When is the best time to buy??????????

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[quote author="ipoplaya" date=1222750020]Not having the property tax deduction could create AMT liability vs. traditional calculation, so AMT can negate the favorably tax consequences of ownership with regards to property tax. </blockquote>


This is what I'm trying to say. Most people who can afford a median priced Irvine home have incomes that already subject them to AMT, thus negating the tax benefit.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222757768][quote author="ipoplaya" date=1222750020]Not having the property tax deduction could create AMT liability vs. traditional calculation, so AMT can negate the favorably tax consequences of ownership with regards to property tax. </blockquote>


This is what I'm trying to say. Most people who can afford a median priced Irvine home have incomes that already subject them to AMT, thus negating the tax benefit.</blockquote>


Indeed. It doesn't take much for a double-income family to hit the non-adjusted/old/current for 2008 AMT number... The fixes the past couple of years has really helped out. Need that again this year!
 
[quote author="columbussquare.com" date=1222756599][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1222746363]There is a good time to buy: when it is cheaper than renting. Other than that, you are speculating on appreciation and most likely going to lose your money. Just watch.</blockquote>


If that's your benchmark then it will be rare for you to find a buying opportunity in the OC. Try South Carolina or Missouri. Demand exceeds supply. Demand is not just from renters but also investors, high net-worth individuals, people who know that ownership is a hedge against increasing housing costs, etc. Value in housing is based on perception of value and the recent transactions that represent that.</blockquote>


high net-worth individuals who invest assuming "increasing housing costs" in the OC will become low net-worth individuals
 
[quote author="WestparkRenter" date=1222727471][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222686120][quote author="flmgrip" date=1222684592][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222653474][quote author="columbussquare.com" date=1222649472][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222642583]Can I get a conventional 30 year fixed on $385K for $1750 a month, including impounding taxes, with $2000 down? Thought so. When I can rent an equivlent property for half what I can buy it for, either my rents are going to skyrocket, or prices are coming down. This much imbalance between rents and ownership costs can't exist. I'm not laying my money on rents skyrocketing.</blockquote>


Assuming that you could get 100% financing (which is becoming less likely these days) I would estimate the monthly cost for principle, interest, insurance, and taxes on a $385k home to be $2,887. So it would have a monthly difference in cost of $1,137. But that isn't accurate since the renter is paying for housing with after-tax dollars. My guess is that renting would costs more than $2,000/mo in this scenario. The current system doesn't allow you to keep the money, it has to either go to the bank or the government. With the government there is very little upside potential on a personal level. [/i]</blockquote>


My brother and his wife purchased a home last year. The addition of the "RE income tax deduction" pushed them over the AMT cap, because your personal deductions (personal exemptions and those for for dependents, state income tax, property tax, and your mortgage interest) are considered "tax shelters". Too many individuals find this out the hard way because they don't do adaquate tax planning. My wife and I are in similar circumstances. If we were to buy a home, the tax advantage would be negative compared to renting unless prices fall off another 40% or more. If we were in Nevada it would be different, but we're in California and we have the highest effective state taxes in the nation.



Every year, AMT renders the standard "Real Estate has Tax Advantages" advice more and more obsolete. Banks will soon reflect this reality and factor thier debt/income ratios (especially in California), allowing less leverage than what they've taken in the past, further depressing house prices.



But I wouldn't expect you to know that because you sell houses and aren't a EA or a CPA.</blockquote>


this statement is just plain wrong. property tax will work in yout favor for AMT, not against it</blockquote>


No, it won't. AMT considers your property tax and mortgage interest expense a "tax shelter".



I know of someone who lives in Bakersfield, makes $38K a year as a waitress, is a single mother of one, and owns a pretty plain condo - who is subject to AMT because they consider her personal exemption, her exemption for her daughter, her property tax exemption, her mortgage exemption, and her California state income tax exemption as a "tax shelter". As you ratchet your incomes up, it gets worse. Nobody cares about AMT untill you get clipped by it. I have been paying my CPA to effectively calculate two returns since 2003 for exactly this reason. I have been able to take some steps to minimize my AMT exposure. If I buy a property it all goes out the window because I am under the AMT caps by the narrowest of margins.



What the columbussquare person wrote USED TO be correct, but isn't anymore, especially in SoCal where incomes and property values are higher than BFE Plano or Bakersfield. Over the past five years, it started to become "well sometimes" and then "more often" and without Congresional action (which isn't coming in light of the deficts we have committed ourselves to over the past 7 1/2 years) will become "totally standard".</blockquote>


I have been paying AMT in the last few years and I have zero mortgage deduction.</blockquote>


mmmhhhh. do youhave a mortgage, WestparkRenter ?
 
I think tomorrow is the best time to buy.



Don't wait till October. Make sure you get only a fixed loan and put 20% or don't buy it.
 
[quote author="hs_teacher" date=1222745344][quote author="asianinvasian" date=1222733743][quote author="flmgrip" date=1222728528][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222727142][quote author="flmgrip" date=1222725351]



how about those guys who bought next to the 133, the el toro air base, the pesticide infested former orange fields, the big mountain of waste, the trailer park next door, the major "highways" irvine jeffrey & sand canyon ? prices have dropped equally no matter where you look...</blockquote>


I think the project at Villages of Columbus sucks. It's right next to the worst area in Santa Ana, the developer makes you sign a waiver because of the toxic plume that is left over from El Toro, the traffic in and around the area is horrible, and it has the personality of a Target. The neighborhood rules regarding parking cars on the street are insane.



There are tons better neighborhoods at the same price in Irvine without all the disadvantages that remain conviently contained in prision walls they call Villages of Columbus. You wouldn't want Santa Ana to get mad.



I like how you call me out on the AMT thing, I hand you your ass (because you were wrong), and you claim I don't use facts in your next post. You crack me up.</blockquote>


if you are a renter in the VoC, just move. you seem to know quite a bit about VoC, so i would think you are living there... but who knows, everyone can be whatever they want on here...

</blockquote>


He is just jealous that he can only rent and will never own. Even in a huge down market he is still priced out. ROFLMAO.</blockquote>


VoC is "next to the worst area in Santa Ana?" "The traffic in and around is horrible"?



Columbus Square is miles away from the worst of Santa Ana. And Columbus Grove is nowhere near Santa Ana.

There's no traffic around Columbus Square - period. And Columbus Grove has your typical Irvine traffic.

As for the street parking, have the rules been enforced yet?



I think that Columbus Square is a nice neighborhood in the middle of nowhere. What kind of an area it will develop into will be based upon the development of the old base. It's conveniently located close to Santa Ana, the heart of Tustin, and Irvine. [Personally, I don't care much for Santa Ana, Tustin, or Irvine.]



Columbus Grove, on the other hand, is nothing more than an extension of Irvine. As a matter of fact, it IS in Irvine.</blockquote>


The worst part of Santa Ana is on Edinger between Bristol and Grand. The High School near Grand and Edinger is the corner where most gang fights between rivals occured. It is 2 miles from VOC.
 
[quote author="flmgrip" date=1222760231][quote author="WestparkRenter" date=1222727471][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222686120][quote author="flmgrip" date=1222684592][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222653474][quote author="columbussquare.com" date=1222649472][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222642583]Can I get a conventional 30 year fixed on $385K for $1750 a month, including impounding taxes, with $2000 down? Thought so. When I can rent an equivlent property for half what I can buy it for, either my rents are going to skyrocket, or prices are coming down. This much imbalance between rents and ownership costs can't exist. I'm not laying my money on rents skyrocketing.</blockquote>


Assuming that you could get 100% financing (which is becoming less likely these days) I would estimate the monthly cost for principle, interest, insurance, and taxes on a $385k home to be $2,887. So it would have a monthly difference in cost of $1,137. But that isn't accurate since the renter is paying for housing with after-tax dollars. My guess is that renting would costs more than $2,000/mo in this scenario. The current system doesn't allow you to keep the money, it has to either go to the bank or the government. With the government there is very little upside potential on a personal level. [/i]</blockquote>


My brother and his wife purchased a home last year. The addition of the "RE income tax deduction" pushed them over the AMT cap, because your personal deductions (personal exemptions and those for for dependents, state income tax, property tax, and your mortgage interest) are considered "tax shelters". Too many individuals find this out the hard way because they don't do adaquate tax planning. My wife and I are in similar circumstances. If we were to buy a home, the tax advantage would be negative compared to renting unless prices fall off another 40% or more. If we were in Nevada it would be different, but we're in California and we have the highest effective state taxes in the nation.



Every year, AMT renders the standard "Real Estate has Tax Advantages" advice more and more obsolete. Banks will soon reflect this reality and factor thier debt/income ratios (especially in California), allowing less leverage than what they've taken in the past, further depressing house prices.



But I wouldn't expect you to know that because you sell houses and aren't a EA or a CPA.</blockquote>


this statement is just plain wrong. property tax will work in yout favor for AMT, not against it</blockquote>


No, it won't. AMT considers your property tax and mortgage interest expense a "tax shelter".



I know of someone who lives in Bakersfield, makes $38K a year as a waitress, is a single mother of one, and owns a pretty plain condo - who is subject to AMT because they consider her personal exemption, her exemption for her daughter, her property tax exemption, her mortgage exemption, and her California state income tax exemption as a "tax shelter". As you ratchet your incomes up, it gets worse. Nobody cares about AMT untill you get clipped by it. I have been paying my CPA to effectively calculate two returns since 2003 for exactly this reason. I have been able to take some steps to minimize my AMT exposure. If I buy a property it all goes out the window because I am under the AMT caps by the narrowest of margins.



What the columbussquare person wrote USED TO be correct, but isn't anymore, especially in SoCal where incomes and property values are higher than BFE Plano or Bakersfield. Over the past five years, it started to become "well sometimes" and then "more often" and without Congresional action (which isn't coming in light of the deficts we have committed ourselves to over the past 7 1/2 years) will become "totally standard".</blockquote>


I have been paying AMT in the last few years and I have zero mortgage deduction.</blockquote>


mmmhhhh. do youhave a mortgage, WestparkRenter ?</blockquote>


No
 
[quote author="columbussquare.com" date=1222756599][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1222746363]There is a good time to buy: when it is cheaper than renting. Other than that, you are speculating on appreciation and most likely going to lose your money. Just watch.</blockquote>


If that's your benchmark then it will be rare for you to find a buying opportunity in the OC. Try South Carolina or Missouri. Demand exceeds supply. Demand is not just from renters but also investors, high net-worth individuals, people who know that ownership is a hedge against increasing housing costs, etc. Value in housing is based on perception of value and the recent transactions that represent that.</blockquote>


Again, 1992 to 1998 proves you wrong.
 
[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1222770272][quote author="columbussquare.com" date=1222756599][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1222746363]There is a good time to buy: when it is cheaper than renting. Other than that, you are speculating on appreciation and most likely going to lose your money. Just watch.</blockquote>


If that's your benchmark then it will be rare for you to find a buying opportunity in the OC. Try South Carolina or Missouri. Demand exceeds supply. Demand is not just from renters but also investors, high net-worth individuals, people who know that ownership is a hedge against increasing housing costs, etc. Value in housing is based on perception of value and the recent transactions that represent that.</blockquote>


Again, 1992 to 1998 proves you wrong.</blockquote>


Where is that picture that shows the cost to rent was more than to own from the 90s when you need it?
 
[quote author="columbussquare.com" date=1222756599][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1222746363]There is a good time to buy: when it is cheaper than renting. Other than that, you are speculating on appreciation and most likely going to lose your money. Just watch.</blockquote>


If that's your benchmark then it will be rare for you to find a buying opportunity in the OC. Try South Carolina or Missouri. Demand exceeds supply. Demand is not just from renters but also investors, high net-worth individuals, people who know that ownership is a hedge against increasing housing costs, etc. Value in housing is based on perception of value and the recent transactions that represent that.</blockquote>


I know the concept of <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/blog/comments/what-is-a-bubble/">irrational exuberance</a> is difficult to convey, but it is important because periodically prices fall to fundamental valuations and stay their for extended periods of time before people "buy in" to the nonsense of perpetual appreciation and foolishly bid up prices again. At some level I sense that you get this, or you wouldn't have noted that "Value in housing is based on perception of value and the recent transactions that represent that." That is the essence of irrational exuberance. The real value of housing is based on comparative rents. That is a measurable valuation technique. The amount that someone pays for housing based on foolish ideas is not "value," it is current pricing. When prices crash, they fall until they reach the true value. If you think it is a good time to buy based on perceived value, what happens when perceptions change? You see, underlying rental value doesn't change with the psychology of the market. Perceived value does.
 
I have a good example.



I'll be moving in 3 months due to a change in worksite (I just got transferred to the Valley !) Sooo, I drove out to Santa Clarita/Valencia area to start looking at places. I found a nice 1/1 in a newer lennar building www.lennarmadison.com These were originally condos for sale, but after only 76 sold, they turned to rentals. So, poor 76 buyers.....they have renters all around them, but they're stuck.



There are a couple of comparable units still for sale.....like the one I'm interested in renting.



Now, If I rent a 1/1 there, I pay 1500 flat. If I buy, with PITI and condo fee, I'd shell out about 600 more a month. So, it's a no brainer to rent right now.

<a href="http://www.redfin.com/CA/Valencia/24505-Town-Center-Dr-91355/unit-7409/home/12355231">Lennar condo in Valencia</a>
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1222774517]I'll be moving in 3 months due to a change in worksite (I just got transferred to the Valley !)</blockquote>


NOOOOOOOO! That means you will be even further away. Sad crackercakes. :down:
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1222774693][quote author="Trooper" date=1222774517]I'll be moving in 3 months due to a change in worksite (I just got transferred to the Valley !)</blockquote>


NOOOOOOOO! That means you will be even further away. Sad crackercakes. :down:</blockquote>


I second that. :long:



I'll wave to you on my way back from Ventura County.
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1222774517]I have a good example.



I'll be moving in 3 months due to a change in worksite (I just got transferred to the Valley !) Sooo, I drove out to Santa Clarita/Valencia area to start looking at places. I found a nice 1/1 in a newer lennar building www.lennarmadison.com These were originally condos for sale, but after only 76 sold, they turned to rentals. So, poor 76 buyers.....they have renters all around them, but they're stuck.



There are a couple of comparable units still for sale.....like the one I'm interested in renting.



Now, If I rent a 1/1 there, I pay 1500 flat. If I buy, with PITI and condo fee, I'd shell out about 600 more a month. So, it's a no brainer to rent right now.

<a href="http://www.redfin.com/CA/Valencia/24505-Town-Center-Dr-91355/unit-7409/home/12355231">Lennar condo in Valencia</a></blockquote>


$1500 a month for a 1/1 is a mint for a rental, especially in that part of the world. Absolutely the top of the market.
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1222774517]



I'll be moving in 3 months due to a change in worksite (I just got transferred to the Valley !) </blockquote>


Trooper....do you happen to work the division which patrols the Porter Ranch area? I think Devonshire? All of our extended family on my wife's side lives out in Northridge, and with an addition to our own family on the horizon, we are strongly considering a move closer to retired g'parents, siblings, and their families. We have been looking hard at Porter Ranch -- and I would love to know if you have an opinion on the relative safety of that area, from an insider perspective. Many thanks for any thoughts you have.



Maybe we'll be neighbors!
 
[quote author="CK" date=1222778715][quote author="Trooper" date=1222774517]



I'll be moving in 3 months due to a change in worksite (I just got transferred to the Valley !) </blockquote>


Trooper....do you happen to work the division which patrols the Porter Ranch area? I think Devonshire? All of our extended family on my wife's side lives out in Northridge, and with an addition to our own family on the horizon, we are strongly considering a move closer to retired g'parents, siblings, and their families. We have been looking hard at Porter Ranch -- and I would love to know if you have an opinion on the relative safety of that area, from an insider perspective. Many thanks for any thoughts you have.



Maybe we'll be neighbors!</blockquote>


Almost my entire family lives up in the area, Porter Ranch, Granada Hills, Valencia, etc. Not a bad area but somewhat tough commute if you gotta head into DT LA.



Hey Troop, my family owns a couple of condo rentals in Valencia. Older places but walking distance to Valencia Town Center. Nice neighborhood. If you'd be interested <a href="http://www.redfin.com/CA/Valencia/23609-Del-Monte-Dr-91355/unit-305/home/6073660">in a place like this</a>, I can check and see if either if either lease is coming up...
 
[quote author="CK" date=1222778715][quote author="Trooper" date=1222774517]



I'll be moving in 3 months due to a change in worksite (I just got transferred to the Valley !) </blockquote>


Trooper....do you happen to work the division which patrols the Porter Ranch area? I think Devonshire? All of our extended family on my wife's side lives out in Northridge, and with an addition to our own family on the horizon, we are strongly considering a move closer to retired g'parents, siblings, and their families. We have been looking hard at Porter Ranch -- and I would love to know if you have an opinion on the relative safety of that area, from an insider perspective. Many thanks for any thoughts you have.



Maybe we'll be neighbors!</blockquote>


The entire Porter Ranch has been developed by Shapell with products that offer larger lots. Wind and fire are residents concern. Crime is low there due to its neighboring community of Simi Valley (cop capitol).
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1222772712][quote author="columbussquare.com" date=1222756599]

If that's your benchmark then it will be rare for you to find a buying opportunity in the OC. Try South Carolina or Missouri. Demand exceeds supply. Demand is not just from renters but also investors, high net-worth individuals, people who know that ownership is a hedge against increasing housing costs, etc. Value in housing is based on perception of value and the recent transactions that represent that.</blockquote>


I know the concept of <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/blog/comments/what-is-a-bubble/">irrational exuberance</a> is difficult to convey, but it is important because periodically prices fall to fundamental valuations and stay their for extended periods of time before people "buy in" to the nonsense of perpetual appreciation and foolishly bid up prices again. At some level I sense that you get this, or you wouldn't have noted that "Value in housing is based on perception of value and the recent transactions that represent that." That is the essence of irrational exuberance. The real value of housing is based on comparative rents. That is a measurable valuation technique. The amount that someone pays for housing based on foolish ideas is not "value," it is current pricing. When prices crash, they fall until they reach the true value. If you think it is a good time to buy based on perceived value, what happens when perceptions change? You see, underlying rental value doesn't change with the psychology of the market. Perceived value does.</blockquote>


There are many other assets that sell at their "perceived value" like stocks. The assumption is that in a market with perfect information the perception will represent an accurate future value of the asset. New events occur that change perception are said to be "priced into the market" once an adjustment has occured. One analyst's opinion (like the one quoted by JP Morgan recently) is not enough to validate a trend since they are other analysts with opinions that differ. <strong>To accept your theory rent rates equals "real values" would be like saying that book value is the "real value" for stocks. </strong>



Would buying a house at the rent rate generally be a good buy? Yes, assuming that the property is a quality building in good repair in a good location that is neither excessively larger or excessively smaller than the neighborhood. Yet, wouldn't the value be higher to an investor who could receive not just the rental rate but also real tax savings from depreciating the cost of the building? Or would that same property be worth more if the rent rate could be increased by marketing the property to college students who collectively could pay more than a middle-income family and are willing to do so because it is in close proximity to their school?



Occasionally stocks trade at their book value. Generally the ones that do are bad companies that either don't have positive prospects or haven't been able to communicate that to the investment community. It's not irrational exuberance to acknowledge that a standardized method for valuing SFR homes is to look at recent "comps" and adjust them to match the property that you're reviewing. I've said before that in addition to the adjustments for similar attributes but you should also adjust for financing costs.



What you call the "real value" I consider the "minimum value". A "rational value" can and should be higher than the rental rate. At the recent peak rental rates were about 50% of the "comparable market price". With prices down approximately 25% because of the short-sales, foreclosures, and strong competition from new home sales that would put rental rates at 67% of the "value". When you consider that the "holding cost" doesn't increase as quickly as rents the longer you own the property it will gain a competitive advantage compared to the same neighborhood over time.



If we were both real estate analysts at Wall Street firms, then you would most likely post a SELL recommendation and I would post a HOLD recommendation (<em>yesterday I would have had a BUY rating but congress is adding a lot of uncertainty to the market right now by saying they're doing something then failing to get the votes</em>).



If you were my adviser knowing that I subscribe to the higher than rental rate viewpoint... what range would you approve in protest? What would you say the current ratio is?
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1222757768][quote author="ipoplaya" date=1222750020]Not having the property tax deduction could create AMT liability vs. traditional calculation, so AMT can negate the favorably tax consequences of ownership with regards to property tax. </blockquote>


This is what I'm trying to say. Most people who can afford a median priced Irvine home have incomes that already subject them to AMT, thus negating the tax benefit.</blockquote>


Mortgage Interest Deduction Rules

Q: Tax Playa, can I deduct the mortgage interest on my home?

Kurt, Salt Lake City, UT



A: In general, mortgage interest is deductible. In practice, however, it is only open to those 30% of taxpayers who itemize their deductions. Additionally, the deduction tops out after a second home, a large set of mortgages, or a high income.



For more information on the home mortgage interest deduction, please consult IRS Publication 936, "Home Mortgage Interest Deduction."



If you or your spouse is legally liable for a mortgage that is a secured debt on a qualified home, the interest on that mortgage is deductible.



There are several limitations on this:



You must itemize your deductions. For the most part, if you had a mortgage for most of the year, this isn't a difficult threshold to meet.

The mortgages can only cover your main home and a second home.

Only $1,000,000 total of "home acquisition" mortgage debt is allowed (debt used to pay for your home).

Only $100,000 total of "home equity" mortgage debt is allowed (cashing out equity). This is completely-disallowed for AMT taxpayers.

When the $1,000,0000/$100,000 limits were put in place in 1987, that was a stratospheric amount of debt to carry. Now, though, it isn't hard to see a married couple having two $600,000 mortgages on two homes. They are still more affluent than the average American, but Joe Sixpack is catching up.



If there is any business or rental use of your home, the interest must be properly-allocated between personal and business/rental use.



Points paid at closing are fully-deductible if they are to acquire the home. For refinancings and cash-outs of equity, though, the points deduction must be amortized over the life of the loan.



Like most itemized deductions, the home mortgage interest deduction is subject to the itemized deduction phaseout. If your AGI exceeds $150,500 in 2006, your home mortgage interest deduction will begin to be slowly disallowed.
 
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