Tustin Military Base Could Be Toxic.

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<blockquote>There?s a new danger to worry about: granite countertops. Are granite countertops bad for your health? </blockquote>
Just breathing this California air will kill us first.
 
[quote author="EvaLSeraphim" date=1209765992]I was just thinking this morning that given that so much of the land in OC was agricultural before it was housing, there are probably a fair number of chemicals in the land a lot of the homes are sitting on. For example, DDT was often used as an agricultural pesticide and was not banned until 1972.



Paging Mr. No_Vaseline. Can you enlighten us about agricultural pesticides?</blockquote>


I'll try. It won't hurt you. There, I said it.



Seriously, groundwater contaimination from ag pesticides is very difficult to do because the material is applied in such miniscule quantities. Contamination from irrigation runoff is another matter.



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesterson_Reservoir">When irrigation drainage projects go unfinished, bad things happen.</a>



OC was never flood irrigated the way they do in the San Joaquin valley, and if it was, it all found its way out to the Pacific via the Santa Ana river, so we're probablly ok. Believe it or not, farmers are pretty good stewards of the land. They want to continue to farm and that entails not poisioning thier property. Chemicals are an economic (consumers won't eat ugly fruit) and saftey (you like worms in your tomatos?) driven necessity. They also cost a boatload of money.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1210426633]I'll try. It won't hurt you. There, I said it.



Seriously, groundwater contaimination from ag pesticides is very difficult to do because the material is applied in such miniscule quantities. Contamination from irrigation runoff is another matter.



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesterson_Reservoir">When irrigation drainage projects go unfinished, bad things happen.</a>



OC was never flood irrigated the way they do in the San Joaquin valley, and if it was, it all found its way out to the Pacific via the Santa Ana river, so we're probablly ok. Believe it or not, farmers are pretty good stewards of the land. They want to continue to farm and that entails not poisioning thier property. Chemicals are an economic (consumers won't eat ugly fruit) and saftey (you like worms in your tomatos?) driven necessity. They also cost a boatload of money.</blockquote>


Thank you!
 
[quote author="S_man" date=1210424270]Tustin MCAS. Bounded by Edinger to the north, Barranca to the south, SR-261 to the east, and Redhill to the west.</blockquote>


The Base technically ended at Harvard easterly direction. Jamboree dead end at Barranca until the 90's. A different Jamboree was built in Tustin and Orange during the late 80's The final stretch connecting the 2 Jamborees in Irvine and Tustin was during the 90's. The area at the Irvine side of Jamboree was also contaminated as well.



The zoning was such only industrial and storage facilities were allowed as its adjacency uses. The concrete plant and cheap industrial tilt-ups are still there. Both are eyesore to the community. For the longest time residential uses were forbidden but the pressure of land economic and favored political constituents forced the city to rezone.



Besides contaminants possible low level of radioactive waste from the military could also have been burried over its 50 year occupation. Government often covered up its dirtiest laundry. Sample readings were cored from different locations for studies. There is a possibility that many area in between could be subject to various levels of toxicity. Not eating fruits or vegetable grown on site is one thing but radiation could harm at close proximity. The samples tested did not have radioactive substances but that does not prove that it does not exist on the site. a couple hundred of samples across the entire site still left 5-10 acres in between samples untested. A lot of things could happen in 5 acres.



A good example was a military base in the Midwest or may be in Colorado ( I can't remember the name) that KB Homes built homes over buried ammunition such as live grenades. Studies were made there by various sample locations but the distance between samples were far to have missed the buried bombs. Foundation were poured over the land and no one would ever know what is really below the concrete. The excavated yards yielded numerous active bombs.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1210656588][quote author="S_man" date=1210424270]Tustin MCAS. Bounded by Edinger to the north, Barranca to the south, SR-261 to the east, and Redhill to the west.</blockquote>


The Base technically ended at Harvard easterly direction. Jamboree dead end at Barranca until the 90's. A different Jamboree was built in Tustin and Orange during the late 80's The final stretch connecting the 2 Jamborees in Irvine and Tustin was during the 90's. The area at the Irvine side of Jamboree was also contaminated as well.



The zoning was such only industrial and storage facilities were allowed as its adjacency uses. The concrete plant and cheap industrial tilt-ups are still there. Both are eyesore to the community. For the longest time residential uses were forbidden but the pressure of land economic and favored political constituents forced the city to rezone.



Besides contaminants possible low level of radioactive waste from the military could also have been burried over its 50 year occupation. Government often covered up its dirtiest laundry. Sample readings were cored from different locations for studies. There is a possibility that many area in between could be subject to various levels of toxicity. Not eating fruits or vegetable grown on site is one thing but radiation could harm at close proximity. The samples tested did not have radioactive substances but that does not prove that it does not exist on the site. a couple hundred of samples across the entire site still left 5-10 acres in between samples untested. A lot of things could happen in 5 acres.



A good example was a military base in the Midwest or may be in Colorado ( I can't remember the name) that KB Homes built homes over buried ammunition such as live grenades. Studies were made there by various sample locations but the distance between samples were far to have missed the buried bombs. Foundation were poured over the land and no one would ever know what is really below the concrete. The excavated yards yielded numerous active bombs.</blockquote>


so what happen with KB and the homeowner? what was the outcome? did KB have to give back the money to the homeowners?
 
A class action suit was filed. Homeowners could not sell their homes because of buyers' fear. They are stuck. KB volunteered to dig up the bombs in the rear yards but could not do anything with the bombs underneath the foundations. Sellers are required to disclose to the buyers regarding the bombs beneath the house. Would you buy the homes?



Take this scenario and apply some similar instances to the homes built on the Tustin base. Some sicknesses or some cancers are bound to happen that may or may not be related to the land. However, residents will question the land first. Sensational publicity will severely interfere with resales.



Trump's project in Rancho Palos Verdes built on Landslide and he claimed with proof to have stabalized it but buyers still have fear. Not one house was sold and he lost tons of money on this project. His first Apprentice Bill R. was just too smart to pass on this project and took the Chicago project instead.



Houses built on controversial lands all ends with a similar fate. I have followed similar housing projects for almost 30 years and all will face a very difficult in resale. It will appreciate the least. The affordable units will drag down the neighborhood pride and prestige. It is human nature to look for blame and point finger.
 
i believe bk is talking about the Southridge Hills development in Texas. it was built on a former military bombing practice range.



having been stationed at MCAS Tustin, i can assure the readers of this blog that no bombs were dropped there from 1983 to 1987.
 
I like to boil things down to very simple matters. In this case, I just have two questions:



a. how many new home communities in southern Ca require the buyers to sign a "no eating fruit or veg" cause as part of the purchase agreement?



b. Why the irvine company is not asking their buyers to sign such a doc for woodbury / ps / qh etc?
 
[quote author="irvine123" date=1210666943]I like to boil things down to very simple matters. In this case, I just have two questions:



a. how many new home communities in southern Ca require the buyers to sign a "no eating fruit or veg" cause as part of the purchase agreement?



b. Why the irvine company is not asking their buyers to sign such a doc for woodbury / ps / qh etc?</blockquote>


a. Very few have this clause because it scares away consumers. When it is listed and disclosed there are for sure wierd stuff under the homes.



b. Agricultural land produced crops for consumption so TIC is not concerned with people growing produce or fruits because James Irvine had been doing it since 1869. Another reason is what yard is there that can fit a fruit tree or vegetable garden? Allow me to suggest Chia-fruit or Chia-Vege.
 
[quote author="anela" date=1210664225]i believe bk is talking about the Southridge Hills development in Texas. it was built on a former military bombing practice range.



having been stationed at MCAS Tustin, i can assure the readers of this blog that no bombs were dropped there from 1983 to 1987.</blockquote>


While you stationed there what were you burning that created the huge black smoke that I could see for miles from Long Beach? Are you about 43 yr old?



The burning of ( ) were often that I witnessed on a weekly basis.
 
"Another reason is what yard is there that can fit a fruit tree or vegetable garden? Allow me to suggest Chia-fruit or Chia-Vege. "



I live in Irvine, and have a yard more than 30 feet deep. I have several fruit trees, and grows bunch of vegs. My Myers Lemons in the backyard taste great! My boys are waiting for the tomato to ripe in 61 days.





For the exact reasons BK just stated - "builders don't want to scare away potential buyers". So I would assume the builders will do everything they possibly can to avoid such a clause in the contract. If they have no choice BUT to add that in the contract after consulting all those expensive litigation attorneys, you don't need to be too smart to start questioning the "whys".
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1210672143]While you stationed there what were you burning that created the huge black smoke that I could see for miles from Long Beach? Are you about 43 yr old?



The burning of ( ) were often that I witnessed on a weekly basis.</blockquote>


close, i'm almost 45.



as for the smoke, that would be the crispy critters (aka crash fire rescue, aka crash crew). they liked to practice. almost all the smoke you saw was el toro. don't really remember them working too much at tustin, a couple of crashes on base (no one seriously injured and no real fire). lesson learned: bad things happen when you put a gyro 180 out, or a diode backwards. and for the record, i didn't work on either of those parts but knew the person(s) responsible.
 
[quote author="irvine123" date=1210672910]"Another reason is what yard is there that can fit a fruit tree or vegetable garden? Allow me to suggest Chia-fruit or Chia-Vege. "



I live in Irvine, and have a yard more than 30 feet deep. I have several fruit trees, and grows bunch of vegs. My Myers Lemons in the backyard taste great! My boys are waiting for the tomato to ripe in 61 days.





For the exact reasons BK just stated - "builders don't want to scare away potential buyers". So I would assume the builders will do everything they possibly can to avoid such a clause in the contract. If they have no choice BUT to add that in the contract after consulting all those expensive litigation attorneys, you don't need to be too smart to start questioning the "whys".</blockquote>


I was being sarcastic as most homes built today lack the depth for a decent yard. Consider yourself very lucky having a yard that deep and you can actually eat things you grow.



Many older Asians love to plant fruit trees and hard to find vegetables. It would be extremely sad for them to learn about their piece of toxic land.
 
Tustin Base Specific Plan



<a href="http://www.tustinca.org/Commissions/Planning Zoning Documents/MCAS Tustin Specific Plan.pdf">http://www.tustinca.org/Commissions/Planning Zoning Documents/MCAS Tustin Specific Plan.pdf</a>
 
Few attorneys, even those in the environmental field, are technically qualified to make an assessment of environmental hazards. Their focus is on avoiding lawsuits, and people can sue over just about anything -- real or imagined. I wouldn't put much faith in their water cooler talk about how hazardous a site is or was. The assessment is more of an engineering and toxicology task, and I've done quite a few (NOT Tustin). Several months ago, in a separate thread on this topic, I described a process I believe appropriate for someone considering living on the former Tustin MCAS. It was quite long, and I won't repeat it here. But if I've got my copy/paste functions down, you should be able to find it here.



http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewreply/25323/



BTW, in the early 80's and 90's I worked out of an office near the El Toro base. Those clouds of thick black smoke definitely were from training of crash rescue teams. They really cranked up the training in the ramp-up to the (first) Gulf War.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1209548090][quote author="asianinvasian" date=1209544473]So what you are saying is Legacy Park (Tustin) and Great Park (Irvine) are two big conspiracy theories.</blockquote>


Great Park is much worse in term of ground pollution. It was the El Toro Air Base where the heart of the air defense operation was in protecting the West Coast and our Pacific Rim Allies during WWII and through out the era communist threat that resulted in massive maintenance debris and chemical burial. Nothing were ever transported out of site for recycling and neutralization. Black smoke from burning debris were visible for miles even during the early 90's when society was already very concerned for the environment.



Columbus and Legacy were once all on one contiguous piece of land. The original Jamboree used to dead end into Barranca. Jamboree was not yet built in Tustin Ranch until the 80's and even back then it stopped only at the Fwy 5 and not connected to Barranca end of Jamboree.



The pollution spread is a lot easier to visualize when all the legacy and Columbus neighborhoods were once all connected. Black smoke burnings were seen there frequently as well.



Greedy Builders have chased after the Weapon and artillery site at Seal Beach for many years. Explosive were frequently buried into the ground as part of the drills. Bunkers and numerous defensive contours were created to simulate battle conditions as well as the practices of explosions and firing of artillery. This piece of land is extremely volatile and unpredictable due to explosives and buried bombs even the Defense Department prohibits any uses on there. There are guards there to prevent transients and kids stepping into the site.



4 sites were closed by the Clinton Administration in OC and LA. They were Tustin Marine, El Toro Air, Seal Beach Naval Weapon, and Long Beach Naval.</blockquote>


Just in my inbox on my Navy email account:



<a href="http://salem-news.com/articles/july282008/el_toro_3_7-28-08.php">Deadly Toxic Chemicals From Marine Base Threaten Irvine Neighborhoods (VIDEO REPORT)</a>



Also, I was on the NWS Seal Beach last week. I was amused that the IT staff is now housed in an old 60's silo used for the Apollo missions. It was strange walking into an old, rusty building with 9 story high, metal doors and a crane on the top.
 
Some of the comments from the link state that the OC Register and various places have covered this extensively through the years. Is this anything new to worry about? Are we being reminded?



[quote author="caycifish" date=1217454154]



Just in my inbox on my Navy email account:



<a href="http://salem-news.com/articles/july282008/el_toro_3_7-28-08.php">Deadly Toxic Chemicals From Marine Base Threaten Irvine Neighborhoods (VIDEO REPORT)</a>



Also, I was on the NWS Seal Beach last week. I was amused that the IT staff is now housed in an old 60's silo used for the Apollo missions. It was strange walking into an old, rusty building with 9 story high, metal doors and a crane on the top.</blockquote>
 
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