Villages of Columbus - Columbus Square - Camden Place

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[quote author="asianinvasian" date=1213419998][quote author="freedomCM" date=1213418056]I dispute it. I won't live in a place that you can't plant vegetables. That means that the soil is contaminated.

</blockquote>


Can you post a link to the document that says you can't plant vegetables? Thanks. I haven't seen it and just want to look at the facts instead of what some people heard some other people say.</blockquote>


You won't find it, because it doesn't exist. The disclosure discourages you from eating fruit from fruit trees, as trees with a tap root would be the only way the chemicals in the groundwater could get into something you would eat. Vegetables root systems will not get to the groundwater.



You can dispute it all you want, but you are misinformed. Repeat, there is no soil contamination at Columbus Square. The whole site was filled with four or more feet of fill soil. All of the fill soil was tested before coming on site. End of story.
 
[quote author="Kiter" date=1213421152]

You won't find it, because it doesn't exist. The disclosure discourages you from eating fruit from fruit trees, as trees with a tap root would be the only way the chemicals in the groundwater could get into something you would eat.

</blockquote>


That's what I thought. Then this is a non-issue, since you can't even plant trees at Camden Place. End of story.
 
acpme... How often do you go to The District? I go there on a weekly basis... either to Target, Petsmart, Office Depot, Costco, or to use the ATM. When I'm heading south on Jamboree, I just exit Warner and it's so easy to enter. When I head north on Jamboree, I just make a left on Barranca and everything is fine. When I go west on Barranca, I just simply make a right. Now I do admit that going east is a little confusing, but that's due the the power lines. I have a friend who's a civil engineer who worked on that project. She said it was incredibly difficult to widen Barranca while keeping those power lines in place. So this it's something the builder couldn't change. Please don't try to blame that on their planning.



It's beginning to occur to me that the people who are complaining about Tustin Legacy doesn't really live there nor frequently visit the businesses there.



Also distance matters a lot. I have so many friends in Huntington Beach who would rather roll over and die than move to the Portola Hills desert. Palos Verdes is worth the distance because it is coastal. Portola Springs has notthing but dead shrubbery.



Can anyone out there dare to say that Portola Springs have a location premium over Columbus Grove?



The northern region of Irvine is stable because it has a good school and well developed homes/business - it was developed during the past 10 years during the real esate boom. The southern region has the appeal of UCI and Newport Coast to keep it desirable and exclusive. The western region is close to businesses and the rest of the major OC cities - making it the gateway to Irvine. The eastern region - by the El Toro base - needs to wait another 10 years before it will become considered a prime real estate location.



Thus, I think Columbus Grove has a much greater location premium over Portola Springs. When I'm encouraging others to move to Irvine, I'm definitely promoting the Jamboree end, not the Sand Canyon side.
 
When was the last time we heard of builders volunteer negative information that would hurt sales? That is right. Never! Builders and developers will only overly exaggerate the positive attributes and down play the negatives.



[quote author="freedomCM" date=1213418056]I dispute it. I won't live in a place that you can't plant vegetables. That means that the soil is contaminated.



[quote author="rickhunter" date=1213411925]Does anybody dispute this? Can we accept this going forward?



The cover your own ass theory works for me!



[quote author="Kiter" date=1213399154]

The soil is not contaminated at Columbus Square. As was stated previously, there is a plume of contaminated groundwater below the former Tustin MCAS. This plume is not under Columbus Square. It is several hundred feet to the west of Columbus Square. There is a "buffer zone" that the Navy and the DTSC (Department of Toxic Substance Control) have established around the plume, that does encroach into a portion of Camden Place, Meriwether, and Astoria. For disclosure purposes, advisements were placed on the property to discourage eating fruit from trees that are grown on the property, among other warnings, but the likelihood of a tree sending a tap root several hundred feet to the west is highly unlikely. There is no contaminated groundwater directly under Columbus Square, and no contaminated soil anywhere on the site. All of the soil that you would ever come in contact with was clean, imported soil from other sites.



Bottom line, there is no risk to the residents of Columbus Square, but due to our litigious society, and the need to cover their ass, the builder published a conservative disclosure presenting the existence of the plume.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
 
[quote author="CM_Dude" date=1213420409]I ahven't been around much lately, and was surprised to see the toxics talk invade this thread, as IHB members had discussed this a while back:http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/2147/



The Department of Toxic Substance Control has a dedicated website for former MCAS Tustin:http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/OMF/Projects/Tustin_MCAF.cfm



This link is to their "Where to Get More Information" page, with specific contact information:http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/OMF/Projects/upload/MCAS-Tustin_PN_Repository--Information.pdf



And their Envirostor database has tons of information as well. DTSC is the lead agency, and all of your questions, doubts and concerns can be addressed factually by reviewing this website and contacting the relevant agencies:



http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=30970002



MCAS Tustin was a dirty base - with landfills, burn pits, leaks, etc. It is an active site in the "DTSC - SITE MITIGATION AND BROWNFIELD REUSE PROGRAM" with future activities planned. Thousands of tons of contaminated sediments have been excavated and replaced with clean fill. The groundwater plumes have been isolated, according to DTSC. Whether you trust the government or not is a personal choice. However, there are many reports available - you can at least make an informed choice.</blockquote>


Very informative! Consistent to the information I have contacted for my profession.
 
[quote author="Kiter" date=1213421152][quote author="asianinvasian" date=1213419998][quote author="freedomCM" date=1213418056]I dispute it. I won't live in a place that you can't plant vegetables. That means that the soil is contaminated.

</blockquote>


Can you post a link to the document that says you can't plant vegetables? Thanks. I haven't seen it and just want to look at the facts instead of what some people heard some other people say.</blockquote>


You won't find it, because it doesn't exist. The disclosure discourages you from eating fruit from fruit trees, as trees with a tap root would be the only way the chemicals in the groundwater could get into something you would eat. Vegetables root systems will not get to the groundwater.



You can dispute it all you want, but you are misinformed. Repeat, there is no soil contamination at Columbus Square. The whole site was filled with four or more feet of fill soil. All of the fill soil was tested before coming on site. End of story.</blockquote>


When toxin leaked into the ground water reservoir leeched through great distance beneath the earth surface and contaminated all the dirt it came in contact with then how can the removal of just 4' of top soil be considered cleaned up. When kids defecated in the pool and the sh*t has sunk to the bottom of the pool do you just replace several inches of water and the pool is sanitary to swim in. How do you really extract pee out of the pool when you do not replace the entire water content in the pool? The report indicated contamination at great depth and not just the upper 4' near the earth surface.



The topical 4' of dirt is believed to be a good distance that human would not be in contact with contaminated soil under normal circumstances.



It is still contaminated 4.000001' below the finished grade. What if Fido tried to dig a hole to bury a bone or homeowners digging a really big hole for a swimming pool. Then what do you do with the contaminated dirt dug up below the 4' level?



4' of dirt is only a bandage covering the wound that will never heal. The scar is beneath the bandage (4' of dirt). It is only an marginal method to prevent contact with contaminated soil. What if the yard is flooded and water mixed in with contaminants 4.00001' below is back flowed on the yard surface?



Would you live on top of a trash landfill when 4' of dirt is placed at the top to cover the contamination and smell? 4' of top soil there is also believed to be a reasonable barrier for people to walk on and vehicles to drive over.



The condition of the land is still toxic but made habitable since 4' of dirt is believed to be a minimal barrier that would prevent humans coming in contact with contaminants under normal circumstances.



DO NOT DIG ANY HOLE OR DISTURB THE SOIL IN YOUR YARD. Do not install irrigation deeper than 2' below grade. Avoid trees with deep root system such as Ficus. Try not to amend the soil too much because mixing could stir up airborned dust.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1213425717][quote author="Kiter" date=1213421152][quote author="asianinvasian" date=1213419998][quote author="freedomCM" date=1213418056]I dispute it. I won't live in a place that you can't plant vegetables. That means that the soil is contaminated.

</blockquote>


Can you post a link to the document that says you can't plant vegetables? Thanks. I haven't seen it and just want to look at the facts instead of what some people heard some other people say.</blockquote>


You won't find it, because it doesn't exist. The disclosure discourages you from eating fruit from fruit trees, as trees with a tap root would be the only way the chemicals in the groundwater could get into something you would eat. Vegetables root systems will not get to the groundwater.



You can dispute it all you want, but you are misinformed. Repeat, there is no soil contamination at Columbus Square. The whole site was filled with four or more feet of fill soil. All of the fill soil was tested before coming on site. End of story.</blockquote>


When toxin leaked into the ground water reservoir leeched through great distance beneath the earth surface and contaminated all the dirt it came in contact with then how can the removal of just 4' of top soil be considered cleaned up. When kids defecated in the pool and the sh*t has sunk to the bottom of the pool do you just replace several inches of water and the pool is sanitary to swim in. How do you really extract pee out of the pool when you do not replace the entire water content in the pool? The report indicated contamination at great depth and not just the upper 4' near the earth surface.



The topical 4' of dirt is believed to be a good distance that human would not be in contact with contaminated soil under normal circumstances.



It is still contaminated 4.000001' below the finished grade. What if Fido tried to dig a hole to bury a bone or homeowners digging a really big hole for a swimming pool. Then what do you do with the contaminated dirt dug up below the 4' level?



4' of dirt is only a bandage covering the wound that will never heal. The scar is beneath the bandage (4' of dirt). It is only an marginal method to prevent contact with contaminated soil. What if the yard is flooded and water mixed in with contaminants 4.00001' below is back flowed on the yard surface?



Would you live on top of a trash landfill when 4' of dirt is placed at the top to cover the contamination and smell? 4' of top soil there is also believed to be a reasonable barrier for people to walk on and vehicles to drive over.



The condition of the land is still toxic but made habitable since 4' of dirt is believed to be a minimal barrier that would prevent humans coming in contact with contaminants under normal circumstances.



DO NOT DIG ANY HOLE OR DISTURB THE SOIL IN YOUR YARD. Do not install irrigation deeper than 2' below grade. Avoid trees with deep root system such as Ficus. Try not to amend the soil too much because mixing could stir up airborned dust.</blockquote>


Can you post a link to the document that says 4' of soil was replaced to remediate the parts of the base that were not even contaminated to begin with? Thanks. I haven?t seen it and just want to look at the facts instead of what some people heard some other people say.
 
[quote author="hs_teacher" date=1213422725]I have a friend who's a civil engineer who worked on that project. She said it was incredibly difficult to widen Barranca while keeping those power lines in place. So this it's something the builder couldn't change. Please don't try to blame that on their planning.

</blockquote>


inexcusable. that's like saying i built my house on quicksand. it sank but that's not my fault because the quicksand couldn't be moved? yes, it's still my fault. i didn't need to choose that location.



<blockquote>It's beginning to occur to me that the people who are complaining about Tustin Legacy doesn't really live there nor frequently visit the businesses there.</blockquote>


i drive by the district every day to and from work. i like some of the restaurants there but that's about it. i don't do my shopping at the costco, target, or lowes there because there are more convenient alternatives. you just hit it on the head. few people live in the area now, and no one is going to venture out of their way to frequent those business that doesnt live nearby. while you say the opinions of those who don't go there are irrelevant, they in fact hold the key to understanding the shopping ctr. their behavior tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about the district as well as some information about the legacy.



a typical power center has about 250-600k sq gross leasable area and typically 3 big box retailers. the district is a category killer with $1m+ sq ft GLA and a dozen tenants that alone could anchor most strip centers. unlike a neighborhood center, these category killers need to draw from an extended regional base in order to survive. and thats the rub. the district was planned on the assumption it could draw people from as far as 10 miles away, tapping a population of 1.5 million. imo the premise was/is faulty and presumtous.



entertainment and dining center are currently the draw. when the novelty wears off, the question is how well they can continue to draw customers. thai bistros, coffee shops, and a theater (of which OC already has a ridiculous number of screens per capita) will not sustain the center. costcos and targets are the lifeblood -- and those tenants are not happy at the moment because of slow business.



accessibility is definitely an issue and to deny it is silly. while those who live in the immediate area are familiar with the back entrances and shortcuts, it's really not all that accessible from a traditional stdpoint. the old real estate adage of LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION rings true. not only is the district not visible and accessible directly off a major freeway, it's completely hemmed in by world-class competition. this is what anyone venturing into that area for shopping will find...



1) from the 5N they will have to exit jamboree and already find themselves smack in the middle of another regional mega center -- the irvine/tustin mktplace.

2) coming up from south county they will encounter the spectrum first.

3) coming north on the 405 they pass by south coast metro -- home of the 2nd highest grossing mall in america.



people would literally have to drive past some of the most well-established and profitable shopping centers ever built to come to the district. fat chance. i can guarantee the bren and segerstrom families aren't losing any sleep.
 
[quote author="Kiter" date=1213421152][quote author="asianinvasian" date=1213419998][quote author="freedomCM" date=1213418056]I dispute it. I won't live in a place that you can't plant vegetables. That means that the soil is contaminated.

</blockquote>


Can you post a link to the document that says you can't plant vegetables? Thanks. I haven't seen it and just want to look at the facts instead of what some people heard some other people say.</blockquote>


You won't find it, because it doesn't exist. The disclosure discourages you from eating fruit from fruit trees, as trees with a tap root would be the only way the chemicals in the groundwater could get into something you would eat. Vegetables root systems will not get to the groundwater.



You can dispute it all you want, but you are misinformed. Repeat, there is no soil contamination at Columbus Square. The whole site was filled with four or more feet of fill soil. All of the fill soil was tested before coming on site. End of story.</blockquote>


I am going to challenge you on the replacement of 4' of dirt.



Area of Tustin MCAS 1,511 acres.

1,511 acres x 43560sf/acre = 65,819,160 sf

65,819,160 sf / 9 sf = 7,313,240 square yards

7,313,240 square yards x 1.33 yard (4')= 9,726,609 cubic yards of dirt to be replaced.



A truck can only hold 10 cubic yards of dirt each trip due to container size as well as maximum weight allowed on local road.



9,726,609 cubic yards /10 cubic yards per trip= 972,661 trips is almost ONE MILLION TRIPS



Has any one seen trucks filled with a full load of dirt leaving and going to Tustin MCAS one million time?????



The answer is NO NO NO NO. Then my logic tells me that they did not replace 4' of dirt as claimed. They did not even replace 4' of dirt on the site or they did only a portion of MCAS and the remaining toxin are still there as potential hazzard to people living there.



Asianinvasion will probably tell be only a smart part of the site is toxic. Then why not just build on the large part that is not toxic and we would not have this discussion. I will just go home and replace the water at the north east corner of the pool where poop was found.
 
Acpme wrote "btw analyzing mall and strip developers is part of my job"







This power center was intented as a reginal mall. It needs to generate revenue way beyond the patranage by its convenient neighbors living next door who know the in and out of the place.



Regional mall with the national brand anchor tenants are drawing demographic from many miles away who would be unfamiliar with local access. The duplication of Target, Chic Fillet, Costco, and Lowe from less than a mile away is completely unconventional unless the developer convinced the tenants the adjacent neighborhoods will be densely populated.



Entrance to power center are required to have traffic deceleration lane for a right turn in as well as a very long stacking for a single left turn or double lane for making a left turn into the mall. The required stacking lane is a result from calculating trip count generated by peak periods when people are visiting the mall at peak time like Holidays, Satuday afternoon or lunch time during weekdays.



Unfortunately the grade differential from Jamboree and the sunken site eliminated the direct entrance connection. The city would have discouraged decelerating speed on Jamboree due to traffic rear end collisions. Entrance on Barranca is not on the major traffic corridor and awkward for shoe horning an entrance.



Legacy needed a high profile corner for visibility but the land is too separated from the existing roads' topograghically. The solutions for ingress and egress is therefore contrived.



Legacy has limited resources from an engineering standpoint in dealing with traffic and utility relocation. TIC on the contrary has all specialist dealing with roads, utilities and all kind of engineering issues. Jeffrey Road improvement is one good example. TIC swerved the road, relocated railroad intersections, upsized storm drain ducts, prepared utilities for the future, and most importantly assigned landscape screening and buffer for the ugly trailer park next to the Arbor Center.
 
First of all, I have not seen a reference to 4' of dirt being replaced. I have seen multiple references to contaminated soil being removed, trucked offsite and diposed of in an approved facility.



Second, cleanup is ongoing. 12 of 16 identified areas are still undergoing remediation, according to Envirostor. The best way to settle these debates and get everyone on the same page is to review the reports and documents.



This is an eye-opening resource:http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=30970002



Typically, soil will get contaminated and the pollutants will not migrate laterally in the soil itself. There are references to "surgical soil removal" in the reports. So, despite extensive groundwater contamination, that water is not being used for irrigation or drinking.



It is a goal of the regulatory agencies to get land cleaned up and back into use. Where that is not possible, DTSC records deeds restricting the use of the land for homes, schools, hospitals, etc. There are such deed restrictions in place at Tustin MCAS, several of which are as recent as 1/28/08.



Huge swaths - many square miles - of urban Southern California sit atop heavily contaminated groundwater. Contaminated groundwater is not necessarily hazardous to the people living above it.



None of this means that no one should be concerned, but the data and reports are out there, easy to find and readily available.
 
<blockquote>But a good fact is that the groundwater table in the Irvine Basin is very deep, at least 100 feet below the ground.</blockquote>


<a href="http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/regulators/deliverable_documents/6799237906/Tustin_Legacy_VCA.pdf">According to this document</a>...



<em>The Site geology is composed primarily of fine-grained floodplain sediments with interbedded and

laterally discontinuous fluvial deposits composed of coarser sands and gravels. Groundwater occurs

in these sand and gravel lenses, which vary in thickness and extent.<strong> Groundwater at the Site occurs

between approximately 6 feet and 12 feet below ground surface.</strong> Tbe groundwater flow direction is

generally to the south with a gradient of approximately 0.005 feet per foot.</em>



Thanks to CM_Dude, <a href="http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=30970002">I am finding plenty of nastiness here too</a>.



It will be interesting as to what else I will find.
 
Don't even think about digging a koi pond in the back yard.



<img src="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:5b5zraw9PO0HwM:http://www.funbumperstickers.com/images/Blinky.gif" alt="" />
 
[quote author="profette" date=1213434194]Don't even think about digging a koi pond in the back yard.



<img src="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:5b5zraw9PO0HwM:http://www.funbumperstickers.com/images/Blinky.gif" alt="" /></blockquote>


What about a sunken basement like one of the models?
 
[quote author="acpme" date=1213429084][quote author="hs_teacher" date=1213422725]I have a friend who's a civil engineer who worked on that project. She said it was incredibly difficult to widen Barranca while keeping those power lines in place. So this it's something the builder couldn't change. Please don't try to blame that on their planning.

</blockquote>


1) from the 5N they will have to exit jamboree and already find themselves smack in the middle of another regional mega center -- the irvine/tustin mktplace.

2) coming up from south county they will encounter the spectrum first.

3) coming north on the 405 they pass by south coast metro -- home of the 2nd highest grossing mall in america.



people would literally have to drive past some of the most well-established and profitable shopping centers ever built to come to the district. fat chance. i can guarantee the bren and segerstrom families aren't losing any sleep.



btw analyzing mall and strip developers is part of my job.</blockquote>


With the Market Place to the North, I don't think the District can get a lot of customers from that area. But I do think that it's trying to divide the customers with the Spectrum to the East. I live by the District, and I would never go to the Spectrum for something I can get at the District.



As for the South, there's Fashion Island. And the West has South Coast Plaza. I don't think the District are even trying to compete with these two high end shopping centers.



All in all, I think the District's territory is south of the 5, north of the 405, and east of the 55. It's only true competitor is the Spectrum... which is far enough anyways.

I think the District's reach is very limited and regional. With the Market Place, the Spectrum, the Block, and Metropointe, I don't think anyone outside of the 5, 405, and 55 Triangle would be interested in the District. Hell, I would never go there if I didn't live so close to it.



As for visibility, even if I didn't shop at the District, there's absolutely no way I cannot see it when crossing the Jamboree/Barranca intersection.

Actually, I know a bunch of folks working along Von Karmon who go to the District for lunch.



I do think Tustin sucks. But I can see how Tustin Legacy can be very desirable 5-10 years from now.

I especially don't like Columbus Square right now. But I think Columbus Grove's location is as good as it gets for new homes.
 
bk, great stuff as always. the insight you bring from a design standpoint is eye-opening yet makes perfect sense once it's explained. i look at these developers from an investment standpoint. vestar is not a top developer in this business. they partnered with kimco which used to be one of the best names in the strip retail business. in the last few yrs kimco has been coasting on reputation yet i shudder to think about much worse the district could have been without kimco's involvement. strip retail can be a great bet in a recessionary scenario but bad developments can cause more harm than good to their surrounding communities.



i'm not trying to bash anyone who likes the area but i do wonder why anyone can so quickly disregard all the controversies. toxic soil, congested roads, badly planned shopping center, homeless facility nearby, the list goes on and on. it raises doubts over whether the master plan will ever get fulfilled and does not inspire confidence in the city, shea, or centex. ultimately that scares away potential investors/homebuyers.



whether these issues pose a threat to the legacy plan or not, is it worth the risk when you can live minutes away in neighborhoods where the only controversies are how many AP classes the local hs offers?
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1213435260][quote author="profette" date=1213434194]Don't even think about digging a koi pond in the back yard.



<img src="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:5b5zraw9PO0HwM:http://www.funbumperstickers.com/images/Blinky.gif" alt="" /></blockquote>


What about a sunken basement like one of the models?</blockquote>


You will look like AI after a bad day on IHB...



http://samueljscott.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/homer_simpson.jpg
 
[quote author="acpme" date=1213445934]

i'm not trying to bash anyone who likes the area but i do wonder why anyone can so quickly disregard all the controversies.



whether these issues pose a threat to the legacy plan or not, is it worth the risk when you can live minutes away in neighborhoods where the only controversies are how many AP classes the local hs offers?</blockquote>


Can you post a link to anywhere that mentions any controversies? Thanks. Because the only controversies I've seen so far are the ones made up here on this forum and I just want to get a second opinion.
 
[quote author="asianinvasian" date=1213487338][quote author="acpme" date=1213445934]

i'm not trying to bash anyone who likes the area but i do wonder why anyone can so quickly disregard all the controversies.



whether these issues pose a threat to the legacy plan or not, is it worth the risk when you can live minutes away in neighborhoods where the only controversies are how many AP classes the local hs offers?</blockquote>


Can you post a link to anywhere that mentions any controversies? Thanks. Because the only controversies I've seen so far are the ones made up here on this forum and I just want to get a second opinion.</blockquote>


Sheesh... talk about short attention span. acpme has posted plenty of links, including a site where people are suing from the bad drinking water.



I guess memory loss is one of the symptoms of living there, er working there.



Thanks for adding nothing to this thread, again.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1213489961][quote author="asianinvasian" date=1213487338][quote author="acpme" date=1213445934]

i'm not trying to bash anyone who likes the area but i do wonder why anyone can so quickly disregard all the controversies.



whether these issues pose a threat to the legacy plan or not, is it worth the risk when you can live minutes away in neighborhoods where the only controversies are how many AP classes the local hs offers?</blockquote>


Can you post a link to anywhere that mentions any controversies? Thanks. Because the only controversies I've seen so far are the ones made up here on this forum and I just want to get a second opinion.</blockquote>


Sheesh... talk about short attention span. acpme has posted plenty of links, including a site where people are suing from the bad drinking water.



I guess memory loss is one of the symptoms of living there, er working there.



Thanks for adding nothing to this thread, again.</blockquote>


Yes, short attention span indeed.



The link he posted was people suing for bad drinking water in North Carolina. Last time I checked, and VOC is in Tustin/Irvine not North Carolina. And the drinking water in VOC comes from Irvine, not North Carolina. So I ask again, pay attention now, what controversy exists in VOC, not North Carolina.



Thanks for adding nothing to this thread, again.
 
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