Testing at Portola High School
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Because its not the first time the publication has put out hoopla. Im all for truth but its like only watching fox news.
I actually do not disagree with you on this. When money is involved we always have to question people's agenda. The fact that toxic materials were found in and near the school is an undisputed fact. I question the lack of transparency and the decisions not to do further testing, however.
Common sense tells me that if chemicals were found in multiple different places near the school, then there is a good chance we will find more somewhere else.
We have a previous superfund site with plenty of evidence that toxic materials were dumped there. There are lawsuits from previous military personal who witnessed chemical dumping and were exposed to these chemicals, we have a known plume of TCE under a large portion of Irvine from this base, and now we have chemicals found on this high school. I think everyone involved with this high school and housing development have a duty to provide some evidence of safety simply because of the history of this land. The problem is that it seems like things are being kept hush hush.
Although I know that Argan may have an agenda, his push right now is for more transparency. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with making things more transparent, even if there is some ulterior motive. It can only benefit the residents... although this can certainly damage the developers. Just my 2 cents.
Irvine the new Flint 2.0?
I with you on this one. Toxic high and plume cloud doesn't sound good. Pass on Beacon Park. I was really hoping for some deals too since sales have been slow.
Um, it's on the website http://iusd.org/district_services/facilities_planning_and_construction/1HighSchoolNo.5DraftSEIR.html
So, are we assuming that in 1940s, when people were actually working on the base, breathing that air full of toxins as they were dumping it in real time, all died horrible death in few short years and there is no record of this big screw up? And, now 60 some years laters, those toxins remain as active or even more than they were back then?
You can make your own assumptions based on the little known facts that we have. However the facts are that the land used to be superfund site and toxic chemicals are known to have been spilled there. The soil reports from the high school and the large plume of TCE under Irvine is evidence of chemicals used on base.
Exposure to harmful attacks on the human body by chemicals, radiation, etc, etc rarely lead to immediate death. Rather you have a slow and steady decline in bodily functions which lead to disability and often times death later (or earlier) in life. Mainly the effects are cumulative and so the more exposure the worse the effects. And thus it is often difficult to apply a cause and effect relationship to many offending factors. However there are extensive research and studies that suggest these chemicals used and found on the base are known pathogens and carcinogens. Hence, you can come to your own conclusions.
For me the risk of my kids being exposed is not worth the benefits of living in that area. Kids are more susceptible to effects of these toxins than adults. I just do not see any benefit as you can buy another nice home and send your kids to another nice Irvine high. again just my 2 cents.
You are joking right? So you read an article on the LA times and read some wikipedia and now you are an expert on toxic chemicals? Also you assume I have limited knowledge on this subject matter? I think my time is wasted on you. Like I said, make your own conclusions. Let me just say one last thing on this thread... PCBs do not mainly cause rashes... It has effects on literally every organ system. Perhaps you should come into this conversation a little better informed. Thank you for the chuckle.
You are still waiting for the right opportunity, correct? By right, I mean price drops in Irvine. Would you say you have incentives for reduced demand?
I'll admit, as a buyer in BP, I am incentivized to discount toxin scare. And, I genuinely believe that its just a scare, hence my purchase.
Now you and I are not going to affect any trends. It's just that we are wired differently to perceive risks.
AAHHH I see now why you are so quick to discredit any of this. Unlike you, I really have no financial motives for this. I have never considered BP, PS nor PP due to location but also the potential toxic issues. I think I have mentioned this before... even if this area dropped 50% in price, I still wouldnt buy there.
My intentions were not to affect any trends but rather to raise awareness since many are either unaware or apathetic.
I agree with you. I think we are wired differently to perceive risk. I do believe I have more awareness and knowledge on the subject matter of toxic chemicals than you and probably most of the people on this current blog. Thus when I read that GP used to be a superfund site, there are chemical founds on the high school, etc, then I begin to think of the potential dangers.
The real question is how much contamination is there and how will it affect health? In all honesty, no one can answer this question. To me this is the scariest thing- the unknown. No bozo from the EPA can tell you this land is safe with certainty. Of course they will say it anyway. Trust me on this. Just because some bozo from the OC register or LA times reports the land is safe, it doesnt mean the land is safe. They just report what they are told. Sure, you are thinking that we can never know if any plot of land is safe. I agree with you. The only difference here is that we are talking about a previous superfund site with toxic chemicals being dug up randomly at a high school site, not some random empty plot of land with no history.
Even if this land was super contaminated you are not going to see 100% of people coming down with cancer in next few years. Some people are super resilient and may not have symptoms, some may only have mild symptoms, other may have serious symptoms and others yet have have super complicated problems and others may eventually come down with life threatening illness. These things may be seen from weeks to even over a lifetime. In fact there are studies coming out showing that these toxic chemicals could be causing generational problems so that your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren could be harmed.
I am just being the devils advocate here since everyone here seems so dismissive about this.
J
jmoney74
Guest
hello said:jmoney74 said:iacrenter said:gasman said:jmoney74 said:
Talk Irvine. jk >
I have yet to see the "other side" in the media. I believe the "other side" she is referring to are the respective camps moving forward with the project (city of irvine, five points, IUSD, etc.).
There is a lot of incentive for the "other side" not to delay the school: pressure to decrease crowding at IUSD, potential sales loss at GP, cost of additional testing / delayed construction.
You mean.. the gubbermint? I suppose.. but why is this the only publication that runs against it? seems like if there is any remote credibility.. OC Register would be all over this.. you would think one investigator would be all over this (be a nice boost in their career).
This is not a one sided fight. The fact that argan is one one side pushing for an agenda suggests there is another side pushing against his agenda. The groups that have something to lose are IUSD and Five points community.
I am not sure why your so focused on the OC register not covering this. The absence of an article from a specific publication proves nothing... nor disproves anything.
Because its not the first time the publication has put out hoopla. Im all for truth but its like only watching fox news.
jmoney74 said:hello said:jmoney74 said:iacrenter said:gasman said:jmoney74 said:
Talk Irvine. jk >
I have yet to see the "other side" in the media. I believe the "other side" she is referring to are the respective camps moving forward with the project (city of irvine, five points, IUSD, etc.).
There is a lot of incentive for the "other side" not to delay the school: pressure to decrease crowding at IUSD, potential sales loss at GP, cost of additional testing / delayed construction.
You mean.. the gubbermint? I suppose.. but why is this the only publication that runs against it? seems like if there is any remote credibility.. OC Register would be all over this.. you would think one investigator would be all over this (be a nice boost in their career).
This is not a one sided fight. The fact that argan is one one side pushing for an agenda suggests there is another side pushing against his agenda. The groups that have something to lose are IUSD and Five points community.
I am not sure why your so focused on the OC register not covering this. The absence of an article from a specific publication proves nothing... nor disproves anything.
Because its not the first time the publication has put out hoopla. Im all for truth but its like only watching fox news.
I actually do not disagree with you on this. When money is involved we always have to question people's agenda. The fact that toxic materials were found in and near the school is an undisputed fact. I question the lack of transparency and the decisions not to do further testing, however.
Common sense tells me that if chemicals were found in multiple different places near the school, then there is a good chance we will find more somewhere else.
We have a previous superfund site with plenty of evidence that toxic materials were dumped there. There are lawsuits from previous military personal who witnessed chemical dumping and were exposed to these chemicals, we have a known plume of TCE under a large portion of Irvine from this base, and now we have chemicals found on this high school. I think everyone involved with this high school and housing development have a duty to provide some evidence of safety simply because of the history of this land. The problem is that it seems like things are being kept hush hush.
Although I know that Argan may have an agenda, his push right now is for more transparency. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with making things more transparent, even if there is some ulterior motive. It can only benefit the residents... although this can certainly damage the developers. Just my 2 cents.
hello said:jmoney74 said:hello said:jmoney74 said:iacrenter said:gasman said:jmoney74 said:
Talk Irvine. jk >
I have yet to see the "other side" in the media. I believe the "other side" she is referring to are the respective camps moving forward with the project (city of irvine, five points, IUSD, etc.).
There is a lot of incentive for the "other side" not to delay the school: pressure to decrease crowding at IUSD, potential sales loss at GP, cost of additional testing / delayed construction.
You mean.. the gubbermint? I suppose.. but why is this the only publication that runs against it? seems like if there is any remote credibility.. OC Register would be all over this.. you would think one investigator would be all over this (be a nice boost in their career).
This is not a one sided fight. The fact that argan is one one side pushing for an agenda suggests there is another side pushing against his agenda. The groups that have something to lose are IUSD and Five points community.
I am not sure why your so focused on the OC register not covering this. The absence of an article from a specific publication proves nothing... nor disproves anything.
Because its not the first time the publication has put out hoopla. Im all for truth but its like only watching fox news.
I actually do not disagree with you on this. When money is involved we always have to question people's agenda. The fact that toxic materials were found in and near the school is an undisputed fact. I question the lack of transparency and the decisions not to do further testing, however.
Common sense tells me that if chemicals were found in multiple different places near the school, then there is a good chance we will find more somewhere else.
We have a previous superfund site with plenty of evidence that toxic materials were dumped there. There are lawsuits from previous military personal who witnessed chemical dumping and were exposed to these chemicals, we have a known plume of TCE under a large portion of Irvine from this base, and now we have chemicals found on this high school. I think everyone involved with this high school and housing development have a duty to provide some evidence of safety simply because of the history of this land. The problem is that it seems like things are being kept hush hush.
Although I know that Argan may have an agenda, his push right now is for more transparency. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with making things more transparent, even if there is some ulterior motive. It can only benefit the residents... although this can certainly damage the developers. Just my 2 cents.
Irvine the new Flint 2.0?
YellowFever
New member
.
J
jmoney74
Guest
We need to hire Erin Brochovich.. she is busy with the Porter ranch stuff.. but I'm sure she can take on two things! 
TRNeighbor.com
New member
I agree w/ Jmoney; if there is a story here, then where are all the 'Investigative Reporters'? This would be national news if there is some sort of 'cover up' from local, state, and even federal officials. Also, why would they propose a Veterans cemetery on contaminated soil (please don't say because they are already deceased).
If someone has a more reputable source about dangerous levels of toxic soil remaining in the GP/PS areas, please post...I'd be love to read the facts. The only negatives I can find seem to be coming from 'Irvine Community News and Views' and 'Talk Irvine'.
If someone has a more reputable source about dangerous levels of toxic soil remaining in the GP/PS areas, please post...I'd be love to read the facts. The only negatives I can find seem to be coming from 'Irvine Community News and Views' and 'Talk Irvine'.
Irvine or Bust
New member
MagicJ1zz said:
I with you on this one. Toxic high and plume cloud doesn't sound good. Pass on Beacon Park. I was really hoping for some deals too since sales have been slow.
hello said:
Um, it's on the website http://iusd.org/district_services/facilities_planning_and_construction/1HighSchoolNo.5DraftSEIR.html
Cornflakes
Active member
hello said:
So, are we assuming that in 1940s, when people were actually working on the base, breathing that air full of toxins as they were dumping it in real time, all died horrible death in few short years and there is no record of this big screw up? And, now 60 some years laters, those toxins remain as active or even more than they were back then?
Cornflakes
Active member
(Hopefully) Some unbiased, scientific data points on the toxins.
Start with 2014 article in LA times. http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/27/local/la-me-0128-el-toro-20140128
Some 600 acres of land left uncleaned.
From that article:
El Toro was named to the Superfund list in 1990 because of contamination caused by decades of aircraft maintenance and repair, which left the soil laced with compounds known as polychlorinated biphenyls, or PCBs. A plume of groundwater tainted with trichloroethylene and other hazardous compounds migrated more than three miles from the base beneath Irvine. But wells in the area are used for irrigation, not as a source of drinking water.
Some facts on the chemicals itself:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl#Health_effects
Exposure and excretion
In general individuals are exposed to PCBs overwhelmingly through food, much less so by breathing contaminated air, and least by skin contact. Once exposed, some PCBs may change to other chemicals inside the body. These chemicals or unchanged PCBs can be excreted in feces or may remain in a person's body for years, with half lives estimated at 10?15 years.[29] PCBs collect in body fat and milk fat.[30] PCB's biomagnify up the food web and are present in fish and waterfowl of contaminated aquifers.[31] Infants are exposed to PCBs through breast milk or by intrauterine exposure through transplacental transfer of PCBs [30] and are at the top of the food chain.[32]:249ff
Signs and symptoms
Humans
The most commonly observed health effects in people exposed to extremely high levels of PCBs are skin conditions, such as chloracne and rashes?.
And, another chemical mentioned above:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene#Human_exposure
Some are exposed to TCE through contaminated drinking water. With a specific gravity greater than 1, trichloroethylene can be present as a dense nonaqueous phase liquid if sufficient quantities are spilled in the environment. Another significant source of vapor exposure in Superfund sites that had contaminated groundwater, such as the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant, was by showering. TCE readily volatilizes out of hot water and into the air. Long, hot showers would then volatilize more TCE into the air. In a home closed tightly to conserve the cost of heating and cooling, these vapors would then recirculate.
I highly recommend reading up all the link to be better informed.
Start with 2014 article in LA times. http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/27/local/la-me-0128-el-toro-20140128
Some 600 acres of land left uncleaned.
From that article:
El Toro was named to the Superfund list in 1990 because of contamination caused by decades of aircraft maintenance and repair, which left the soil laced with compounds known as polychlorinated biphenyls, or PCBs. A plume of groundwater tainted with trichloroethylene and other hazardous compounds migrated more than three miles from the base beneath Irvine. But wells in the area are used for irrigation, not as a source of drinking water.
Some facts on the chemicals itself:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl#Health_effects
Exposure and excretion
In general individuals are exposed to PCBs overwhelmingly through food, much less so by breathing contaminated air, and least by skin contact. Once exposed, some PCBs may change to other chemicals inside the body. These chemicals or unchanged PCBs can be excreted in feces or may remain in a person's body for years, with half lives estimated at 10?15 years.[29] PCBs collect in body fat and milk fat.[30] PCB's biomagnify up the food web and are present in fish and waterfowl of contaminated aquifers.[31] Infants are exposed to PCBs through breast milk or by intrauterine exposure through transplacental transfer of PCBs [30] and are at the top of the food chain.[32]:249ff
Signs and symptoms
Humans
The most commonly observed health effects in people exposed to extremely high levels of PCBs are skin conditions, such as chloracne and rashes?.
And, another chemical mentioned above:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene#Human_exposure
Some are exposed to TCE through contaminated drinking water. With a specific gravity greater than 1, trichloroethylene can be present as a dense nonaqueous phase liquid if sufficient quantities are spilled in the environment. Another significant source of vapor exposure in Superfund sites that had contaminated groundwater, such as the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant, was by showering. TCE readily volatilizes out of hot water and into the air. Long, hot showers would then volatilize more TCE into the air. In a home closed tightly to conserve the cost of heating and cooling, these vapors would then recirculate.
I highly recommend reading up all the link to be better informed.
Cornflakes said:
You can make your own assumptions based on the little known facts that we have. However the facts are that the land used to be superfund site and toxic chemicals are known to have been spilled there. The soil reports from the high school and the large plume of TCE under Irvine is evidence of chemicals used on base.
Exposure to harmful attacks on the human body by chemicals, radiation, etc, etc rarely lead to immediate death. Rather you have a slow and steady decline in bodily functions which lead to disability and often times death later (or earlier) in life. Mainly the effects are cumulative and so the more exposure the worse the effects. And thus it is often difficult to apply a cause and effect relationship to many offending factors. However there are extensive research and studies that suggest these chemicals used and found on the base are known pathogens and carcinogens. Hence, you can come to your own conclusions.
For me the risk of my kids being exposed is not worth the benefits of living in that area. Kids are more susceptible to effects of these toxins than adults. I just do not see any benefit as you can buy another nice home and send your kids to another nice Irvine high. again just my 2 cents.
Cornflakes said:
You are joking right? So you read an article on the LA times and read some wikipedia and now you are an expert on toxic chemicals? Also you assume I have limited knowledge on this subject matter? I think my time is wasted on you. Like I said, make your own conclusions. Let me just say one last thing on this thread... PCBs do not mainly cause rashes... It has effects on literally every organ system. Perhaps you should come into this conversation a little better informed. Thank you for the chuckle.
Cornflakes
Active member
@hello
Do you plan to build swimming pool and fill it with ground water? If so, I highly recommend staying out at least 5 miles from BP. Just to be safe you know.
Do you plan to build swimming pool and fill it with ground water? If so, I highly recommend staying out at least 5 miles from BP. Just to be safe you know.
Cornflakes
Active member
I am glad I could put a smile on your face.hello said:
You are still waiting for the right opportunity, correct? By right, I mean price drops in Irvine. Would you say you have incentives for reduced demand?
I'll admit, as a buyer in BP, I am incentivized to discount toxin scare. And, I genuinely believe that its just a scare, hence my purchase.
Now you and I are not going to affect any trends. It's just that we are wired differently to perceive risks.
Cornflakes said:I am glad I could put a smile on your face.hello said:
You are still waiting for the right opportunity, correct? By right, I mean price drops in Irvine. Would you say you have incentives for reduced demand?
I'll admit, as a buyer in BP, I am incentivized to discount toxin scare. And, I genuinely believe that its just a scare, hence my purchase.
Now you and I are not going to affect any trends. It's just that we are wired differently to perceive risks.
AAHHH I see now why you are so quick to discredit any of this. Unlike you, I really have no financial motives for this. I have never considered BP, PS nor PP due to location but also the potential toxic issues. I think I have mentioned this before... even if this area dropped 50% in price, I still wouldnt buy there.
My intentions were not to affect any trends but rather to raise awareness since many are either unaware or apathetic.
I agree with you. I think we are wired differently to perceive risk. I do believe I have more awareness and knowledge on the subject matter of toxic chemicals than you and probably most of the people on this current blog. Thus when I read that GP used to be a superfund site, there are chemical founds on the high school, etc, then I begin to think of the potential dangers.
The real question is how much contamination is there and how will it affect health? In all honesty, no one can answer this question. To me this is the scariest thing- the unknown. No bozo from the EPA can tell you this land is safe with certainty. Of course they will say it anyway. Trust me on this. Just because some bozo from the OC register or LA times reports the land is safe, it doesnt mean the land is safe. They just report what they are told. Sure, you are thinking that we can never know if any plot of land is safe. I agree with you. The only difference here is that we are talking about a previous superfund site with toxic chemicals being dug up randomly at a high school site, not some random empty plot of land with no history.
Even if this land was super contaminated you are not going to see 100% of people coming down with cancer in next few years. Some people are super resilient and may not have symptoms, some may only have mild symptoms, other may have serious symptoms and others yet have have super complicated problems and others may eventually come down with life threatening illness. These things may be seen from weeks to even over a lifetime. In fact there are studies coming out showing that these toxic chemicals could be causing generational problems so that your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren could be harmed.
I am just being the devils advocate here since everyone here seems so dismissive about this.
J
jmoney74
Guest
TI WARS
in all honesty.. I'd like to know the truth as well.. since my kids will eventually go there. However, I can't take this publication seriously.. they've printed mumbo jumbo in the past. I'm just saying, if there was some remote possibility of a cover up and this place has uncovered some facts.. then I would think major publications would be on it too.
in all honesty.. I'd like to know the truth as well.. since my kids will eventually go there. However, I can't take this publication seriously.. they've printed mumbo jumbo in the past. I'm just saying, if there was some remote possibility of a cover up and this place has uncovered some facts.. then I would think major publications would be on it too.