yet again the flakes, bumms, looser and lazy ones are beeing rewarded !
- Thread starter flmgrip_IHB
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"However, I dare you to look at any of the public worker unions whether fireman, cops, teachers, prison guards, or plain old state, county or city workers and miss the bereaucracy and waste."
Medicare and the VA(vet admin) run much more efficiently (at least in terms of administrative cost) compared to their private counterparts. There are many social service programs that run on a shoestring that do incredible work. There are many examples of waste and excesses in the private sector too, with subprime loan crisis being a good example.
The issue of fairness in taxation may be impossible to settle. However, I think most would agree that progressive taxation benefits more people, although it may be at the expense of the few.
Medicare and the VA(vet admin) run much more efficiently (at least in terms of administrative cost) compared to their private counterparts. There are many social service programs that run on a shoestring that do incredible work. There are many examples of waste and excesses in the private sector too, with subprime loan crisis being a good example.
The issue of fairness in taxation may be impossible to settle. However, I think most would agree that progressive taxation benefits more people, although it may be at the expense of the few.
green_cactus_IHB
New member
NSR,
FYI, the salary gap for college educated women is about 75/100 (your 66/100 number is old). Claiming that this gap does not exist or that it is an error due to badly performed studies is pure denial. I'm not arguing that one is a biggot for not wanting to see these numbers or dismissing them. But you should not be so fast at dismissing them either.
Also, don't forget that women were the last minority allowed to vote.
FYI, the salary gap for college educated women is about 75/100 (your 66/100 number is old). Claiming that this gap does not exist or that it is an error due to badly performed studies is pure denial. I'm not arguing that one is a biggot for not wanting to see these numbers or dismissing them. But you should not be so fast at dismissing them either.
Also, don't forget that women were the last minority allowed to vote.
mino2126_IHB
New member
Green Cactus,
I am not refuting your numbers but aren't they alittle subjective? From my knowledge most women do not go into the higher paying fields. For instance, I went to a very big University that was in the top of all engineering fields and you rarely saw women in any of these fields other than Industrial Engineering. Most women were working on degrees in nursing, education, or some other type of "nontechnical" field.
Now if that number is for women entering the same position, in the same region, with the same education I would give those numbers more serious consideration.
I am not refuting your numbers but aren't they alittle subjective? From my knowledge most women do not go into the higher paying fields. For instance, I went to a very big University that was in the top of all engineering fields and you rarely saw women in any of these fields other than Industrial Engineering. Most women were working on degrees in nursing, education, or some other type of "nontechnical" field.
Now if that number is for women entering the same position, in the same region, with the same education I would give those numbers more serious consideration.
effenheimer_IHB
New member
It's childbirth. Women are usually the ones interrupting their careers to raise family. They are choosing to put their careers on hold and career impairment is often the end-result. The gap closes tremendously when you compare childless women to men.
green_cactus_IHB
New member
It's not childbirth. They control for experience and time off. The gap in pay barely moves for childless women with the same experience as "childfull" women.
It's not that they end up in lower paying jobs. They control for that, too. In lower paying jobs they make less, in higher paying jobs the gap is even bigger.
It's because they are women.
It's not that they end up in lower paying jobs. They control for that, too. In lower paying jobs they make less, in higher paying jobs the gap is even bigger.
It's because they are women.
Adam_IHB
New member
<p>green_cactus,</p>
<p>Please provide facts to support your position. From what I've read, men earn more because they deserve to. Nobody is saying it has to be this way, but that is how it is--at least for now. Let me ask you, in a "free market" capitalistic society why would a company hire even one man if they could lower their costs by hiring just women for less compensation and performing the same function? Do you honestly believe that if a woman and myself were to get hired at a drive thru window at McDonalds, that I would be compensated more simply because I am male?</p>
<p>Please feel free to read <em>Why Men Earn More</em>:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-More-Startling/dp/0814472109">http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-More-Startling/dp/0814472109</a></p>
<p>I fully support equal opportunity employment however few women are taking advantage of it and lining up to work on crab fishing boats like Discovery's Deadliest Catch. I would love to see it, but it just isn't happening.</p>
<p>You may particularly enjoy the chapter on "Genetic Celebrity" where the 75/100 statistic fails to capture the amount women gain from the poor saps stupid enough to shower women with free dinners, gifts, home repairs, tire changes, etc... Call it what you will, but this is income and is unaccounted for.</p>
<p>P.S. You may also be interested in reading <em>The Myth of Male Power</em>: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=sip_rech_dp_4">http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=sip_rech_dp_4</a></p>
<p>Please provide facts to support your position. From what I've read, men earn more because they deserve to. Nobody is saying it has to be this way, but that is how it is--at least for now. Let me ask you, in a "free market" capitalistic society why would a company hire even one man if they could lower their costs by hiring just women for less compensation and performing the same function? Do you honestly believe that if a woman and myself were to get hired at a drive thru window at McDonalds, that I would be compensated more simply because I am male?</p>
<p>Please feel free to read <em>Why Men Earn More</em>:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-More-Startling/dp/0814472109">http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-More-Startling/dp/0814472109</a></p>
<p>I fully support equal opportunity employment however few women are taking advantage of it and lining up to work on crab fishing boats like Discovery's Deadliest Catch. I would love to see it, but it just isn't happening.</p>
<p>You may particularly enjoy the chapter on "Genetic Celebrity" where the 75/100 statistic fails to capture the amount women gain from the poor saps stupid enough to shower women with free dinners, gifts, home repairs, tire changes, etc... Call it what you will, but this is income and is unaccounted for.</p>
<p>P.S. You may also be interested in reading <em>The Myth of Male Power</em>: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=sip_rech_dp_4">http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=sip_rech_dp_4</a></p>
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
<p>post your studies Green. They'll fall apart. </p>
<p> <em>what if you took Troopers advice and pretended that you were gay...</em></p>
<p>I'd still rather buy from a hottie. </p>
<p>What's a hottie depends on your preference. </p>
<p> <em>what if you took Troopers advice and pretended that you were gay...</em></p>
<p>I'd still rather buy from a hottie. </p>
<p>What's a hottie depends on your preference. </p>
green_cactus_IHB
New member
I didn't do the studies so I will not claim to know all the nuances about them - you can search any database and get more than you'll probably care to read. At the same time, there are many people trying to debunk these studies - same as people trying to debunk proven science. In any case, it seems that I'm trying to convince some Ayn Rand fans out here that male heroism is not something that should be celebrated. Rather, it's an aberration of our society that has a preference for male dominance.
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
<p>Post them.</p>
<p>Otherwise, dropped the heresey. </p>
<p>You claimed it as fact. Put up the facts for review.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Otherwise, dropped the heresey. </p>
<p>You claimed it as fact. Put up the facts for review.</p>
<p> </p>
Anonymous_IHB
New member
<p>Getting back on topic...</p>
<p><a href="http://www.housingwire.com/2008/02/06/bank-ceo-calls-for-explicit-federal-guarantee-of-principal-on-troubled-subprime-mortgages/">Bank CEO Calls for Federal Guarantee on Troubled Subprime Mortgages</a></p>
<p>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/opinion/06milstein.html</p>
<p><a href="http://www.housingwire.com/2008/02/06/bank-ceo-calls-for-explicit-federal-guarantee-of-principal-on-troubled-subprime-mortgages/">Bank CEO Calls for Federal Guarantee on Troubled Subprime Mortgages</a></p>
<p>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/opinion/06milstein.html</p>
green_cactus_IHB
New member
One source:
Abstract:
We assemble a new matched employer-employee data set covering essentially all industries and occupations across all regions of the U.S. We use this data set to re-examine the question of the relative contributions to the overall sex gap in wages of sex segregation vs. wage differences by sex within occupation, industry, establishment, and occupation-establishment cells. This new data set is especially useful because earlier research on this topic relied on data sets that covered only a narrow range of industries, occupations, or regions. <em><u>Our results indicate that a sizable fraction of the sex gap in wages is accounted for by the segregation of women into lower-paying occupations, industries, establishments, and occupations within establishments. </u><u><strong>Nonetheless, a substantial part of the sex gap in wages remains attributable to the individual's sex</strong></u></em>. This latter finding contrasts sharply with the conclusions of previous research (especially Groshen, 1991), which indicated that sex segregation accounted for essentially all of the sex wage gap. Further research into the sources of within-establishment within-occupation sex wage differences is therefore much more important than previously thought.
<a href="http://ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/98-18.html">ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/98-18.html</a>
Abstract:
We assemble a new matched employer-employee data set covering essentially all industries and occupations across all regions of the U.S. We use this data set to re-examine the question of the relative contributions to the overall sex gap in wages of sex segregation vs. wage differences by sex within occupation, industry, establishment, and occupation-establishment cells. This new data set is especially useful because earlier research on this topic relied on data sets that covered only a narrow range of industries, occupations, or regions. <em><u>Our results indicate that a sizable fraction of the sex gap in wages is accounted for by the segregation of women into lower-paying occupations, industries, establishments, and occupations within establishments. </u><u><strong>Nonetheless, a substantial part of the sex gap in wages remains attributable to the individual's sex</strong></u></em>. This latter finding contrasts sharply with the conclusions of previous research (especially Groshen, 1991), which indicated that sex segregation accounted for essentially all of the sex wage gap. Further research into the sources of within-establishment within-occupation sex wage differences is therefore much more important than previously thought.
<a href="http://ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/98-18.html">ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/98-18.html</a>
Trooper_IHB
New member
<p><em>I fully support equal opportunity employment however few women are taking advantage of it and lining up to work on crab fishing boats like Discovery's Deadliest Catch. I would love to see it, but it just isn't happening.</em></p>
<p>Adam, just about 25% of LAPD sworn is now female. I'd akin this job to crab fishing as far as danger goes, worse actually. We get paid equally depending on the rank that we have earned. I'm happy to say that I feel as if I have a fair shake at any job, even though I am a woman. The crab fishing boat contains numerous other variables...it's not that the women don't want the pay, but consider the environment. One or two women on a boatful of "colorful" characters....I imagine the harassment alone would be enough to keep me away. Even with strict controls in place, harassment readily occurs in some workplaces. </p>
<p>Adam, just about 25% of LAPD sworn is now female. I'd akin this job to crab fishing as far as danger goes, worse actually. We get paid equally depending on the rank that we have earned. I'm happy to say that I feel as if I have a fair shake at any job, even though I am a woman. The crab fishing boat contains numerous other variables...it's not that the women don't want the pay, but consider the environment. One or two women on a boatful of "colorful" characters....I imagine the harassment alone would be enough to keep me away. Even with strict controls in place, harassment readily occurs in some workplaces. </p>
green_cactus_IHB
New member
Isn't LAPD unionized? That might have something to do with it.
green_cactus_IHB
New member
Tropper,
Random question for you. Are patrol cars allowed to break traffic rules when not responding to an emergency? Like making an illegal U-turn to shortcut to a donut shop ...
Random question for you. Are patrol cars allowed to break traffic rules when not responding to an emergency? Like making an illegal U-turn to shortcut to a donut shop ...
Trooper_IHB
New member
<p>Green, yes, we are unionized. This is a positive thing when bargaining for our pay and benefits, but has nothing to do with affirmative action. Lawsuits do. Educated upper management does. The fact that this is 2008. etc.</p>
<p>and I'm pleading the 5th on your second question. </p>
<p>p.s. It's not for the donuts, it's for the coffee.</p>
<p>and I'm pleading the 5th on your second question. </p>
<p>p.s. It's not for the donuts, it's for the coffee.</p>
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
<p>Green, your reference is to a pay for the article site. The Troske, Bayard, Hellerstein and Neumarkarticle is available directly from Census Center for Economic Studies here. <a href="http://www.ces.census.gov/index.php/ces/cespapers?detail_key=101591">http://www.ces.census.gov/index.php/ces/cespapers?detail_key=101591</a></p>
<p>Refer to Table II, page 50 and you'll note they are again comparing aggregates and failing to control for years of active service.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Refer to Table II, page 50 and you'll note they are again comparing aggregates and failing to control for years of active service.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
Adam_IHB
New member
<p>Trooper,</p>
<p>We're in agreement on this because harrassment and discrimination are clear barriers which can make any job unbearable and not just for women, but also for men. However, with drive and determination these barriers can be side-stepped or overcome regardless of gender. We know this because there are examples of such in our society today. Afterall, what would stop an entire female crew from going out and hauling in some crab?</p>
<p>Also, thanks for your evidence of equal pay for equal rank.</p>
<p>We're in agreement on this because harrassment and discrimination are clear barriers which can make any job unbearable and not just for women, but also for men. However, with drive and determination these barriers can be side-stepped or overcome regardless of gender. We know this because there are examples of such in our society today. Afterall, what would stop an entire female crew from going out and hauling in some crab?</p>
<p>Also, thanks for your evidence of equal pay for equal rank.</p>
green_cactus_IHB
New member
They do control for within job-cell / within establishment. If you just want to look for "years of active service" you find such a label. However, it doesn't mean that the study did not control for that.
lawyerliz_IHB
New member
<p>I think that the INSTANT women stopped fighting for their gains, the gains would be lost.</p>
<p>Men resist women enter their professions in each and every case.</p>
<p>120 years ago, bank tellers and secretaries were virtually all men, and they were reasonably well compensated. I regret to say that when women enter a profession in any large numbers, all too often the salaries go down.</p>
<p>When I graduated law school in 76, there were very few women lawyers. I was talking about hiring prospects with 2 other women. One was single. They didn't want her because she might get married and have kids and not want to be a law slave anymore. There was a woman in her 40s, married to a doc, kids grown. Didn't want her because she didn't have a fire in the belly. They didn't want me, ,married with one kid at that time, because I might have to take off because the kid got sick.</p>
<p>Yes, I know that things have changed, for now. But the minute the new generation of girls decide that they don't have to fight anymore, all gains will be lost.</p>
<p>In the late 70s and early 80s, I was an "honorary guy" and got to hear what the guys really felt about women, because I didn't react, and wanted to hear what they had to say. It wasn't pretty.</p>
<p>Men resist women enter their professions in each and every case.</p>
<p>120 years ago, bank tellers and secretaries were virtually all men, and they were reasonably well compensated. I regret to say that when women enter a profession in any large numbers, all too often the salaries go down.</p>
<p>When I graduated law school in 76, there were very few women lawyers. I was talking about hiring prospects with 2 other women. One was single. They didn't want her because she might get married and have kids and not want to be a law slave anymore. There was a woman in her 40s, married to a doc, kids grown. Didn't want her because she didn't have a fire in the belly. They didn't want me, ,married with one kid at that time, because I might have to take off because the kid got sick.</p>
<p>Yes, I know that things have changed, for now. But the minute the new generation of girls decide that they don't have to fight anymore, all gains will be lost.</p>
<p>In the late 70s and early 80s, I was an "honorary guy" and got to hear what the guys really felt about women, because I didn't react, and wanted to hear what they had to say. It wasn't pretty.</p>