Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts

[fortune11]

This will be big ... and mark a turning point in history where a cascading effect will take place in the weeks and months to come

For all of Trump's other flaws , he does have a good pulse on public moods (when and if it tips more than 65-70% in one direction) ...  and he will be the first to claim credit here, if any is to be taken. 

NRA hasn't dealt with high school kids  ... and this level of social media pressure .... yet ... they are about to find out what they are up against 


Florida teen shooting survivors announce 'March for Our Lives' demonstration in DC


Teen survivors of the school shooting massacre in Florida last week are calling for a march on Washington to demand action on gun control.

Student organizers of the protest told ABC News' "This Week" Co-Anchor Martha Raddatz on Sunday that they are determined to use protests and political action to make the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas in Parkland, Florida, a turning point in the national debate over gun control.

?People keep asking us, 'What about the Stoneman Douglas shooting is going to be different, because this has happened before and change hasn't come?'? Cameron Kasky, an 11th-grader told Raddatz. ?This is it.?

?People are saying that it?s not time to talk about gun control. And we can respect that,? Kasky added. ?Here?s a time. March 24th in every single city. We are going to be marching together as students begging for our lives.?

Called "March for Our Lives," the demonstration should transcend politics, according to Kasky and four of his classmates whom Raddatz also interviewed -- Emma Gonzalez, David Hogg, Alex Wind and Jaclyn Corin.

"This isn't about the GOP," Kasky said. "This isn't about the Democrats. This is about the adults. We feel neglected and at this point, you're either with us or against us."

PHOTO: South Broward High School sophomore Genesis Campbell leads her classmates in protest in front of their school, Feb. 16, 2018, in response to a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.Dorothy Edwards/Naples Daily News via USA Today Network
South Broward High School sophomore Genesis Campbell leads her classmates in protest in front of their school, Feb. 16, 2018, in response to a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.more +
?Any politician on either side who is taking money from the NRA is responsible for events like this,? the high school junior said of the shooting on Feb. 14 that killed 17 students and teachers at the school. ?At the end of the day, the NRA is fostering and promoting this gun culture.?

Kasky said the point is to "create a new normal where there's a badge of shame on any politician who's accepting money from the NRA.?

Gonzalez added that the student activists from Parkland want to have conversations about guns with President Donald Trump, Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and Gov. Rick Scott, also a Republican.

?We want to give them the opportunity to be on the right side of this,? she said.

Raddatz asked Gonzalez what she would say to other students around the country to encourage them to join the protest.

The high school senior said, "The kids who need to take part in this are kids, everyday kids just like us. They are students who need to understand that this can very quickly happen to them ... They need to join us, and they need to help us get our message across. All students should realize that a school shooting could happen anywhere."

 

[Liar Loan]

So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

 

[irvinehomeowner]

So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

The wall+metal detector.

 

[fortune11]

After Florida School Shooting, Russian ?Bot? Army Pounced

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/technology/russian-bots-school-shooting.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

 

[wrigley]

So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

This is a complex problem that requires attacking from multiple directions.  I find it a little disturbing that people feel a need to make jokes about it.  Gun control is only one aspect.  The frustration these students feel is that literally NOTHING has been done.  You can both protect the second amendment and make it more difficult for these tragedies to occur.  It seems to require more thought and perspective than our partisan society is capable of. 

 

[Kings]

So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

This is a complex problem that requires attacking from multiple directions.  I find it a little disturbing that people feel a need to make jokes about it.  Gun control is only one aspect.  The frustration these students feel is that literally NOTHING has been done.  You can both protect the second amendment and make it more difficult for these tragedies to occur.  It seems to require more thought and perspective than our partisan society is capable of.

Perhaps we need to be a more accepting and kinder society?  Apparently this guy was bullied and ridiculed, probably for his whole life.  We're so quick to blame "the gun", but it sounds to me like his peers certainly played a part in creating this monster.  There's a reason he chose to shoot up the school, as opposed to a grocery store or a mall.  He decided he was going to make a power play on the people who mocked him his whole life.

To Cruz, the campus? sun-splashed courtyards were a dark place where he was mocked and ridiculed for his odd behavior, according to interviews with close family friends, students and recently released police and mental health reports.

?Someone could have approached a faculty member, a guidance counselor, a teacher and said, ?This kid gets bullied a lot, someone should do something,? ? said student Manolo Alvarez, 17, who had history class with Cruz. ?I regret definitely not saying anything.?

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200754714.html

 

[Ready2Downsize]

So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

Probably none but what is so frustrating in this particular case is there were tips about this guy, he was expelled and not allowed to be on campus with a backpack, etc. The FBI knew about him and then we get this tragedy.

My brother in law had lots of guns (for hunting).

He and my sister in law tried for years to get us to move close to them (Colfax on 13 acres) and the one thing that always comes to mind when I think of him is what he said to us at least 30 years ago.......... "Its not good to have so many people live so close together and mark my words, violence and mental health problems are going to come up and that's why we moved out here". It's not like he lived like Ted Kazinski. They had regular jobs, public schools, etc but they were firm believers that pushing people so close together is just not a good thing.

After they moved they never locked their doors. They did have two dogs and those guns to protect their abode. No way was he about to give up those guns....... but then again he did use them for hunting. His hunting and fishing trips were at least a month long. I never knew them to buy meat from the grocery store. They only ate what they brought home from the wild.

Deer that were caught eating my sister in law's flowers didn't live to tell about it. That took care of their deer problem.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I'm not really into the whole gun control issue but from a high view, banning of a certain type of gun doesn't really address the problem.

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

And I know we focus on schools because that's where the higher concentration of our kids are, but these things can happen at malls and other public places where security is even more lax. I think the only real solution is preventative at the location like Downtown Disney... bag checks and metal detectors.

But that's almost impossible for areas which don't have fences and are open like most of Irvine's schools for example... or any park. So then what?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

I don't understand this at all.  14 more kids living is a good thing...not a negative. 

So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Honestly...at this point....I am pretty much done with the "gun debate"  I have seen so many strawman, hyperboles, and crazy "slippery slope" arguments on here and on FB that I am pretty convinced that none of the gun rights advocates are actually willing to listen and compromise.

So the only good thing that may come out of this horrific shooting is that the younger generation of people will lead us to a new future where guns are not more important than people.  Sorry young people...our generation keeps messing things up for you.

 

[momopi]

https://mystudentapt.com/2015/10/06/theres-a-way-to-stop-mass-shootings-and-you-wont-like-it/

The article is titled "you won't like it" because it requires the students to do something personally, like engaging (being kind to) outcasts and loners on personal level instead of feel good marches & shouting at the government to do something for them.

Consider if you have a young coworker named Akbar with opposing socio-political views.  Regardless of your opinions you should never be rude or unkind because some day when he goes to a prayer meeting and a jihadi recruiter with forked tongue tries to recruit him, every interaction he has had with people like you and me will affect his decision.

In the dark corners of the internet you will find angry people who calls school shooting as acts of "pest control" and the school shooters "martyrs".  Reaching those dark corners is just a click away from your mouse or smartphone where angry people egg others on.  It takes many years to build up that level of hate, and we continue to squander every opportunity to turn them around.

 

[morekaos]

Nothing will change on this topic till this generation dies out.  Just going to have to wait.

Just like i said days ago.  Nothing will come of all these "protest marches" and hand wringing

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

I don't understand this at all.  14 more kids living is a good thing...not a negative. 

Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.

So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.

Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.

 

[Liar Loan]

I think the existing gun restrictions should have prevented him from purchasing an AR-15.

-He was reported to the FBI as recently as Jan 5th.  (One other time as well.)
-It's coming out today that he was reported to school administration at least 3 times.
-He had brought weapons to school in the past - knives to sell on one occasion and bullets on another occasion.
-He had been in fights.
-He had verbally threatened to kills students and parents.
-He physically abused his girlfriend, then stalked her when she broke up with him.

So why was he not arrested?  Well, there are some theories starting to float around.

A few years ago Broward County schools implemented new policies to reduce the number of arrests, particularly for black and hispanic students (of which Cruz is categorized).  They scrapped 'Zero Tolerance' in favor of eliminating the 'School-to-Prison Pipeline'.

Reversing Broward County's School-to-Prison Pipeline
DECEMBER 4, 2013

When, after a nationwide search, he was hired two years ago to serve as superintendent of Florida?s Broward County Public Schools, Robert Runcie began brainstorming ways to close the racial achievement gap. At the time, black students in the sixth-largest district in the country had a graduation rate of only 61 percent compared to 81 percent for white students. To find out why, Runcie, who once headed a management-consulting firm, went to the data.

?One of the first things I saw was a huge differential in minority students, black male students in particular, in terms of suspensions and arrests,? he says. Black students made up two-thirds of all suspensions during the 2011-2012 school year despite comprising only 40 percent of the student body. And while there were 15,000 serious incidents like assaults and drug possession reported that year, 85 percent of all 82,000 suspensions were for minor incidents?use of profanity, disruptions of class?and 71 percent of all 1,000-plus arrests were for misdemeanors. The last statistic, says Runcie, ?was a huge red flag.?

Broward announced broad changes designed to mitigate the use of harsh punishments for minor misbehavior at the beginning of this school year. While other districts have amended their discipline codes, prohibited arrests in some circumstances, and developed alternatives to suspension, Broward was able to do all these things at once with the cooperation of a group  that included a member of the local NAACP, a school board member, a public defender, a local sheriff, a state prosecutor, and several others. In early November, The Miami Herald reported that suspensions were already down 40 percent and arrests were down 66 percent. Yet these changes required years of advocacy. The hard scrabble road to Broward?s success also helps explain why zero tolerance policies have persisted.

http://prospect.org/article/reversing-broward-countys-school-prison-pipeline

It's funny how something recently viewed as a success story, may soon be viewed as an absolute failure to protect students.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.

Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.

Nope.

What I said is anyone dying, no matter the number, is a big deal.

So just reducing the number is not good enough... we should do that and we also have to do other things that prevents all violence altogether.

I think you're reading my first sentence about "not being into gun control" as I don't believe in gun control. What I meant is I don't follow all the gun control issues and statistics.

From there, you've colored all my other statements as evidence that I don't think we should do anything whereas I think we should do anything that looks at different angles that not just cover gun violence but all violence.

Sorry man... not gonna catch me in your trap.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.

Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.

Nope.

What I said is anyone dying, no matter the number, is a big deal.

So just reducing the number is not good enough... we should do that and we also have to do other things that prevents all violence altogether.

I think you're reading my first sentence about "not being into gun control" as I don't believe in gun control. What I meant is I don't follow all the gun control issues and statistics.

From there, you've colored all my other statements as evidence that I don't think we should do anything whereas I think we should do anything that looks at different angles that not just cover gun violence but all violence.

Sorry man... not gonna catch me in your trap.

It's not a trap.  You basically said even if gun control works...so what it's not perfect.

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

It may not be perfect but if it works...it's certainly a step worth taking.  No one has ever said that the it is the only solution.  It is the only solution that is apparently not allowed to be on the table.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.

Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.

Nope.

What I said is anyone dying, no matter the number, is a big deal.

So just reducing the number is not good enough... we should do that and we also have to do other things that prevents all violence altogether.

I think you're reading my first sentence about "not being into gun control" as I don't believe in gun control. What I meant is I don't follow all the gun control issues and statistics.

From there, you've colored all my other statements as evidence that I don't think we should do anything whereas I think we should do anything that looks at different angles that not just cover gun violence but all violence.

Sorry man... not gonna catch me in your trap.

It's not a trap.  You basically said even if gun control works...so what it's not perfect.

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

It may not be perfect but if it works...it's certainly a step worth taking.  No one has ever said that the it is the only solution.  It is the only solution that is apparently not allowed to be on the table.

Did I ever say it's not a step worth taking? All I said was it's not enough. You keep quoting my post out of context, the bolded parts are what you are ignoring:

I'm not really into the whole gun control issue but from a high view, banning of a certain type of gun doesn't really address the problem.

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

And I know we focus on schools because that's where the higher concentration of our kids are, but these things can happen at malls and other public places where security is even more lax. I think the only real solution is preventative at the location like Downtown Disney... bag checks and metal detectors.

But that's almost impossible for areas which don't have fences and are open like most of Irvine's schools for example... or any park. So then what?

Gun control fails in the areas I bolded.

So even if we had perfect gun control, bad things can happen.

That doesn't mean I am saying we shouldn't have gun control. What it means is we should do that AND more.

Does that make sense to you yet? For some reason you keep focusing on me saying that gun control isn't enough... and you are making that into some leap that I am saying we shouldn't do anything. When what I am saying is "What else can we do *in addition to* gun control?".

Again, you are looking for something to argue with me about and it's just not there.

 

[morekaos]

Nothing.

Tearful Parkland survivors watch Florida House reject assault gun ban

http://dailym.ai/2oc9XgI

 

[riznick]

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-liveshttps://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/

One of my peeve's is fake science acting like it's real science.  Sorry, but science requires adequate controls and a lot more.  Statistics can be given a biased perspective. 
I think "studies" or "statistics" would be better than "scientific evidence". 

BTW, I don't necessarily disagree with those studies.  Just pointing out a peeve.

Here's a counter argument:
Math might show that gun control leads to more innocent deaths...  (maybe)

Oh but that's all a long time ago.  Well...  My immediate family needed a gun to escape Vietnam.