear to me that Mormon's do whatever their cult, er...church, tells them to do. They do not think on their own about issues like this. Pretty sad.</blockquote>


I work with quite a few Mormon folk who were very much pro Prop 8. They are far from mindless drones. Almost all the Mormons I know are extremely thoughtful and intelligent people (many hold post graduate degrees from the most prestigious universities in the nation). Their opposition to Prop 8 is not based on pure theological principals; it has much more to do with conservatism.



Frankly Trooper, I am a little taken aback at your blanket stereotype of a whole group of people. Do you actually know any Mormons on a personal level?
 
<em>Do you actually know any Mormons on a personal level?</em>



Yes, I do. One is a co-worker who I've known for 10 years. We are close, but not to the point that we do things socially together.



Actually, this is a perfect example of what I'm saying. After Prop 8 passed, we had a discussion about it. I asked him how he voted and he said, "you know how I voted." (which of course, meant Yes on 8) I then asked him, how and why, knowing me for so many years.....would he do that? His answer? "The Church." When I pressed him what he meant by that, he said, "You know my religion is my life." I didn't ask him to elaborate further. We will no longer be friends and I explained exactly why to him. I mean, why would I be friendly with someone who believes that I am a second class citizen ?



The other example is that Manager from El Coyote restaurant in Hollywood, where they have several Prop 8 protests. She always welcomed gay customers, but donated to the Yes on 8 campaign. When it was discovered, she announced that it was due to the fact the Mormon Church told their followers to donate. She then went on to explain that she LOVES the gays, but she couldn't go against her church. WTF !



To me, that screams lemming.



Oh, and here comes <a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid67608.asp">The Vatican's stance: Gays don't need protection</a>



/snip/

<em>The Vatican has come out <strong>against</strong> a United Nations resolution that calls on all governments to decriminalize homosexuality.</em>
 
Trooper, I couldn't agree with you more about the lemming-ness.



In case anyone thinks that this controversy doesn't affect them, ponder this:



"...they came first for the Communists, And I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."



<img src="http://www.wagnerblog.com/images/Lemmings_20_28Fortean_20Times_29_small.jpg" alt="" />
 
<em>Get used to your status as less than human because you certainly are earning it.</em> And that was a cheap shot Oscar.



<img src="http://wallscometumblingdown.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/gay2.jpg" alt="" />
 
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