Obama ruining the country?

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[quote author="Look4house" date=1249471740][quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249470599]

You hit the nail on the head when it comes to my two major beefs with out current method of health care.



1. Why are people willing to put their lives into the hands of companies that are FOR PROFIT? Doesn't that kind of mean they need to cover as little as possible to reap more profit? They hire doctors and nurses to find ways to deny coverage to people. I am talking INSURANCE COMPANIES. All this system does is make health care delivery about paperwork, which sucks resources. It is just stupid to think insurance company execs are so ethical to actually care about the health and welfare of Americans. BULL!



2. The fact is that the days have passed where people have the same job for 20 years. People are now temp workers. They are independent consultants. They are contractors. They are self employed. And how many millions get laid off or fired, and then are unemployed? Which means that these millions and millions do not have access to this employer based system. Take it from the wife of an independent consultant for 10 years, trying to get individual health coverage is a NIGHTMARE.



I just think our entire system needs to be rethought.</blockquote>


It is undeniable that there are major flaws in our healthcare system when patients are told what they need and don't need. There is no question that private insurances, HMOs are chipping away freedoms and money from everyone.The better healthcare model should put doctors and patients with more control. I don't see a government run health insurance is the solution when politics will be part of the decision making process. We do need to ensure that healthcare is affordable and majority of people is willing to pay for it. We should increase funding to provide preventative and primary care and programs to avoid costly hospitalizations and emergency rooms visits. There are a lot more to healthcare, but it is not an easy fix, or we would have fix it already.</blockquote>




Can you explain to me how a single payor system would take control away from doctors and patients? A single payor system like they have in Canada does not (I REPEAT NOT) change the way healthcare is DELIVERED -- it changes the way healthcare is PAID FOR. So all these scaremongers who say everything will be rationed and all medical personnel will become government slaves are just trying to distract from a meaningful discussion!



So you seem to see it a better model when insurance companies get to say what healthcare we get? But that is what we got now under our current employer based, insurance model.



Ok, now you are just ridiculous when you say the solution is to "Make it more affordable" so that the majority will "pay for it". COME ON! Drrrrr. How is paying insurance companies to create red tape a good idea? How does that contribute to making it more affordable?



Yes, fixing this mess will not be easy. Especially when you have people trying to deny the actual options available.... especially when you have scaremongers predicting an end to life as we know it....



SMART PEOPLE would look to other countries for inspiration. SMART PEOPLE would not make this about politics but what is BEST for the ENTIRE country.
 
[quote author="Look4house" date=1249475756][quote author="tmare" date=1249471318]



Ok, let's start over. You seem to have a particular problem with education, what EXACTLY is your problem and how would you propose to fix it? I would also have to add that other people have problems with several of the issues that Obama is specifically trying to fix, but if you could clearly explain your problem and prescription for education, I might have a little better idea of where you are coming from.</blockquote>


If I have the crystal ball, I would be in Washington working with Mr. Obama. But let me say that our education system is broken for years. And funding is always the issue. Teachers are the one of the most underrated profession. It is hard to recruit the best when we pay teachers an avergae of $50,000. Teachers don't need to be the smartest academically, but they need to be the best in bringing out the potentials of each student, promote teamwork, encourage critical thinking, and prepare students as leaders. We need to ensure candidates find the job to be satisfying and rewarding. An incentive-based pay scale has been proposed and teachers will be rewarded based on productivity. We want to encourage teachers and students work together and communicate effectively.



Cost of higher education is spiraling out of control. And it is an extemely difficult issue to correct. I am not a big fan that college sports generate big time revenue and help coaches make millions and there should be laws/tax laws (capitations) to channel some of these money into the classroom for students and professors.</blockquote>


It would seem this guy is good at two things:



1. Stating the obvious about what we need



and



2. Criticizing any ideas to help without giving any creative ideas of his own.
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1249512361]Bush presided over the worst terrorist attack in this nations history.

An attack launched by Al Qaida that could have been stopped by the Clinton Admin.

Al Qaida had already committed an act of war against the US by bombing the USS Cole on 10/12/00.

Clinton had Osama Bin Laden in his cross hairs and didn't pull the trigger.



<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4540958/">Osama bin Laden: missed opportunities</a>



?The most important thing the Clinton administration could have done would have been for the president, either himself or by going to Congress, asking for a congressional declaration to declare war on al-Qaida, a military-political organization that had declared war on us.?



So when you say Bush inherited from Clinton a world at peace that is a blazing misrepresenation of the truth.



The first Bush forced Sadam Hussein out of Kuwait in the first gulf war. Saddam signed a cease fire as the US armed forces were marching toward Bagdad. Part of the Cease fire agreement was to allow Weapons inspections. During the Clinton Admin it was almost nightly news that Saddam was at it again making the inspectors wait while trucks drove away.



Saddam was like a little kid that had their hands behind their back. What you got in your hand Saddam? Nothing. Show me then! No I don't have anything. Anyone with kids will tell you that you better look to see what is in his hands. Clinton sat around saying ok I will close my eyes and when I open them show me your hands.



Saddam played the wrong game had he opened up ALL of his weapons facilities to inspection there is NO WAY Bush would have had any reason to bomb Iraq. Even if there were no WMD's the cease fire required Saddam to submit to weapons inspections and he refused.



This goverment also has checks and balances in place and if the Democrats so chose they could have blocked the Iraq War Resolution in the Senate. 29 Dems voted Yay and 21 voted nay. If they all voted Nay and you add in the independant vote of nay and the one republican vote of nay you have the bill being defeated 62 nays to 48 yays.



No unjust war. So any dem that voted Yay in the Congress and Senate should all be considered an idiot for voting yay. Send them all home folks.



Who was the president when the Glass Stegal act was repealed? Most people now agree that is where this whole banking mess started. If you don't know it was Clinton.



So if we want to play it was all Bush's fault lets see.



9/11 could have been averted had Clinton declared war on Al Queda and taken a more aggressive action agains Al Qaida and killed Bin Laden.

Iraq war could have been averted if Clinton had some cajones and insisted Sadam submit to weapons inspections with the threat of force.

The Banking collapse may have been averted if Clinton didn't sign the Glass Steagall act.



Now Clinton is a hero because he got Lisa Ling's sister out of N. Korea.

Oh and lets not forget that Clinton signed the Telecom Deregulations Act and presided over the .com boom that stimulated the economy.

Once the Bust occured and the Telecom's were going bankrupt Clinton was long gone.

Heck lets throw Enron in here to boot.



<strong>So what did Bush inherit again?</strong>



Did I miss anything?</blockquote>


Yeah well not everyone buys that line of bull either.

<span style="font-size: 15px;">

http://www.911truth.org/</span>
 
<blockquote>Can you explain to me how a single payor system would take control away from doctors and patients? A single payor system like they have in Canada does not (I REPEAT NOT) change the way healthcare is DELIVERED -- it changes the way healthcare is PAID FOR. So all these scaremongers who say everything will be rationed and all medical personnel will become government slaves are just trying to distract from a meaningful discussion!



So you seem to see it a better model when insurance companies get to say what healthcare we get? But that is what we got now under our current employer based, insurance model.



Ok, now you are just ridiculous when you say the solution is to "Make it more affordable" so that the majority will "pay for it". COME ON! Drrrrr. How is paying insurance companies to create red tape a good idea? How does that contribute to making it more affordable?



Yes, fixing this mess will not be easy. Especially when you have people trying to deny the actual options available.... especially when you have scaremongers predicting an end to life as we know it....



SMART PEOPLE would look to other countries for inspiration. SMART PEOPLE would not make this about politics but what is BEST for the ENTIRE country</blockquote>.



<strong>I have an idea why don't you explain to me exactly how the Canadian system works. </strong>
 
[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607348]It would seem this guy is good at two things:



1. Stating the obvious about what we need



and



2. Criticizing any ideas to help without giving any creative ideas of his own.</blockquote>


I will be blunt. 1. If you don't know what the problems are, how are you going to find a solution? What ideas do you have for the current direction of the country, healthcare, education, public services, economy? Or you just like to accuse someone because you know nothing about polictics or you have no idea what the problems are? Show me you know what you are talking about and I will be glad to discuss.



2. <em>Criticizing any ideas to help without giving any creative ideas of his own.</em> Haha, if this statement is directed on the the Obama's worshippers on this board, you are absolutely 100% correct. Noone has given any remote details about what Obama did right on this board. If I miss it, please kindly point it out to me. All I heard is Bush's fault, or stop being a Fox News junkie, Obama is great, give him more time, blah, blah, blah. If you say I did not give any ideas of my own? I think you better read my comments again. I welcome you to contribute your brilliant ideas, I will give you a lot more details if you have some ideas on politics. But I have seen nothing from you yet.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1249598026]

I'm all for lower taxes so long as you can come up with offsets. <snip>

Where was the outrage from 2002-2006?

[/url]</blockquote>


I don't think I was ranting in general back in '06, but feel free to search for debt and my handle in the archives...



<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/894/P75/#16502">Here's a sample from Sept 2007...</a>



[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1190153585]<p><em>Is there no one willing to stand up for what's right in this country anymore?</em></p>

<p>We are a debtor nation. We are a debtor nation with a insolvency problem. We're debtaholics. We are in denial.</p>

<p>The majority want the reckoning delayed as a long as possible, it means a change to their status of living, it will become worse, but worse in ten years or even three years, is better than today. </p>

<p>Just one more hit off of the old credit card and we live in our fantasy world, watching the travel channel's Samantha Brown stay at $1000/night hotels on your 63 inch 1080p LCD we got with the house from Standard Pacific this weekend their take our debt mission possible dreaming of our living the high life as we schlep down to the corner Circle-K for a 40 and some lottery tickets.</p>

<p></bitterness></p>

<p> </p></blockquote>


Lord have mercy, have I been bitter on debt for more than two years?



<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/1170/#23476">Maybe November 2007 was better</a>

[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1194550736]<p>Sorry, we're debt junkies. Debt is as bad as heroin. We aren't stopping into we can't get another fix. </p>

<p>Unlike the Ant and the Grasshopper, it will not matter which you are, for we've given the Grasshoppers the stores we've made on their promise to return it with more, and in the end, we both will starve.</p>

<p> </p></blockquote>




<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/1544/P25/#33895">In January '08 I told you how to balance the budget and pay off the debt.</a>

[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1201718853]<p>If you want "a" fair tax, one that will cause screaming by everybody, drop the income tax and replace it with a national property tax. All titled assets are subject: boats, vehicles, houses, financial instruments (stocks, bonds, etc). Very biblical, would only require 3% to balance the bloated budget and start paying the debt off. Once paid off, the rate could drop to the 2% range.</p>

<p> </p></blockquote>
 
It's seems like a one way street here a lot. But if you ask, I will open the book for you.



[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]

Can you explain to me how a single payor system would take control away from doctors and patients? </blockquote>


So, you think the government and politicians should have the final say about certain patients should go to see certain doctors, get certain tests and take certain medicines? This is what beaurocratic intervention will end up. You are replacing the greedy private insurances beaurocracy to government beaurocracy. How is that going to work? The government cannot even effective manage the Medicare and Medicaid system, what is new that you think our government can run a universal healthcare with success?



[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]A single payor system like they have in Canada does not (I REPEAT NOT) change the way healthcare is DELIVERED -- it changes the way healthcare is PAID FOR. So all these scaremongers who say everything will be rationed and all medical personnel will become government slaves are just trying to distract from a meaningful discussion! </blockquote>


You know why the President didn't use Canada as a model for our healthcare reform? Because he will look like a fool. Access of care is extremely difficlut in Canada. Imagine waiting a month to see a doctor and another month to get xrays and the following month you are diagnosed with terminal cancer? Doctors will be fleeing out of the country because it will take them forever to come out of debt from schools. Please do some research.



[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]So you seem to see it a better model when insurance companies get to say what healthcare we get? But that is what we got now under our current employer based, insurance model.</blockquote>
This is your false assumption. A better model is to put doctors and patients with more freedom to control how they want their healthcare to be delivered, not under the CEOs of Blue Cross.



[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]Ok, now you are just ridiculous when you say the solution is to "Make it more affordable" so that the majority will "pay for it". COME ON! Drrrrr. How is paying insurance companies to create red tape a good idea? How does that contribute to making it more affordable?</blockquote>


You have any idea why people are talking about healthcare reform? Even Mr. Obama know we need to make healthcare more affordable. If people cannot pay for insurances, and don't see their doctors till their blood pressure is over 200 and waiting for a stroke to happen, how can our healthcare cost not going through the roof? There has to be regulations to control cost and promote disease prevention.



[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]Yes, fixing this mess will not be easy. </blockquote>
This is the only statement that is 100% true. Unfortunately, what follows....



[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]Especially when you have people trying to deny the actual options available</blockquote>


Options in pleural? What are they? Please enlighten the audience. Obama's option is just a fantasy that will not work in reality. In addition, Obama has been very vague in details to explain how his plan is the best for the country.



[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]SMART PEOPLE would look to other countries for inspiration. SMART PEOPLE would not make this about politics but what is BEST for the ENTIRE country.</blockquote>
SMART PEOPLE don't look to other countries. What inspirations? We have the best technologies, researchers, medicines, doctors in the world. But why are we not rank at the top for quality of care. We all know the answers. Insurances CEOs, malpractice lawsuits, excessive use of technologies, unethical physicians, lack of supervision by our government all contribute the "wasted" money in the healthcare system. SMART PEOPLE should critisize any proposals and discuss the pros and cons and don't let a radical proposal with many flaws rush into the reality.
 
[quote author="Look4house" date=1249641851]

SMART PEOPLE don't look to other countries. What inspirations? We have the best technologies, researchers, medicines, doctors in the world. But why are we not rank at the top for quality of care. We all know the answers. Insurances CEOs, malpractice lawsuits, excessive use of technologies, unethical physicians, lack of supervision by our government all contribute the "wasted" money in the healthcare system. SMART PEOPLE should critisize any proposals and discuss the pros and cons and don't let a radical proposal with many flaws rush into the reality.</blockquote>


<img src="http://blog.oregonlive.com/environment_impact/2008/12/large_CowPoop.JPG" alt="" />
 
[quote author="Look4house" date=1249641851]

[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]So you seem to see it a better model when insurance companies get to say what healthcare we get? But that is what we got now under our current employer based, insurance model.</blockquote>
This is your false assumption. A better model is to put doctors and patients with more freedom to control how they want their healthcare to be delivered, not under the CEOs of Blue Cross.

</blockquote></blockquote>


How is this achieved then? You are against a government sponsored plan and now against insurance corporations dictating what care you should get. If anything, Medicare approves medical procedures more readily than insurance companies.
 
The problem is the whole idea of insurance. Insurance is supposed to be something that takes care of a problem in the event of something unlikely occurring. This is how they make money, they gamble that the unlikely will not happen and we pay just in case it does. Medical care is not an unlikely event, it's something everyone needs and will continue to need, everyone's house doesn't burn down or is destroyed in an earthquake, everyone doesn't have a car accident, etc... But everyone gets sick, everyone dies. The fact that a for profit business that makes money insuring people for things that ARE going to happen is the problem. Why are we buying something called "insurance" and expecting it to cover things that we know will happen like physicals, routine testing, dental care, etc.. It just doesn't make sense.
 
[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1249638681][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1249598026]

I'm all for lower taxes so long as you can come up with offsets. <snip>

Where was the outrage from 2002-2006?

[/url]</blockquote>


I don't think I was ranting in general back in '06, but feel free to search for debt and my handle in the archives...



<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/894/P75/#16502">Here's a sample from Sept 2007...</a>



[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1190153585]<p><em>Is there no one willing to stand up for what's right in this country anymore?</em></p>

<p>We are a debtor nation. We are a debtor nation with a insolvency problem. We're debtaholics. We are in denial.</p>

<p>The majority want the reckoning delayed as a long as possible, it means a change to their status of living, it will become worse, but worse in ten years or even three years, is better than today. </p>

<p>Just one more hit off of the old credit card and we live in our fantasy world, watching the travel channel's Samantha Brown stay at $1000/night hotels on your 63 inch 1080p LCD we got with the house from Standard Pacific this weekend their take our debt mission possible dreaming of our living the high life as we schlep down to the corner Circle-K for a 40 and some lottery tickets.</p>

<p></bitterness></p>

<p> </p></blockquote>


Lord have mercy, have I been bitter on debt for more than two years?



<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/1170/#23476">Maybe November 2007 was better</a>

[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1194550736]<p>Sorry, we're debt junkies. Debt is as bad as heroin. We aren't stopping into we can't get another fix. </p>

<p>Unlike the Ant and the Grasshopper, it will not matter which you are, for we've given the Grasshoppers the stores we've made on their promise to return it with more, and in the end, we both will starve.</p>

<p> </p></blockquote>




<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/1544/P25/#33895">In January '08 I told you how to balance the budget and pay off the debt.</a>

[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1201718853]<p>If you want "a" fair tax, one that will cause screaming by everybody, drop the income tax and replace it with a national property tax. All titled assets are subject: boats, vehicles, houses, financial instruments (stocks, bonds, etc). Very biblical, would only require 3% to balance the bloated budget and start paying the debt off. Once paid off, the rate could drop to the 2% range.</p>

<p> </p></blockquote></blockquote>


Two points:



1. I think Samantha Brown is sexy as hell. The Travel Channel isn't in HD so I don't watch it other than "No Reservations".

2. I wasn't speaking of your personally, I was speaking of the GOPers.
 
This is an interesting read: <a href="http://commerce.senate.gov/public/_files/PotterTestimonyConsumerHealthInsurance.pdf">Potter Testimony in Congress</a>.



"To help meet Wall Street?s relentless profit expectations, insurers routinely dump policyholders who are less profitable or who get sick. Insurers have several ways to cull the sick from their rolls. One is policy rescission. They look carefully to see if a sick policyholder may have omitted a minor illness, a pre-existing condition, when applying for coverage, and then they use that as justification to cancel the policy, even if the enrollee has never missed a premium payment." [Wendell Potter, former Cigna executive]
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1249644465][quote author="Look4house" date=1249641851]

SMART PEOPLE don't look to other countries. What inspirations? We have the best technologies, researchers, medicines, doctors in the world. But why are we not rank at the top for quality of care. We all know the answers. Insurances CEOs, malpractice lawsuits, excessive use of technologies, unethical physicians, lack of supervision by our government all contribute the "wasted" money in the healthcare system. SMART PEOPLE should critisize any proposals and discuss the pros and cons and don't let a radical proposal with many flaws rush into the reality.</blockquote>


</blockquote>


Please don't feed the troll.
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1249644739][quote author="Look4house" date=1249641851]

[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1249607264]So you seem to see it a better model when insurance companies get to say what healthcare we get? But that is what we got now under our current employer based, insurance model.</blockquote>
This is your false assumption. A better model is to put doctors and patients with more freedom to control how they want their healthcare to be delivered, not under the CEOs of Blue Cross.

</blockquote>


How is this achieved then? You are against a government sponsored plan and now against insurance corporations dictating what care you should get. If anything, Medicare approves medical procedures more readily than insurance companies.</blockquote>


Let me clear up one thing before I move on, Medicare is a government funding system for the eligible. It does not authorize anything. There is no one authorizing anything.



In my opinion, government and insurance corporations cannot be the primary decision makers. Government need to have policies and regulations in place to monitor corporate insurances. I think the HMOs system is the worst thing ever happen in our society and we should get rid of it or strictly under controlled. Independent physicians and public panels should be formed to voice issues and concerns on both sides. Physicians should rely on research studeies and practice experience to determine cost-saving practice guidelines. Incentives should be given to both physicians and patients that follow guidelines to decrease the cost of healthcare. Finally, more manpower should be directed in supervising the running of healthcare to ensure noone is abusing the system.
 
To be honest... until the government can prove that they can be efficient and responsible with my tax dollars... I don't want them messing around with my health.



This goes for WHOEVER is the president... even George Washington.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1249645162]The problem is the whole idea of insurance. Insurance is supposed to be something that takes care of a problem in the event of something unlikely occurring. This is how they make money, they gamble that the unlikely will not happen and we pay just in case it does. Medical care is not an unlikely event, it's something everyone needs and will continue to need, everyone's house doesn't burn down or is destroyed in an earthquake, everyone doesn't have a car accident, etc... But everyone gets sick, everyone dies. The fact that a for profit business that makes money insuring people for things that ARE going to happen is the problem. Why are we buying something called "insurance" and expecting it to cover things that we know will happen like physicals, routine testing, dental care, etc.. It just doesn't make sense.</blockquote>


I see your point. Unfortunately, no one is providing free medical care. And if you need someone to provide you a service, you will have to pay. We are buying insurances because most people cannot afford a $100,000 medical bill if they stay in the hospital for 1 week when you fell and broke your arm and leg. If you don't think you will get sick, it is true that you may be better off just to pay out of pocket for your routine physical exams. Corporations and insurances should allow to make money. They are business. In my opinion, the lack of supervision and regulations lead to the priority of getting a fatter paycheck than the overall health being of the insured.
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1249647528]To be honest... until the government can prove that they can be efficient and responsible with my tax dollars... I don't want them messing around with my health.



This goes for WHOEVER is the president... even George Washington.</blockquote>


Extremely valid.
 
[quote author="Look4house" date=1249647566] Unfortunately, no one is providing free medical care. </blockquote>


<img src="http://jorycaron.angryfilmsproductions.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cowpie.jpg" alt="" />



Been to the ER lately? Nobody gets turned down. And us with insurance are covering that cost with higher premiums.



<a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Bos_taurus_taurus_pooh.jpg/300px-Bos_taurus_taurus_pooh.jpg">Original image posted can be found HERE. You've been warned.</a>
 
[quote author="Look4house" date=1249648364].</blockquote>


I know, you have nothing to add. There are other threads that might interest you. Search for user Marsha.
 
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