Common Core Standards
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Agree. Back in the old days Algebra was all we needed to graduate high school.
But the rationale is because the US is lagging behind in math and science internationally. This is the federal government's way of pushing the envelope. Much like what the space race did to US education during the Cold War.
Algebra 1 star test is suggested for 8th grad or 9th grade.
http://www.iusd.org/education_services/Mathematics.html
At page 5 of the math placement test presentation, there is a suggested math learning sequence.
The main reason to learn Algebra 1 before 9th grade is for AP calculus. The only available AP math are calculus and statistics. If Algebra 1 is not finished before 9th grade, it is impossible to take calculs in IUSD. Then there is no AP math.
Actually one of the goals of common core is to slow down. One of the issues in the older standards was that kids were rushing through levels that they never go their fundamentals down. You learn through formula and memorization but never really understood what you are learning.
http://asiasociety.org/education/learning-world/global-roots-common-core-state-standards
That's really just the result of overachieving parents and kids...you have to take calculus in college as a requirement course if you are a science/math/engineering major.
Also, you are a high achiever, a lot of high schools allow you to take course in local CCs .
I feel like a lot of this handwringing is based up on parental ego.
I really don't think that colleges care that much about whether you take multivariable calculus in high school. I mean, your senior classes don't even matter for purposes college admission.
I really think it's a function of overachieving parents who are pushing their kids.
Colleges care that you are taking a challenging level of course work. The other thing is that if you are not stuck with crazy difficult classes...you can actually have time doing other things that make your application look good.
It's reality. You send out your transcript just when you are starting your senior year. Some colleges ask for your senior transcript after you get accepted just to make sure you're not flunking.
Actually Algebra test IS on an 8th grade STAR test, to the dismay of the students. This started two years ago. Of course the Common Core math test is a whole different ball game. But I'm not allowed to talk about the content of that test. All I can say is I've got a lot of prepping to do to get my own kids to pass those Common Core tests.
You've definitely got the theory down IrvineCommuter. The theory is to slow down and be less dependent on formula and memorization.
However the flipside is the class goes MUCH more in depth on a particular topic. For example, X + Y = Z. Before Common Core, you just learn about X + Y = Z, you don't know why but you just accept it, by memorizing.
In Common Core, you not only need to understand how to calculate X + Y = Z, you need to know WHY we need to calculate like that. It's a double edged sword. For students who just wants to get the concept over-with, now they are stuck and may have even write a short paragraph about WHY X + Y = Z.
In addition, just because you dive deeper it does NOT mean the subjects are slowed down. The rigor is actually increased by pushing MORE topics on a student faster.
So instead of covering 50 lessons in a particular topic, you cover only 20 lessons in that same topic in a deeper and supposedly MORE meaningful way. :
...and also as a social science major (at least at some UCs). Since when calculus became the class for "overachievers"? It is basic math, in my opinion, and not that difficult to grasp. In many countries it is a required class in high school and students don't even question it (let alone complain that it is difficult). But for us, American parents, noooo?too hard, too difficult, too much work? C'mon people, foreign exchange students laugh at our schools, even "advance" classes and so-called "overachieving" students. When are we going to challenge our kids? For comparative purposes, I recommend that you read "The smartest kids in the world" and see how kids study in Korea, Finland and Poland.
BTW, virtually no kid takes calculus at a respectable college as an engineering major?this is like taking an arithmetic class. Engineering majors take courses far beyond calculus at that point. If you are planning to major in engineering and delaying taking calculus until college?how do I put it politely...you are in major trouble.
Who gave this false idea that the top colleges are in the US? ;D There are top colleges in many countries: England, France, Russia, India, Israel, Spain, Korea, China?should I go on? They cost a fraction of what US colleges cost and give the same level and, in many cases, better education than here in the US. If you don't believe me - take a poll of engineering or science graduate students at, say, UCLA or Berkeley - many of them went to an undergrad abroad and now are in US grad schools, well prepared (and on full scholarship).
If you want your kid to get a B.S. in 5-6 years, that is your choice. Why pay for 5 years of college for poorly prepared student if you can pay for 4 years for a well-prepared student? But this is a personal choice, I understand, and I respect that. Calculus is really NOT that difficult! Get a private tutor, he will explain the concepts and your kid will get it.
I am not talking about MIT or Ivies either. Don't know about CSs, but UC admissions are very much looking for high level math courses for freshmen applicants who indicate they want to study engineering. If your kid does not have them, his or her chances of getting in as an engineering major are very slim. Just FYI.
I am not in the minority. Irvine has a cutthroat environment when it comes to kids' college admissions. These days, you have to have 4.5 GPA and tons of APs and interesting extracurriculars to get a chance to get into UCLA (let alone Harvard). It was a lot easier a few years ago to get in. Not anymore.
BTW, colleges know the high school our kids are coming from. The admissions officers are quite aware if certain classes/APs are offered in, say, Northwood High. If the student does not take advantage of the challenging classes, that raises a big negative question.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co....14/subject-ranking/subject/engineering-and-IT
14 of the top 20 are in the US. The top 5 are US.
That's not the only one. Google will tell you that the US dominates in Engineering and IT. Would you rather send your kid to MIT, CalTech or HK University of Science?
You can always go the JC transfer to UC route. I believe it's easier to transfer as a Junior than to get admitted as a Freshman. Cheaper too.
I hope my kid(s) do this so I can come back to this thread and tell everyone that advanced math isn't all that.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Not sure why there is so much focus on math so early.
From what I remember (which is not much any more), you don't need math all that much after (or even during) college depending on your degree/job.
From what I remember (which is not much any more), you don't need math all that much after (or even during) college depending on your degree/job.
ZeroLot
New member
irvinehomeowner said:
Agree. Back in the old days Algebra was all we needed to graduate high school.
But the rationale is because the US is lagging behind in math and science internationally. This is the federal government's way of pushing the envelope. Much like what the space race did to US education during the Cold War.
https://www.ed-data.k12.ca.us/Pages/Understanding-the-STAR.aspxZeroLot said:
Algebra 1 star test is suggested for 8th grad or 9th grade.
http://www.iusd.org/education_services/Mathematics.html
At page 5 of the math placement test presentation, there is a suggested math learning sequence.
The main reason to learn Algebra 1 before 9th grade is for AP calculus. The only available AP math are calculus and statistics. If Algebra 1 is not finished before 9th grade, it is impossible to take calculs in IUSD. Then there is no AP math.
Irvinecommuter
New member
ZeroLot said:
Actually one of the goals of common core is to slow down. One of the issues in the older standards was that kids were rushing through levels that they never go their fundamentals down. You learn through formula and memorization but never really understood what you are learning.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/common-core-compare_n_4102973.html
http://asiasociety.org/education/learning-world/global-roots-common-core-state-standards
Irvinecommuter
New member
deviousflyingtaco said:
That's really just the result of overachieving parents and kids...you have to take calculus in college as a requirement course if you are a science/math/engineering major.
Also, you are a high achiever, a lot of high schools allow you to take course in local CCs .
I feel like a lot of this handwringing is based up on parental ego.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
And we wonder why kids feel so much pressure so early on.
I guess because I'm a 99%er, I don't think all this math education is all that important at such an early age.
The only pro I see is that it gives them more time to learn math but pushing these concepts so early seems to make the middle school experience too... uh... educational.
If we could fit all those math concepts in during high school, I don't see why our kids can't. And there is always time to take these courses in college. I don't think it's going to push you that far behind if you are taking Calc during your Freshman year.
And if CC does set you up in 6th-8th so that you better understand High School math, that's even better.
But again, I'm not Ivy-minded so maybe I see things differently.
I guess because I'm a 99%er, I don't think all this math education is all that important at such an early age.
The only pro I see is that it gives them more time to learn math but pushing these concepts so early seems to make the middle school experience too... uh... educational.
If we could fit all those math concepts in during high school, I don't see why our kids can't. And there is always time to take these courses in college. I don't think it's going to push you that far behind if you are taking Calc during your Freshman year.
And if CC does set you up in 6th-8th so that you better understand High School math, that's even better.
But again, I'm not Ivy-minded so maybe I see things differently.
Irvinecommuter
New member
WasToldToChangeMyName said:
I really don't think that colleges care that much about whether you take multivariable calculus in high school. I mean, your senior classes don't even matter for purposes college admission.
I really think it's a function of overachieving parents who are pushing their kids.
Irvinecommuter
New member
WasToldToChangeMyName said:
Colleges care that you are taking a challenging level of course work. The other thing is that if you are not stuck with crazy difficult classes...you can actually have time doing other things that make your application look good.
It's reality. You send out your transcript just when you are starting your senior year. Some colleges ask for your senior transcript after you get accepted just to make sure you're not flunking.
ZeroLot
New member
kiki said:
Actually Algebra test IS on an 8th grade STAR test, to the dismay of the students. This started two years ago. Of course the Common Core math test is a whole different ball game. But I'm not allowed to talk about the content of that test. All I can say is I've got a lot of prepping to do to get my own kids to pass those Common Core tests.
ZeroLot
New member
Irvinecommuter said:
You've definitely got the theory down IrvineCommuter. The theory is to slow down and be less dependent on formula and memorization.
However the flipside is the class goes MUCH more in depth on a particular topic. For example, X + Y = Z. Before Common Core, you just learn about X + Y = Z, you don't know why but you just accept it, by memorizing.
In Common Core, you not only need to understand how to calculate X + Y = Z, you need to know WHY we need to calculate like that. It's a double edged sword. For students who just wants to get the concept over-with, now they are stuck and may have even write a short paragraph about WHY X + Y = Z.
In addition, just because you dive deeper it does NOT mean the subjects are slowed down. The rigor is actually increased by pushing MORE topics on a student faster.
So instead of covering 50 lessons in a particular topic, you cover only 20 lessons in that same topic in a deeper and supposedly MORE meaningful way. :
Irvinecommuter said:
...and also as a social science major (at least at some UCs). Since when calculus became the class for "overachievers"? It is basic math, in my opinion, and not that difficult to grasp. In many countries it is a required class in high school and students don't even question it (let alone complain that it is difficult). But for us, American parents, noooo?too hard, too difficult, too much work? C'mon people, foreign exchange students laugh at our schools, even "advance" classes and so-called "overachieving" students. When are we going to challenge our kids? For comparative purposes, I recommend that you read "The smartest kids in the world" and see how kids study in Korea, Finland and Poland.
BTW, virtually no kid takes calculus at a respectable college as an engineering major?this is like taking an arithmetic class. Engineering majors take courses far beyond calculus at that point. If you are planning to major in engineering and delaying taking calculus until college?how do I put it politely...you are in major trouble.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
if American education is so lacking in quality, why are the top colleges (and specifically engineering) in the US?
Maybe college has changed since I was last there but even for engineering majors, your first 1 or 2 years is general ed, you don't take advanced mathematics until Sophomore+. Sure you can be a super student and start taking them earlier but there are prerequisites that require you have also taken other tracks before you can even get into higher level math. And since many higher tech degrees have been stretched out to 5 years, there is still enough "time" to fit in "high school math" if you didn't get to it.
But again, I'm not talking about MIT, just about normal colleges like UC or CS. If you are planning to send your kid to an Ivy, higher math is probably an issue for you but you are in the minority and not who Common Core is speaking to.
Maybe college has changed since I was last there but even for engineering majors, your first 1 or 2 years is general ed, you don't take advanced mathematics until Sophomore+. Sure you can be a super student and start taking them earlier but there are prerequisites that require you have also taken other tracks before you can even get into higher level math. And since many higher tech degrees have been stretched out to 5 years, there is still enough "time" to fit in "high school math" if you didn't get to it.
But again, I'm not talking about MIT, just about normal colleges like UC or CS. If you are planning to send your kid to an Ivy, higher math is probably an issue for you but you are in the minority and not who Common Core is speaking to.
irvinehomeowner said:
Who gave this false idea that the top colleges are in the US? ;D There are top colleges in many countries: England, France, Russia, India, Israel, Spain, Korea, China?should I go on? They cost a fraction of what US colleges cost and give the same level and, in many cases, better education than here in the US. If you don't believe me - take a poll of engineering or science graduate students at, say, UCLA or Berkeley - many of them went to an undergrad abroad and now are in US grad schools, well prepared (and on full scholarship).
If you want your kid to get a B.S. in 5-6 years, that is your choice. Why pay for 5 years of college for poorly prepared student if you can pay for 4 years for a well-prepared student? But this is a personal choice, I understand, and I respect that. Calculus is really NOT that difficult! Get a private tutor, he will explain the concepts and your kid will get it.
I am not talking about MIT or Ivies either. Don't know about CSs, but UC admissions are very much looking for high level math courses for freshmen applicants who indicate they want to study engineering. If your kid does not have them, his or her chances of getting in as an engineering major are very slim. Just FYI.
I am not in the minority. Irvine has a cutthroat environment when it comes to kids' college admissions. These days, you have to have 4.5 GPA and tons of APs and interesting extracurriculars to get a chance to get into UCLA (let alone Harvard). It was a lot easier a few years ago to get in. Not anymore.
BTW, colleges know the high school our kids are coming from. The admissions officers are quite aware if certain classes/APs are offered in, say, Northwood High. If the student does not take advantage of the challenging classes, that raises a big negative question.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Veronica:
1) The top universities are in the US by just about any measure. Most countries have one or two excellent university. The US has many many excellent universities and dominate the top 100/top 500 rankings.
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2013.html
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking
2) I got two degrees in four years and took calculus in my senior year. I retook calculus in college like 1000 other people in my class, who were all shooting to be doctors.
3) Obviously, if you are going to try for engineering schools, math proficiency is going to be an important element. For those students, you can still take high level math in HS and in local CCs. But that applies to like 5% of the student population.
4) Grades and SAT scores are important...no one is saying that they are not. Of course you have to take a challenging level of coursework. But I don't think that you taking regular calculus in your senior year rather than multivariable calculus is going to gets you knocked off the list.
1) The top universities are in the US by just about any measure. Most countries have one or two excellent university. The US has many many excellent universities and dominate the top 100/top 500 rankings.
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2013.html
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking
2) I got two degrees in four years and took calculus in my senior year. I retook calculus in college like 1000 other people in my class, who were all shooting to be doctors.
3) Obviously, if you are going to try for engineering schools, math proficiency is going to be an important element. For those students, you can still take high level math in HS and in local CCs. But that applies to like 5% of the student population.
4) Grades and SAT scores are important...no one is saying that they are not. Of course you have to take a challenging level of coursework. But I don't think that you taking regular calculus in your senior year rather than multivariable calculus is going to gets you knocked off the list.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
So you're calling this list a "false idea"?Veronica said:
http://www.timeshighereducation.co....14/subject-ranking/subject/engineering-and-IT
14 of the top 20 are in the US. The top 5 are US.
That's not the only one. Google will tell you that the US dominates in Engineering and IT. Would you rather send your kid to MIT, CalTech or HK University of Science?
Or I can pay for 2 years in a JC and only have to pay for 2-3 years in a university.
Doesn't seem like you *really* do.
That's not my point. My point is if you don't get to Calculus in high school, that doesn't mean you won't be able to pursue a tech degree in college.
Maybe so. Like I said, college admissions may have changed from my day.
Eh... still not end of the world.
You can always go the JC transfer to UC route. I believe it's easier to transfer as a Junior than to get admitted as a Freshman. Cheaper too.
I hope my kid(s) do this so I can come back to this thread and tell everyone that advanced math isn't all that.
