[quote author="MojoJD" date=1255663468][quote author="Nude" date=1255584767][quote author="Stuff It" date=1255577989][quote author="Nude" date=1255576735][quote author="Stuff It" date=1255576214]I think you missed my point - or ignored it.
He would not have received humane treatment. He would have been tortured and then executed. Torturing is not considered humane treatment and in many states/countries execution is also not considered humane treatment.</blockquote>
And you are basing that large assumption on what?</blockquote>
I think recent history speaks for itself: Guantanamo bay</blockquote>
Camp X-ray was set-up not as a place to torture detainees, but as a place to warehouse combatants that were deemed too dangerous to allow to return to the battlefield because a) we couldn't figure out how to legally try them (military vs civic) because they did not fit under the definition of POW in the Geneva convention and b) because they would almost certainly rejoin the enemy ranks if released, and c) their own countries wouldn't take them. also, and this is no minor point, Camp X-Ray wasn't even a vague thought when we were asking for ObL and AQ to be turned over to us. Neither you, nor anyone else, has any idea what would have happened had they been turned over en masse to the American military, but I suspect that they would have been held and tried at the Hague, if not in NYC.</blockquote>
Incorrect, it was stated that they would be tried on US soil for 9-11 related actions. And who cares if it wasn't set up to torture (<em>allegedly</em>)... that is what ended up happening. The rest of your statements about x-ray "not even being a vague thought" are pure speculation - if they were caught in 2004, they would have UNDOUBTEDLY been detained there.
Look, I'm proud to be an American, but our leaders have done a lot of terrible things and broken our national "code" of generally accepted principles <em>behind our backs</em> in the name of:
(a) perceived need
(b) seeking increased personal influence
(c) appeasement of key constituents (see B)
(d) fear of not being "strong on national security"
(e) objectively utilitarian perceptions on "helping Americans" (utilitarian in the academic/traditional definition)
Its WRONG, but it happens. You dont need to keep making excuses for these bozos on both sides of the fence. Just call it like it is.</blockquote>
According to wiki, we're both wrong:
<blockquote>Camp X-Ray was a temporary detention facility at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp of Joint Task Force Guantanamo on the U.S. Naval Base in Guant?namo Bay, Cuba. The first twenty captives arrived at Guantanamo on January 11 2002.[1][2] It was named Camp X-Ray because various temporary camps in the station were named sequentially from the beginning and then from the end of the NATO phonetic alphabet. The legal status of detainees at the camp has been a significant source of controversy, ultimately reaching the United States Supreme Court.
As of April 29, 2002, the official Camp X-Ray was closed and all prisoners were transferred to Camp Delta. However, the term "Camp X-Ray" has come to be used as a synonym for the entire facility where prisoners from the war in Afghanistan are detained.
[edit] Background
Detainees upon arrival at Camp X-Ray, January 2002
Care of detainees at Camp X-Ray was handled by Joint Task Force 160 (JTF-160), while interrogations were conducted by Joint Task Force 170 (JTF-170).[3][4][5][6] JTF-160 was under the command of Marine Brigadier General Michael R. Lehnert until March 2002, when he was replaced by Brigadier General Rick Baccus. Since Camp X-Ray's closure and the subsequent opening of Camp Delta, JTF-160 and 170 have been combined into Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO).
In accordance with U.S. military and Geneva Convention doctrine on prisoner treatment, soldiers guarding the detainees were housed in tents with living conditions "not markedly different" from that of the prisoners while the permanent facilities at Camp Delta were under construction.[7] This camp was one location where allegations of torture of the prisoners have been made. [8][9]
Camp X-Ray <strong>was originally built to house "Excludables" in the mid 1990's</strong> when castro allowed any Cuban wishing to, to cross through the Cuban minefields and enter the base. Excludables were held in camp X-ray under post 37 before being sent back to Cuba. Excludables included-trouble makers in the regular camps where CASs - Cuban Asylem Seekers - were being processed to travel to the USA, for example AIDS victims, Rapists, and Murderers. (The USA were at the time allowed access to Cuban records to process these people). Over 100,000 CAS people were processed in the mid 1990s and allowed to enter the USA.</blockquote>
I'm not making excuses for anyone. And you can make any claim you want about what "might" have happened in 2004, but that wasn't the question I was answering which makes what would have happened 3 years after we asked the Taliban to turn over ObL and AQ pointless speculation.
My point was that finding a place to torture people was not the reason for the existence camps @ Gitmo and that events that occured after the commencement of war in Afghanistan cannot logically be used to deduce what would have occurred had they delivered him as requested.
As for torture during interrogation... while I support the ethical treatment of people captured on the field of combat, that support is conditional on reciprocal treatment. Targeting civilians earns an automatic exception to ethical treatment. I'm not advocating we begin targeting civilians in return, but I am not inclined to conform to the Geneva Convention either.
