yet again the flakes, bumms, looser and lazy ones are beeing rewarded !

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
I'm glad my original post didn't make it on here. . . I lost internet connection.





The jist: "It's cultural" does not apply very much to attractiveness-- physically at least. Across cultures, across time there are some robust universals that apply:





.7 waist to hip ratio as an ideal for women


symmetry in faces (which is more important to women looking at male faces)


straight men are attracted to women with big, doey eyes (and gays want guys with doey eyes)





Evolutionary Psychology is fascinating (and maddening to social constructivist/relativists) because it shows how much these drives are really driving us. It is not an excuse for bad behavior, like many like to believe.





Great Study: They showed a male and a female group opposite sex pictures and had them rate the attractiveness of the people in the pictures. Many of the models in the pictures were the same, but with different clothing in the different frames. Women rated the same man in a business suit as more attractive than when he was wearing the McDonald's uniform. For men? They didn't care what the woman was wearing-- no difference. Sorry ladies. . . consider that on your next triple digit clothing purchase charge.





BTW though: In a long list of important traits that men and women look for #1 and #2 for both men and women are Kindness and Understanding. So physical isn't 1st for men. . . but it is 3rd! There's a little hope for the ladies.





When female friends start the process of asking "why" with regards to guys and they tell me about is this outfit better than that, etc, all I can think (and sometimes say) is that whatever alternatives you give me, "lose 5 lbs" will trump clothing/make-up ensemble you creatively come up with.





My original post was hardly this tactful.
 
<p>That's what men say. But trust me, that's not what men act like.</p>

<p>And there have been certain outfits I've owned that had a zazing effect. They weren't necessarily pricey. </p>

<p>Do you need to lose 5 pounds soul brother?</p>
 
Haha Liz-- I could probably stand gain 5. . . if it were muscle. Although that matters less for me as a guy.





As far as clothing goes-- consider that: those were pictures, not live people that were being rated. Maybe you are more confident and strutting wearing your favorite outfit-- and confidence helps, I would argue-- no studies to site on that though. Potential interactive effect with the clothing, good point.





I agree with the resources though. If a man can show that he has them, and it's going to be good times for him! Although, it is so much easier for man to buy a good looking suit or a fake rolex, or even fake ferrari than it for a woman to buy fake not-being-fat. Fake other stuff for women, yeah that's available.





My main point was to show that there are some objective robust points to attractiveness, and that it's hardly all a cultural thing.
 
<p><em>"They didn't care what the woman was wearing-- no difference. Sorry ladies. . . consider that on your next triple digit clothing purchase charge."</em></p>

<p>They dress/accessorize to impress <em>each other</em>. No [straight] man notices Coach. Players excepted (they need to know their mark). </p>
 
<p>Surprise, surprise, women also have a pecking order. When you guys stop beating yourselves on the chest to prove you are the biggest gorilla, you can point out to us, how to correct this defect.</p>

<p>I'm sorry, I just don't believe it when you say the men would react to a hottie in a bikini, vs one dressed in a power suit or a nun's habit in the exact same way. No knowledge of Coach is necessary.</p>
 
Eh, it's not about nun's habit versus bikini... I'm talking about looking like something from the front cover of a Speigel catalog versus wearing something a little less flashy. Women wonder why they get so much more male attention while wearing sweats or jeans versus when they're dressed to the nines. I have a pretty good idea why.
 
Haha, yeah, women definitely compete among themselves. What's odd is how counterproductive it is. They try to sabotage each other sometimes in the face of guys, and it only does harm to themselves it seems. But, all people buy into the illusion of control. . . it's not just true in the case of attractiveness within the context of competition. Or with women, to be fair.





Yeah Eff, I'm with you on the dressing down. That says "non-gold-digger" better than anything!





Liz, I don't know about "reacting"-- but rated attractiveness to pictures of women wearing different clothes-- makes no difference to men. You can extrapolate that in many valid and not valid directions, I'm sure.
 
I don't mind if women want to look pretty, and I doubt most men would object either. But my gawd, if I invite a lady friend for a weekend morning leisure hike on Quail Hill's trail, and she shows up wearing heels ("these are your hiking shoes?!"), it gets a bit too much. Once I asked a GF to a picnic at Yorba Regional Park, and she came wearing high heels. >_< Yes I know I'm a head taller, but this isn't a photo session.





On side note, if anyone actually hike that trail, avoid the paved road area up & over the hill, where the Irvine Ranch Water District equipment are. There's a lot of in-ground equipment where the compartments have been taken over by bee's, and they will aggressively attack you if you get too close to the nest. Just stay on the dirt trail up to the farm and you should be fine.
 
<p>Sweats easier to take off?</p>

<p>Many fewer girls than guys really like camping and hiking. If that's your thing find one that does. Maybe she was envisioning something more like a stroll thru a paved area in a park. Or a mall. You think ahead and mention sneakers or boots.</p>

<p>I wouldn't mind walking the Appalachian trail--but only if there was a nice motel at the end of the day waiting for me, which some kind or highly paid person had taken my stuff to and all I had to carry was the day's food.</p>

<p>Luckily, the hub really doesn't like the idea of sleeping in a tent, so this is a non-issue for us.</p>
 
<p>Of course, if you live in the OC, dressing <em>down </em>means these <strong>$250</strong> sweats from <strong><em>Juicy</em></strong>:</p>

<p><a class="prodLinks" href="javascript:popUp('/store/catalog/productImagesPopup.jhtml?selected=mg&item=prod51920062&pageProductId=prod51920062&yB=mg_prod51920062',570,565,'yes');"><img title="NMOF8_-1FD6" alt="Juicy Couture Empire-Waist Velour Hoodie & Wide-Leg Pants" onerror="shimImage(this)" width="216" border="0" name="mainImage" src="http://www.neimanmarcus.com/products/mn/NM-1FD6_mn.jpg" /></a></p>
 
Cute, but they look exactly like $25.00 sweats to me. Are they made of silk and cashmere? Or, maybe it's the hood! 225 extra bucks for the hood!!
 
[Well, I wasn’t going to continue with this thread, but I just happened upon this fantastically written article]







irvinesinglemom, no offense taken, but please do not get me wrong because I am fully aware of how much we as straight men place value a woman’s physical beauty. My groin consistently reminds me of this concept approximately every thirty seconds. Okay, but seriously, here is my two points of contention:



1. The conversation evolved towards the topic of gender equality and I jumped in before the male bashing could begin to take hold. If anything was naïve, it was my pondering of how we could advance women’s status/rights/issues without the whole “Men are evil” mantra. I certainly cannot claim to have the answers.



2. Could we agree that time spent primping is a non-linear relationship with respect to enhanced beauty? Because if this is not the case, then I would argue these girls ought to forgo high school and begin non-stop primping.



I contend, however, the effectiveness of primping diminishes at some point on a curve that’s unique for each individual. Would it make sense to instill values such that when a young woman nears the sweet spot where enhancing beauty becomes less productive than pursuing other areas of interest, we ought to encourage this type of behavior?



Unlike you, irvinesinglemom, as someone who continues to do their best to maximize both their beauty and brain capacity, the majority of your sisters seem content with reading gossip magazines, talking trash at Starbucks, and shopping hours on end to find an additional piece to add to their already “closet busting” wardrobe. Here’s an extreme example, but I don’t exactly have to bend over backwards to find a female with this mind set:

<img alt="" src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/Centrifuge2/wah.jpg" />



No one suggests women should stop primping, but young ladies like Ms. Stauss here need to spend some time to become the most knowledgeable, self-sufficient, strongest woman they can be and I think this will help close the gap of gender equality.



So, right or wrong, I’m just regurgitating some thoughts I had recently about this topic. I know for sure I would like to have some great conversations with women I would also like to bang, but it seems more often than not the hotter a woman is the less likely she’ll have a brain and/or personality.



Oops, check that! I've just come to the conclusion how bad this idea is because if more women who were considered 9’s and 10’s also had brains and high self-esteem, it would upset the delicate balance we know and men would have zero bargaining chips.




 
<p>In the meantime, we'll continue to feign interest:</p>

<p><embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vRRotGoKK2o" width="425" height="350" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" quality="high" wmode="transparent"></embed></p>

<p>Unfortunately YouTube only has the creepy ending version, but supposedly there's a cleaner version on his website.</p>
 
I can't determine if the article above is brilliant satire or the most ignorant, typically-Orange County crap I have read in a while. The fact that I cannot tell makes me think it is the former.
 
<p>Wince. Wince.</p>

<p>This girl is going to have a terrible comeupance when her looks fail. What happens when she had a kid and has to take care of it? Or she gets stretch marks?</p>

<p>Just to drag this thread even further off track, male chimps like older female chimps, even if their ears are torn and pelt raggedy, presumably because nature tells them the older females are better mothers. Just the reverse of humans. Also lady chimps can fool around with anybody and everybody and nobody thinks of them as sluts. On the other hand, that means sneakiness isn't so much built in. Tho I understand chimps can be pretty sneaky.</p>

<p>I think all this (human) awfulness is because women go into menopause. Chimps don't.</p>
 
Those chimps just like MILFs, good times for them.





I don't know about the huMAN awfulness being related to menopause. Sexual traits and preferences evolve clearly from selective mating dynamics-- when our ancestors evolved, none of them survived within 25 years of menopause anyway, so it's not something that really works into the plan.





Species to species comparison is useful, but even in comparing humans to primates there is amazing diversity of mating (the spectrum of monogamy to polygamy and polyandry) and parental/community investment, so the comparisons are not going to correspond necessarily.
 
<p>If the old lady chimp is still fertile, then she's still attractive. I'm not so sure that we can say how old humans were when they croaked 40,000 years ago, much less proto humans many more years ago than that. I understand our fossils are not particularly robust. Have enough of them been found that we have enuf of a distribution of individuals who died at different ages. And, are we good enough to know if the individual was 30 or 40 or 50?</p>

<p>The same article I read about the lucky old lady chimps said that they lasted until 45-50. Don't know what would apply in the wild without humans mucking things up.</p>
 
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