Tesla Solar Panels Price Cut

[Irvinecommuter]

Call it what you want ROI or break even analysis. Ask the TI members that got solar or researching solar. They know what I?m talking about.

When new home prices go up for no reason, you don't look at ROI.

So when solar is getting added to a new home (at additional cost), why would you consider ROI?

For existing homes, and you do kitchen/bath renovation, ROI is only considered if you sell and then even at that, you have no idea if it was due to appreciation or whatever.

If you do solar, not only do you protect yourself against rising utility costs, but it also allows you to save money on gas consumption if you are also driving an EV. To me that's a better "ROI"... and you can run your AC more often.

Because solar is a reduction of utility use, I'm not sure you can apply just an ROI argument to it.

You mean like me? 

Also...it seems like everyone who is considering/looking at solar power found it to be a good value/proposition for a number of reasons.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Even break even doesn?t really apply.

The difference is utility.

Do you do a break even analysis when you install a tankless water heater, an RO water system or a new AC unit? When you replace your roof or do termite service? People spend thousands on big screen/audio/entertainment system and they aren?t calculating when that will get paid off.

Most people making the choice for solar is because it?s cheaper than what Edison is charging (sun is free) and it allows them to use more electricity for EVs, AC and bitcoin mining servers.

The big tipper for me is EVs. 5 years ago wasn?t prime time but now that every automaker is going electric you have to think about reducing charging costs.

 

[zubs]

If you are considering solar, you guys should really use energysage.com
I have 6 solar companies fighting each other to get my business, and it's so easy to compare each one and play them off each other.

 

[Cares]

If you are considering solar, you guys should really use energysage.com
I have 6 solar companies fighting each other to get my business, and it's so easy to compare each one and play them off each other.

Yep just like negotiating with car sales people. Call dealerships back and forth until you get the price you want. You can even tell them you have a quote at $x/watt and see if they will budge. Some will ask for a copy of the quote while others might budge a little.

Tesla I learned will not price match anymore since they lowered their pricing.

I'm moving forward with Solar Optimum.

 

[zubs]

Do you know of a car website that does the same thing as energysage?

 

[Cares]

Do you know of a car website that does the same thing as energysage?

I typically start with Costco pricing. Take that price and reduce it more (something reasonable) and start calling dealers. You can also use TrueCar to see "market average" and lowball that number and use it as your negotiation base. Just tell them "I'm ready to buy today and I want the best price. This is the price I have now can you beat it?"

I usually start by calling dealerships that I likely won't ever go to since they are so far to get their pricing. Slowly work my way geographically closer to me.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Do you know of a car website that does the same thing as energysage?

I start with invoice and take like 15% off of that to start.  I then email every dealership in SoCal...cut and paste.  Takes like 15 minutes. 

Then I get a few offers and start playing them off of each other.

 

[zovall]

It's been 3 days since I dove into this solar power rabbit hole.  Here are the results:

SUNRUN: $14,600/6,090 WATTS = $2.40/WATT (21 PANELS (290 WATT) SOLAREDGE STRING INVERTER W/OPTIMIZER) ~ annual output 9,986
SOLARMAX: $16,198/8,580 WATTS = $1.89/WATT (26 PANELS (330 WATT) SOLAREDGE STRING INVERTER W/OPTIMIZER)~ annual output 13,198
SOLARMAX: $17,417/8,580 WATTS = $2.03/WATT (26 PANELS (330 WATT) ENPHASE MICROINVERTER) ~ annual output 13,198
SOLAR OPTIMUM: $16,336/8,580 WATTS = $1.90/WATT (26 PANELS (330 WATT) ENPHASE MICROINVERTER) ~ annual output 13,513

This is great info, thanks for sharing! I think you mentioned in an earlier post that the quotes were after accounting for the 30% tax credit.

I still stand by what I wrote a few years back:https://www.talkirvine.com/index.php/topic,14007.msg282308.html#msg282308

I paid $2.75/watt (gross, pre-tax credit cost) in 2015 for 285W SolarWorld panels and SolarEdge inverter/optimizers and the install was done by Solar Optimum.

I've had friends recently get installs done for $2.60-$2.65/watt (pre-tax credit) for 315W LG panels and a SolarEdge inverter via Aikyum (https://www.yelp.com/biz/aikyum-solar-irvine)

 

[eyephone]

I already said that the rent I was asking was at a premium already. Like I mentioned I rented at a price that breaks even PITI with only 25% equity. In the Irvine market, I have more than 50% equity in my home and I wouldn't be able to rent break even. So my tenants "low balling" me is a misnomer. They low balled what I was asking but they are still paying high rent.

Inherently it adds value to the home. The only question is if the market is willing to pay a premium for it. Probably not. If you were comparing 2 homes that were alike though, I would easily go for the home with solar even paying a premium. Especially if I can roll the cost of it into my home financing.

A battery does very little in southern California. Grid reliability is pretty high so it takes out the value proposition for many about having redundancy. It leaves the only true benefit for load shifting. Unfortunately with new SCE TOU rates the difference between peak and off-peak is so small that load shifting has small marginal benefit. So I don't know where you got the thought that you have to have a backup battery for maximum effectiveness. Solar panels by themselves are very cost effective alone.

Calmatters Article:Southern California Edison new rate plan jeopardizes renewable energy


?California?s power companies have rolled out a ?time-of-use? system designed to promote energy use during the hours where clean electricity is abundant due to overproduction by solar systems and when energy usage by air conditioners and home electronics are at their peak. This means less energy wasted and more value delivered to solar homeowners.

For SCE customers who have solar energy, this means they currently enjoy peak time on Monday through Friday, from 2 p.m.-8 p.m. During these times, the cost of energy from the grid is the highest, but so is the amount that SCE will pay homeowners if they overproduce. Because these are generally the sunniest hours of the day, solar homeowners tend to come out ahead.

This is all about to change this month when these peak times will be pushed back to 4 p.m. through 9 p.m., a less efficient window of time for solar.

For solar homeowners, this means fewer opportunities to sell their energy surpluses at the best price and a bigger chunk of the day they in which they will pay higher costs for energy used when solar systems are in the dark or less efficient.

This will make home solar systems a less attractive investment at a time when we need to increase the adoption of renewable energy on a mass scale, especially if we seek to meet the state?s new renewables mandate.?
https://calmatters.org/articles/com...n-new-rate-plan-jeopardizes-renewable-energy/

What are your thoughts?

 

[zubs]

To compensate, I went from a 21 solar panel unit to a 30 solar panel unit.  This cost about $5000 more after 30% tax credit.
These panels supposedly will now generate 16,000 kWh per annum.  I only used 9,300 kWh last year.


21 * 330 = 6,930 system (this system generates 10,000 kWh in CA weather)
30 * 330 = 9,900 system (this system generates 16,000 kWh in CA weather)


Why leave all that unused real estate on my rooftop?
This is like recycling or using less gas...a public good.  ya'll should thank me.


I'm still salty that sunrun kid told me I only needed a 21 panel system when I wanted more.
Like most people after getting solar, you will use more electricity.  That true up bill from edison at end of the year should be $0.  However, I will still pay about $120 to edison per annum for maintenance.

 

[woodburyowner]

To compensate, I went from a 21 solar panel unit to a 30 solar panel unit.  This cost about $5000 more after 30% tax credit.
These panels supposedly will now generate 16,000 kWh per annum.  I only used 9,300 kWh last year.


21 * 330 = 6,930 system (this system generates 10,000 kWh in CA weather)
30 * 330 = 9,900 system (this system generates 16,000 kWh in CA weather)


Why leave all that unused real estate on my rooftop?
This is like recycling or using less gas...a public good.  ya'll should thank me.


I'm still salty that sunrun kid told me I only needed a 21 panel system when I wanted more.
Like most people after getting solar, you will use more electricity.  That true up bill from edison at end of the year should be $0.  However, I will still pay about $120 to edison per annum for maintenance.

Does the math work out though?  You spent an extra $5k to get a larger system which allows you to sell excess kwh back to SCE @ .03/kwh.  $5k with a long term investment horizon (ie. 100% equities) would yield ~7-8% / yr.  My calculation shows you would have been better dumping the $5k in the market.

 

[zubs]

Yes it's not for financial gain.  It's to help the community and to let me blast my AC 24/7.  Mostly to blast my AC 24/7.  I did think a happy medium would be 26 panels, but then I got into the MORE POWER!!! mind set... GIVE ME MORE POWER!!!...so then yeah I might get a plugin for the future...shrug.

 

[Kings]

I already said that the rent I was asking was at a premium already. Like I mentioned I rented at a price that breaks even PITI with only 25% equity. In the Irvine market, I have more than 50% equity in my home and I wouldn't be able to rent break even. So my tenants "low balling" me is a misnomer. They low balled what I was asking but they are still paying high rent.

Inherently it adds value to the home. The only question is if the market is willing to pay a premium for it. Probably not. If you were comparing 2 homes that were alike though, I would easily go for the home with solar even paying a premium. Especially if I can roll the cost of it into my home financing.

A battery does very little in southern California. Grid reliability is pretty high so it takes out the value proposition for many about having redundancy. It leaves the only true benefit for load shifting. Unfortunately with new SCE TOU rates the difference between peak and off-peak is so small that load shifting has small marginal benefit. So I don't know where you got the thought that you have to have a backup battery for maximum effectiveness. Solar panels by themselves are very cost effective alone.

Calmatters Article:Southern California Edison new rate plan jeopardizes renewable energy


?California?s power companies have rolled out a ?time-of-use? system designed to promote energy use during the hours where clean electricity is abundant due to overproduction by solar systems and when energy usage by air conditioners and home electronics are at their peak. This means less energy wasted and more value delivered to solar homeowners.

For SCE customers who have solar energy, this means they currently enjoy peak time on Monday through Friday, from 2 p.m.-8 p.m. During these times, the cost of energy from the grid is the highest, but so is the amount that SCE will pay homeowners if they overproduce. Because these are generally the sunniest hours of the day, solar homeowners tend to come out ahead.

This is all about to change this month when these peak times will be pushed back to 4 p.m. through 9 p.m., a less efficient window of time for solar.

For solar homeowners, this means fewer opportunities to sell their energy surpluses at the best price and a bigger chunk of the day they in which they will pay higher costs for energy used when solar systems are in the dark or less efficient.

This will make home solar systems a less attractive investment at a time when we need to increase the adoption of renewable energy on a mass scale, especially if we seek to meet the state?s new renewables mandate.?
https://calmatters.org/articles/com...n-new-rate-plan-jeopardizes-renewable-energy/

What are your thoughts?

install your system on west-facing roof (instead of south-facing) to optimize nem credits

 

[Cares]

To compensate, I went from a 21 solar panel unit to a 30 solar panel unit.  This cost about $5000 more after 30% tax credit.
These panels supposedly will now generate 16,000 kWh per annum.  I only used 9,300 kWh last year.


21 * 330 = 6,930 system (this system generates 10,000 kWh in CA weather)
30 * 330 = 9,900 system (this system generates 16,000 kWh in CA weather)


Why leave all that unused real estate on my rooftop?
This is like recycling or using less gas...a public good.  ya'll should thank me.


I'm still salty that sunrun kid told me I only needed a 21 panel system when I wanted more.
Like most people after getting solar, you will use more electricity.  That true up bill from edison at end of the year should be $0.  However, I will still pay about $120 to edison per annum for maintenance.

Does the math work out though?  You spent an extra $5k to get a larger system which allows you to sell excess kwh back to SCE @ .03/kwh.  $5k with a long term investment horizon (ie. 100% equities) would yield ~7-8% / yr.  My calculation shows you would have been better dumping the $5k in the market.

You cannot sell back to SCE anymore. You just generate credit. Over-generation is washed out after 12 months.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

To compensate, I went from a 21 solar panel unit to a 30 solar panel unit.  This cost about $5000 more after 30% tax credit.
These panels supposedly will now generate 16,000 kWh per annum.  I only used 9,300 kWh last year.


21 * 330 = 6,930 system (this system generates 10,000 kWh in CA weather)
30 * 330 = 9,900 system (this system generates 16,000 kWh in CA weather)


Why leave all that unused real estate on my rooftop?
This is like recycling or using less gas...a public good.  ya'll should thank me.


I'm still salty that sunrun kid told me I only needed a 21 panel system when I wanted more.
Like most people after getting solar, you will use more electricity.  That true up bill from edison at end of the year should be $0.  However, I will still pay about $120 to edison per annum for maintenance.

Does the math work out though?  You spent an extra $5k to get a larger system which allows you to sell excess kwh back to SCE @ .03/kwh.  $5k with a long term investment horizon (ie. 100% equities) would yield ~7-8% / yr.  My calculation shows you would have been better dumping the $5k in the market.

You cannot sell back to SCE anymore. You just generate credit. Over-generation is washed out after 12 months.

That's why the battery backup is good. 

 

[Cares]

To compensate, I went from a 21 solar panel unit to a 30 solar panel unit.  This cost about $5000 more after 30% tax credit.
These panels supposedly will now generate 16,000 kWh per annum.  I only used 9,300 kWh last year.


21 * 330 = 6,930 system (this system generates 10,000 kWh in CA weather)
30 * 330 = 9,900 system (this system generates 16,000 kWh in CA weather)


Why leave all that unused real estate on my rooftop?
This is like recycling or using less gas...a public good.  ya'll should thank me.


I'm still salty that sunrun kid told me I only needed a 21 panel system when I wanted more.
Like most people after getting solar, you will use more electricity.  That true up bill from edison at end of the year should be $0.  However, I will still pay about $120 to edison per annum for maintenance.

Does the math work out though?  You spent an extra $5k to get a larger system which allows you to sell excess kwh back to SCE @ .03/kwh.  $5k with a long term investment horizon (ie. 100% equities) would yield ~7-8% / yr.  My calculation shows you would have been better dumping the $5k in the market.

You cannot sell back to SCE anymore. You just generate credit. Over-generation is washed out after 12 months.

That's why the battery backup is good.

Or sizing your system correctly and not deliberately returning to over generate is the best way.

 

[daedalus]

The battery in a Tesla car is so much bigger than the battery in a power wall.  Surely the geniuses at Tesla can figure out a way to allow an owner to connect the car to an inverter wired into the main panel, to power the house off the car.  The hardware and logic required to ensure things are hooked up properly before turning on the juice are seemingly pretty basic.  The car motors consume hundreds of kilowatts, whereas a house might consume 15kw with the electric dryer, the electric water heater and the central AC all turned on, in addition to all the usual stuff.  The cars already have the capacity to move this much amperage.  Granted, you would need a pretty beefy inverter for 15kw, but if all heat comes from gas, it wouldn't take a very expensive unit to provide the rest of the energy needed.

 

[eyephone]

The battery in a Tesla car is so much bigger than the battery in a power wall.  Surely the geniuses at Tesla can figure out a way to allow an owner to connect the car to an inverter wired into the main panel, to power the house off the car.  The hardware and logic required to ensure things are hooked up properly before turning on the juice are seemingly pretty basic.  The car motors consume hundreds of kilowatts, whereas a house might consume 15kw with the electric dryer, the electric water heater and the central AC all turned on, in addition to all the usual stuff.  The cars already have the capacity to move this much amperage.  Granted, you would need a pretty beefy inverter for 15kw, but if all heat comes from gas, it wouldn't take a very expensive unit to provide the rest of the energy needed.

Liability.

 

[eyephone]

To compensate, I went from a 21 solar panel unit to a 30 solar panel unit.  This cost about $5000 more after 30% tax credit.
These panels supposedly will now generate 16,000 kWh per annum.  I only used 9,300 kWh last year.


21 * 330 = 6,930 system (this system generates 10,000 kWh in CA weather)
30 * 330 = 9,900 system (this system generates 16,000 kWh in CA weather)


Why leave all that unused real estate on my rooftop?
This is like recycling or using less gas...a public good.  ya'll should thank me.


I'm still salty that sunrun kid told me I only needed a 21 panel system when I wanted more.
Like most people after getting solar, you will use more electricity.  That true up bill from edison at end of the year should be $0.  However, I will still pay about $120 to edison per annum for maintenance.

Does the math work out though?  You spent an extra $5k to get a larger system which allows you to sell excess kwh back to SCE @ .03/kwh.  $5k with a long term investment horizon (ie. 100% equities) would yield ~7-8% / yr.  My calculation shows you would have been better dumping the $5k in the market.

You cannot sell back to SCE anymore. You just generate credit. Over-generation is washed out after 12 months.

That's why the battery backup is good.

Yup. That?s why I previously mentioned that having the battery is good to have. Especially with the new time they will charge people.

 

[eyephone]

To compensate, I went from a 21 solar panel unit to a 30 solar panel unit.  This cost about $5000 more after 30% tax credit.
These panels supposedly will now generate 16,000 kWh per annum.  I only used 9,300 kWh last year.


21 * 330 = 6,930 system (this system generates 10,000 kWh in CA weather)
30 * 330 = 9,900 system (this system generates 16,000 kWh in CA weather)


Why leave all that unused real estate on my rooftop?
This is like recycling or using less gas...a public good.  ya'll should thank me.


I'm still salty that sunrun kid told me I only needed a 21 panel system when I wanted more.
Like most people after getting solar, you will use more electricity.  That true up bill from edison at end of the year should be $0.  However, I will still pay about $120 to edison per annum for maintenance.

Does the math work out though?  You spent an extra $5k to get a larger system which allows you to sell excess kwh back to SCE @ .03/kwh.  $5k with a long term investment horizon (ie. 100% equities) would yield ~7-8% / yr.  My calculation shows you would have been better dumping the $5k in the market.

You cannot sell back to SCE anymore. You just generate credit. Over-generation is washed out after 12 months.

That's why the battery backup is good.

I think you already talked about this briefly. Any thoughts on the other brands besides Tesla?s wall battery? (Performance, cost, etc)