Trooper_IHB
New member
<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/3043508457_550e46a4e3.jpg?v=0" alt="" />
Petition IRS to revoke Church of Latter Day Saints tax-exempt status
- Thread starter NoWowway_IHB
- Start date
NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
xsocal land merchant_IHB
New member
Hello Trooper
<blockquote>His answer? ?The Church.? When I pressed him what he meant by that, he said, ?You know my religion is my life.? </blockquote>
It is really hard to argue with that type of logic. Throughout history the fact that so many religious people follow the church's directives have led to some of the worst atrocities. Little more needs to be said about those who follow strong dogma without challenging it.
As a recovering Catholic, I know of what I speak.
Stay cool-Be safe
<blockquote>His answer? ?The Church.? When I pressed him what he meant by that, he said, ?You know my religion is my life.? </blockquote>
It is really hard to argue with that type of logic. Throughout history the fact that so many religious people follow the church's directives have led to some of the worst atrocities. Little more needs to be said about those who follow strong dogma without challenging it.
As a recovering Catholic, I know of what I speak.
Stay cool-Be safe
Trooper_IHB
New member
Roger exsocal !
<img src="http://www.bumperart.com/ProductImages/2004012088_Display-25.gif" alt="" />
<img src="http://www.bumperart.com/ProductImages/2004012088_Display-25.gif" alt="" />
Trooper_IHB
New member
I can't help but shake my head at the foolish churches/religions who don't court our inclusion. For the most part, we are DINKS with lots of $$$$. Are you kidding me ?!
[quote author="Trooper" date=1229085037]I can't help but shake my head at the foolish churches/religions who don't court our inclusion. For the most part, we are DINKS with lots of $$$$. Are you kidding me ?!</blockquote>
This may be hard for you to believe, but there actually are people who put their value system above the pursuit of money.
This may be hard for you to believe, but there actually are people who put their value system above the pursuit of money.
Trooper_IHB
New member
My values equal or exceed those of yours WINEX.
profette_IHB
New member
Quotes from <em>Coretta Scott King</em>
"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, <span style="color: red;">'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'</span> I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people."
<span style="color: purple;">"For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people," King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund.... "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."</span>
<strong>"For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law.... I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience.... Like Martin, I don?t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others."</strong>
"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, <span style="color: red;">'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'</span> I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people."
<span style="color: purple;">"For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people," King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund.... "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."</span>
<strong>"For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law.... I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience.... Like Martin, I don?t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others."</strong>
Trooper_IHB
New member
To echo what Prof just said, you only need read the story of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin">Bayard Rustin</a>. He was the main planner of the 1st March of Washington for Black civil rights. He was gay and MLK knew it. He also fought against the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.
[quote author="Trooper" date=1229085935]My values equal or exceed those of yours WINEX.</blockquote>
That's really a ridiculous statement. It's not possible to objectively compare your own value system to that of anyone else. By definition, you are perfectly comfortable with all of your values. But the very fact that you were surprised that people didn't act in a hypocritical manner for financial benefit does say something about your values. Determining whether or not placing money over principle is right or wrong is a subjective judgment. But I certainly know what my own value system says about that kind of thing.
That's really a ridiculous statement. It's not possible to objectively compare your own value system to that of anyone else. By definition, you are perfectly comfortable with all of your values. But the very fact that you were surprised that people didn't act in a hypocritical manner for financial benefit does say something about your values. Determining whether or not placing money over principle is right or wrong is a subjective judgment. But I certainly know what my own value system says about that kind of thing.
Trooper_IHB
New member
<em>That?s really a ridiculous statement. It?s not possible to objectively compare your own value system to that of anyone else. By definition, you are perfectly comfortable with all of your values. But the very fact that you were surprised that people didn?t act in a hypocritical manner for financial benefit does say something about your values. Determining whether or not placing money over principle is right or wrong is a subjective judgment. But I certainly know what my own value system says about that kind of thing.</em>
I read this, but all I got was blah, blah, blah, blah..... same old thing. The "Democracy" vote on Prop 8 was due to the "Theocracy". The "values" are the various churches values. Lemmings don't know how to mold their own lives. You are a perfect example of that.
Winex, I would challenge you to find a more ethical person than myself.
I read this, but all I got was blah, blah, blah, blah..... same old thing. The "Democracy" vote on Prop 8 was due to the "Theocracy". The "values" are the various churches values. Lemmings don't know how to mold their own lives. You are a perfect example of that.
Winex, I would challenge you to find a more ethical person than myself.
profette_IHB
New member
[quote author="WINEX" date=1229088920][quote author="Trooper" date=1229085935]My values equal or exceed those of yours WINEX.</blockquote>
That's really a ridiculous statement. It's not possible to objectively compare your own value system to that of anyone else. By definition, you are perfectly comfortable with all of your values. But the very fact that you were surprised that people didn't act in a hypocritical manner for financial benefit does say something about your values. Determining whether or not placing money over principle is right or wrong is a subjective judgment. But I certainly know what my own value system says about that kind of thing.</blockquote>
In comparing the values that WINEX expouses and those expressed by MLK and Mrs. King, I would have to say that the world would be a better place if everyone adopted the values of MLK.
That's really a ridiculous statement. It's not possible to objectively compare your own value system to that of anyone else. By definition, you are perfectly comfortable with all of your values. But the very fact that you were surprised that people didn't act in a hypocritical manner for financial benefit does say something about your values. Determining whether or not placing money over principle is right or wrong is a subjective judgment. But I certainly know what my own value system says about that kind of thing.</blockquote>
In comparing the values that WINEX expouses and those expressed by MLK and Mrs. King, I would have to say that the world would be a better place if everyone adopted the values of MLK.
Trooper_IHB
New member
Hey, look !! I found a pic of WINEX !!! Simply of foot soldier of g*d.
<img src="http://www.conversationmarketing.com/Lemming.jpg" alt="" />
<img src="http://www.conversationmarketing.com/Lemming.jpg" alt="" />
kevin_IHB
New member
[quote author="Trooper" date=1229074777]<em>Do you actually know any Mormons on a personal level?</em>
Yes, I do. One is a co-worker who I've known for 10 years. We are close, but not to the point that we do things socially together.
Actually, this is a perfect example of what I'm saying. After Prop 8 passed, we had a discussion about it. I asked him how he voted and he said, "you know how I voted." (which of course, meant Yes on 8) I then asked him, how and why, knowing me for so many years.....would he do that? His answer? "The Church." When I pressed him what he meant by that, he said, "You know my religion is my life." I didn't ask him to elaborate further. We will no longer be friends and I explained exactly why to him. I mean, why would I be friendly with someone who believes that I am a second class citizen ?
The other example is that Manager from El Coyote restaurant in Hollywood, where they have several Prop 8 protests. She always welcomed gay customers, but donated to the Yes on 8 campaign. When it was discovered, she announced that it was due to the fact the Mormon Church told their followers to donate. She then went on to explain that she LOVES the gays, but she couldn't go against her church. WTF !
To me, that screams lemming.
Oh, and here comes <a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid67608.asp">The Vatican's stance: Gays don't need protection</a>
/snip/
<em>The Vatican has come out <strong>against</strong> a United Nations resolution that calls on all governments to decriminalize homosexuality.</em></blockquote>
All I can do is speak from my experience and my experience with Mormons couldn?t be more opposite than your experience. I would expect you, who has bemoaned the stereotyping of homosexuals, to acknowledge that, just like stereotyping every homosexual as an ass-less chap wearing cross dressing-gay pride parade attendee, stereotyping every Mormon (or all religious folk) as a mindless lemming 1) does not reflect reality and 2) is a flagrant form of prejudice in and of itself.
I don?t think either side can claim King as their own. Let?s not forget that MLK was extremely conservative in his religious beliefs; he was a Baptist minister. Although his wife has been supportive of homosexual marriage, his daughter has been as outspoken against it. The fact that a majority of African Americans do not support homosexual marriage coupled with the fact that prominent contemporary African American civil rights leaders do not support gay marriage (i.e. Jackson, Sharpton and Farakhan), who all pledge steadfast allegiance to King, indicates that King may not have been supportive of the issue. The truth is that no one in the homosexual debate can claim ownership of King because he never made his opinion known ? or may not have had a position at all.
To pigeonhole people who don?t support homosexual marriage as religious idiots is a classic straw man. I don?t think anyone would suggest that Bill Clinton, Obama or Biden are mindless religious lemmings ? yet all of them do not support homosexual marriage. If you frame the debate as civil rights vs. religious bigotry, you fail to address the real issue and you will not convince anyone to join your ranks.
Yes, I do. One is a co-worker who I've known for 10 years. We are close, but not to the point that we do things socially together.
Actually, this is a perfect example of what I'm saying. After Prop 8 passed, we had a discussion about it. I asked him how he voted and he said, "you know how I voted." (which of course, meant Yes on 8) I then asked him, how and why, knowing me for so many years.....would he do that? His answer? "The Church." When I pressed him what he meant by that, he said, "You know my religion is my life." I didn't ask him to elaborate further. We will no longer be friends and I explained exactly why to him. I mean, why would I be friendly with someone who believes that I am a second class citizen ?
The other example is that Manager from El Coyote restaurant in Hollywood, where they have several Prop 8 protests. She always welcomed gay customers, but donated to the Yes on 8 campaign. When it was discovered, she announced that it was due to the fact the Mormon Church told their followers to donate. She then went on to explain that she LOVES the gays, but she couldn't go against her church. WTF !
To me, that screams lemming.
Oh, and here comes <a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid67608.asp">The Vatican's stance: Gays don't need protection</a>
/snip/
<em>The Vatican has come out <strong>against</strong> a United Nations resolution that calls on all governments to decriminalize homosexuality.</em></blockquote>
All I can do is speak from my experience and my experience with Mormons couldn?t be more opposite than your experience. I would expect you, who has bemoaned the stereotyping of homosexuals, to acknowledge that, just like stereotyping every homosexual as an ass-less chap wearing cross dressing-gay pride parade attendee, stereotyping every Mormon (or all religious folk) as a mindless lemming 1) does not reflect reality and 2) is a flagrant form of prejudice in and of itself.
I don?t think either side can claim King as their own. Let?s not forget that MLK was extremely conservative in his religious beliefs; he was a Baptist minister. Although his wife has been supportive of homosexual marriage, his daughter has been as outspoken against it. The fact that a majority of African Americans do not support homosexual marriage coupled with the fact that prominent contemporary African American civil rights leaders do not support gay marriage (i.e. Jackson, Sharpton and Farakhan), who all pledge steadfast allegiance to King, indicates that King may not have been supportive of the issue. The truth is that no one in the homosexual debate can claim ownership of King because he never made his opinion known ? or may not have had a position at all.
To pigeonhole people who don?t support homosexual marriage as religious idiots is a classic straw man. I don?t think anyone would suggest that Bill Clinton, Obama or Biden are mindless religious lemmings ? yet all of them do not support homosexual marriage. If you frame the debate as civil rights vs. religious bigotry, you fail to address the real issue and you will not convince anyone to join your ranks.
xsocal land merchant_IHB
New member
<blockquote>Let?s not forget that MLK was extremely conservative in his religious beliefs; he was a Baptist minister.</blockquote>
Didn't he have a mistress or two? Again I just can't go down the religious line based on the high amount of hypocracy involved.
Just the facts.
Didn't he have a mistress or two? Again I just can't go down the religious line based on the high amount of hypocracy involved.
Just the facts.
kevin_IHB
New member
[quote author="xsocal land merchant" date=1229143266]<blockquote>Let?s not forget that MLK was extremely conservative in his religious beliefs; he was a Baptist minister.</blockquote>
Didn't he have a mistress or two? Again I just can't go down the religious line based on the high amount of hypocracy involved.
Just the facts.</blockquote>
What's your point? Is he less religious because he had an affair? Most religious figures were considerably more flawed than MLK. Most secular ones too... Hypocrisy and evil is a human condition, not a religious human condition.
Didn't he have a mistress or two? Again I just can't go down the religious line based on the high amount of hypocracy involved.
Just the facts.</blockquote>
What's your point? Is he less religious because he had an affair? Most religious figures were considerably more flawed than MLK. Most secular ones too... Hypocrisy and evil is a human condition, not a religious human condition.
awgee_IHB
New member
[quote author="xsocal land merchant" date=1229143266]<blockquote>Let?s not forget that MLK was extremely conservative in his religious beliefs; he was a Baptist minister.</blockquote>
Didn't he have a mistress or two? Again I just can't go down the religious line based on the high amount of hypocracy involved.
Just the facts.</blockquote>
Our pastor has a saying, "If hypocrites did not attend church, church would be empty."
Didn't he have a mistress or two? Again I just can't go down the religious line based on the high amount of hypocracy involved.
Just the facts.</blockquote>
Our pastor has a saying, "If hypocrites did not attend church, church would be empty."
Trooper_IHB
New member
Ted Haggard comes to mind......
three sheets, what would you propose my community do with the LDS ? Trying from within doesn't work, gays get ex-communicated. Heck, even Mormon heteros who support us get <a href="http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Man-faces-possible-excommunication-from-LDS/6Cvu_py9FEOIv-LmCuK8pA.cspx">ex-communicated.</a>
I would be interested to hear your suggestions.
three sheets, what would you propose my community do with the LDS ? Trying from within doesn't work, gays get ex-communicated. Heck, even Mormon heteros who support us get <a href="http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Man-faces-possible-excommunication-from-LDS/6Cvu_py9FEOIv-LmCuK8pA.cspx">ex-communicated.</a>
I would be interested to hear your suggestions.
O
Oscar_IHB
Guest
[quote author="Trooper" date=1229157077]Ted Haggard comes to mind......
three sheets, what would you propose my community do with the LDS ? Trying from within doesn't work, gays get ex-communicated. Heck, even Mormon heteros who support us get <a href="http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Man-faces-possible-excommunication-from-LDS/6Cvu_py9FEOIv-LmCuK8pA.cspx">ex-communicated.</a>
I would be interested to hear your suggestions.</blockquote>
Ignore them. I told you before, there is no way you are ging to convince them to accept you. Learn lessons from past successful civil rights action, namely focus on those who are <strong>actually taking away</strong> your rights and not those who merely <strong>advocate</strong> it. Yes, it's going to be dangerous but history is filled with those who willingly gave their lives for what they believed in and, if you haven't noticed, that tactic works. If push comes to shove and you are willing to die for your cause, it's a safe bet that the other side is going to back down as soon as it costs them more than marking an x in a box. On that point, you are mistaken about something: the media goes where the action is and had the march on 11/5 occured along the southbound lanes of the 605 instead of Hollywood, you would have gotten just as much (if not more) media attention. It's not enough to march in safe areas where people tolerate your presence, you have to get in the face of the people who took away your rights and demand that you be treated equally, you have to be willing to go to jail, and you have to be prepared to fight for your civil liberty because no one is just going to give it to you. California history has now proven that, multiple times.
three sheets, what would you propose my community do with the LDS ? Trying from within doesn't work, gays get ex-communicated. Heck, even Mormon heteros who support us get <a href="http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Man-faces-possible-excommunication-from-LDS/6Cvu_py9FEOIv-LmCuK8pA.cspx">ex-communicated.</a>
I would be interested to hear your suggestions.</blockquote>
Ignore them. I told you before, there is no way you are ging to convince them to accept you. Learn lessons from past successful civil rights action, namely focus on those who are <strong>actually taking away</strong> your rights and not those who merely <strong>advocate</strong> it. Yes, it's going to be dangerous but history is filled with those who willingly gave their lives for what they believed in and, if you haven't noticed, that tactic works. If push comes to shove and you are willing to die for your cause, it's a safe bet that the other side is going to back down as soon as it costs them more than marking an x in a box. On that point, you are mistaken about something: the media goes where the action is and had the march on 11/5 occured along the southbound lanes of the 605 instead of Hollywood, you would have gotten just as much (if not more) media attention. It's not enough to march in safe areas where people tolerate your presence, you have to get in the face of the people who took away your rights and demand that you be treated equally, you have to be willing to go to jail, and you have to be prepared to fight for your civil liberty because no one is just going to give it to you. California history has now proven that, multiple times.
xsocal land merchant_IHB
New member
<blockquote>What?s your point? Is he less religious because he had an affair? Most religious figures were considerably more flawed than MLK. Most secular ones too? Hypocrisy and evil is a human condition, not a religious human condition.</blockquote>
I guess it is ok to pick and choose which rules, laws, commandments, or whatever they are called that one wants to obey. Thats the part of organized religion I have never understood.
Some of the worst most dishonest people that I have dealt with often have a fish symbol on their checks or bumpers.
So according to the above statement then adultery is ok but allowing gays to marry isn't? Sounds like picking from a munu of whatever fits ones beliefs.
You don't have to read between the lines, I don't agree the basic philosophy of organised religions. Many have terrorized certain other groups through out history.
I am sure that most folks here don't need me to provide examples.
Have a fantastic weekend
I guess it is ok to pick and choose which rules, laws, commandments, or whatever they are called that one wants to obey. Thats the part of organized religion I have never understood.
Some of the worst most dishonest people that I have dealt with often have a fish symbol on their checks or bumpers.
So according to the above statement then adultery is ok but allowing gays to marry isn't? Sounds like picking from a munu of whatever fits ones beliefs.
You don't have to read between the lines, I don't agree the basic philosophy of organised religions. Many have terrorized certain other groups through out history.
I am sure that most folks here don't need me to provide examples.
Have a fantastic weekend