Presidential Elections

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zovall said:
icey said:
Half this country needs an intervention.
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We need to understand each other instead of just writing the other half off. We need to find common ground and make progress on improving things.
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Can't have middle ground if one sides keeps moving the ground and dismissing facts...things like COVID is bad, climate change is here, and systematic racism exists. 

You cannot have a dialogue about solutions if you don't agree on whether there is a problem or what that problem is. 
 
Trying to stay in power?  That was a red wave not a blue trickle like 2018.  We took back 10-14 seats in the house. Several right here in Cali. We will hold the Senate (much like Texas turning blue...a lefty fantasy), We increased governorships and took back several state houses.  That is going to become very relivent when we redistrict.  Significantly,  we control the Judicial Branch, up and down the structure.  Undoubtedly, we will increase or retake the house at the midterms (as is tradition).  The desperate finger nail hold on power is colored blue not red.
 
morekaos said:
Trying to stay in power?  That was a red wave not a blue trickle like 2018.  We took back 10-14 seats in the house. Several right here in Cali. We will hold the Senate (much like Texas turning blue...a lefty fantasy), We increased governorships and took back several state houses.  That is going to become very relivent when we redistrict.  Significantly,  we control the Judicial Branch, up and down the structure.  Undoubtedly, we will increase or retake the house at the midterms (as is tradition).  The desperate finger nail hold on power is colored blue not red.
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It's not a red wave...it's a rebalancing from 2018 and a win for geography. 

The trend line is there...population is turning purple and blue. 

You understand that the fact that we are talking about elections in OC, SD, and Central Valley is pretty crazy.  Those who are running GOP in California are far less conservative than their predecessors.
https://calmatters.org/politics/pos...ve-red-riptide-republican-congressional-wins/

Again...GOP is leading through geography and gerrymeandering...that will only last for so long.

10 out of the last 14 congressional term has GOP holding the majority in Congress. 

Dems went from 194 to 235 in 2018...it is only logical that there is some swing back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses
 
morekaos said:
You see Icey...nothing has changed, and nothing will going forward.  the Genie is out of the bottle and the Cat is out of the bag....can't put them back in.  A more gentile warfare is still warfare.  Just because you got slugged by a bare fist and not one in a boxing glove doesn't change the fact that you got punched in the face.  Political war is just out in the open now but it has always been there, just wrapped in a glove...
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The way you are even framing the discussion shows how the programming works. Everything is wrapped in terms of "war" and "fighting." All the videos you post are depicting violent contests.

There's no mention of even cooperation in it.

That's full on Stockholm Syndrome programming at work.

I've often said if the President just appointed a General to lead the coronovirus response and used phrasing like "war", we'd have EVERYONE wearing masks and have this stupid thing under control in 2 months easy.

Not all of us are that cynical. Just because we see imperfection doesn't mean we don't stop striving to uphold a vision.

There's a reason the best and the brightest migrate to the US, but after this I wonder if we are going to have trouble recruiting the great mind of the world here.
 
icey said:
morekaos said:
You see Icey...nothing has changed, and nothing will going forward.  the Genie is out of the bottle and the Cat is out of the bag....can't put them back in.  A more gentile warfare is still warfare.  Just because you got slugged by a bare fist and not one in a boxing glove doesn't change the fact that you got punched in the face.  Political war is just out in the open now but it has always been there, just wrapped in a glove...
Click to expand...

The way you are even framing the discussion shows how the programming works. Everything is wrapped in terms of "war" and "fighting." All the videos you post are just one violent "contest" after another.

There's no mention of even cooperation in it.

That's full on Stockholm Syndrome programming at work.

I've often said if the President just appointed a General to lead the coronovirus response and used phrasing like "war", we'd have EVERYONE wearing masks and have this stupid thing under control in 2 months easy.

Not all of us are that cynical. Just because we see imperfection doesn't mean we don't stop striving to uphold a vision.

There's a reason the best and the brightest migrate to the US, but after this I wonder if we are going to have trouble recruiting the great mind of the world here.
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I'm am optimist so I think there is light there...California went through a similar path in the late 1980s and 1990s...while the rhetoric from the top was not as virtrol...the messaging was the same:  Nativism and attacks on minorities...it took time to move away from that and California is solidly Dems at this point. 

I expect that the US will get through this period of time and do the same...trend lines are there.  Social issues are not hot topics anymore and younger generations are less beholden to the grips of capitalism like generations from 1970s and 1980s....things are changing.
 
eyephone said:
Irvinecommuter said:
morekaos said:
See, thats the funny thing..you guys think your guy is honest, truthful and noble, a return to a more gentile time.  The other guy is not.  The other side thinks their guy is truthful and blunt and your guy is totally corrupt and a liar.  I have stated numerous times I think they "ALL ARE LIARS AND CROOKS"...nothing is about to change...nice try though. ;D ;) >:D
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No...this is not about my guy being honest or your guy being a crook...this is about whether you think the electoral system in this country works or not...in essence whether democracy works or not. 

While people have fought about candidates and platform, this is the first time where there was a concerted effort by the losing candidate to claim that the electoral process is fraudulent and that there was a conspiracy to defraud the outcome of the election.  The allegations is not just on a local level...the allegations is that there were entire operations to defraud the election in 4 separate states...two of which have GOP SOS. 

I didn't hear you say that the election process was flawed in 2016 when Trump won.  Why is it flawed all of a sudden in 2020 when Trump loses?  If the election process was so flawed, why did Dems lose seats in the House and trying to get to a 50-50 tie in the Senate?  Why did the GOP take over many of the state government?

It's this level of BS that makes middle ground impossible.  There are no facts here to dispute.  There is no evidence of electoral fraud...just a bunch of people who really wanted their candidate to win and can't handle reality.
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Trump tweeted: Ted Cruz didn?t win Iowa, he stole it. That is why all of the polls were so wrong and why he got far more votes than anticipated. Bad!
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-accuse-cruz-fraud/

Because this is how Trump spreads false information when he does not like the results.
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Donations under $8K to Trump ?election defense? instead go to president, RNC
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-fundraising-insigh-idUSKBN27R309

Scam or sham?
 
eyephone said:
eyephone said:
Irvinecommuter said:
morekaos said:
See, thats the funny thing..you guys think your guy is honest, truthful and noble, a return to a more gentile time.  The other guy is not.  The other side thinks their guy is truthful and blunt and your guy is totally corrupt and a liar.  I have stated numerous times I think they "ALL ARE LIARS AND CROOKS"...nothing is about to change...nice try though. ;D ;) >:D
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No...this is not about my guy being honest or your guy being a crook...this is about whether you think the electoral system in this country works or not...in essence whether democracy works or not. 

While people have fought about candidates and platform, this is the first time where there was a concerted effort by the losing candidate to claim that the electoral process is fraudulent and that there was a conspiracy to defraud the outcome of the election.  The allegations is not just on a local level...the allegations is that there were entire operations to defraud the election in 4 separate states...two of which have GOP SOS. 

I didn't hear you say that the election process was flawed in 2016 when Trump won.  Why is it flawed all of a sudden in 2020 when Trump loses?  If the election process was so flawed, why did Dems lose seats in the House and trying to get to a 50-50 tie in the Senate?  Why did the GOP take over many of the state government?

It's this level of BS that makes middle ground impossible.  There are no facts here to dispute.  There is no evidence of electoral fraud...just a bunch of people who really wanted their candidate to win and can't handle reality.
Click to expand...

Trump tweeted: Ted Cruz didn?t win Iowa, he stole it. That is why all of the polls were so wrong and why he got far more votes than anticipated. Bad!
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-accuse-cruz-fraud/

Because this is how Trump spreads false information when he does not like the results.
Click to expand...

Donations under $8K to Trump ?election defense? instead go to president, RNC
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-fundraising-insigh-idUSKBN27R309

Scam or sham?
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The election is rigged please donate to help me. (literally the donations will help him)

This is why he is holding out.
 
Irvinecommuter said:
No...this is not about my guy being honest or your guy being a crook...this is about whether you think the electoral system in this country works or not...in essence whether democracy works or not. 

While people have fought about candidates and platform, this is the first time where there was a concerted effort by the losing candidate to claim that the electoral process is fraudulent and that there was a conspiracy to defraud the outcome of the election.  The allegations is not just on a local level...the allegations is that there were entire operations to defraud the election in 4 separate states...two of which have GOP SOS. 

I didn't hear you say that the election process was flawed in 2016 when Trump won.  Why is it flawed all of a sudden in 2020 when Trump loses?  If the election process was so flawed, why did Dems lose seats in the House and trying to get to a 50-50 tie in the Senate?  Why did the GOP take over many of the state government?

It's this level of BS that makes middle ground impossible.  There are no facts here to dispute.  There is no evidence of electoral fraud...just a bunch of people who really wanted their candidate to win and can't handle reality.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we question the electoral process and our institutions? Just because one acknowledges the possibility of fraud does not mean that they are against democracy. If there is evidence of large scale fraud, let people bring it forward. And if there isn't evidence, then let's move on.
 
zovall said:
Irvinecommuter said:
No...this is not about my guy being honest or your guy being a crook...this is about whether you think the electoral system in this country works or not...in essence whether democracy works or not. 

While people have fought about candidates and platform, this is the first time where there was a concerted effort by the losing candidate to claim that the electoral process is fraudulent and that there was a conspiracy to defraud the outcome of the election.  The allegations is not just on a local level...the allegations is that there were entire operations to defraud the election in 4 separate states...two of which have GOP SOS. 

I didn't hear you say that the election process was flawed in 2016 when Trump won.  Why is it flawed all of a sudden in 2020 when Trump loses?  If the election process was so flawed, why did Dems lose seats in the House and trying to get to a 50-50 tie in the Senate?  Why did the GOP take over many of the state government?

It's this level of BS that makes middle ground impossible.  There are no facts here to dispute.  There is no evidence of electoral fraud...just a bunch of people who really wanted their candidate to win and can't handle reality.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we question the electoral process and our institutions? Just because one acknowledges the possibility of fraud does not mean that they are against democracy. If there is evidence of large scale fraud, let people bring it forward. And if there isn't evidence, then let's move on.
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But that's the point... where is the evidence? They don't want to move on but they haven't provided any proof either.
 
zovall said:
Irvinecommuter said:
No...this is not about my guy being honest or your guy being a crook...this is about whether you think the electoral system in this country works or not...in essence whether democracy works or not. 

While people have fought about candidates and platform, this is the first time where there was a concerted effort by the losing candidate to claim that the electoral process is fraudulent and that there was a conspiracy to defraud the outcome of the election.  The allegations is not just on a local level...the allegations is that there were entire operations to defraud the election in 4 separate states...two of which have GOP SOS. 

I didn't hear you say that the election process was flawed in 2016 when Trump won.  Why is it flawed all of a sudden in 2020 when Trump loses?  If the election process was so flawed, why did Dems lose seats in the House and trying to get to a 50-50 tie in the Senate?  Why did the GOP take over many of the state government?

It's this level of BS that makes middle ground impossible.  There are no facts here to dispute.  There is no evidence of electoral fraud...just a bunch of people who really wanted their candidate to win and can't handle reality.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we question the electoral process and our institutions? Just because one acknowledges the possibility of fraud does not mean that they are against democracy. If there is evidence of large scale fraud, let people bring it forward. And if there isn't evidence, then let's move on.
Click to expand...

We should always be questioning potential issues but this is not a questioning...this is a conclusion looking for evidence.  Trump supporters start with the premise that the only way for Trump to lose is fraud and therefore there must be fraud.  It's basically how things like flat-earthers work..."Earth is flat therefore...." 

Same with COVID...it is a hoax or not dangerous therefore public health officials are partisan hacks, doctors are profiteers, and politicians/people telling others to wear masks are freedom-hating autocratics.
 
To add to this, CISA already made a statement that the 2020 election was secure... so guess what Trump does? Fires their director:
https://www.engadget.com/donald-trump-fires-cisa-director-chris-krebs-002844016.html

ICYMI: On allegations that election systems were manipulated, 59 election security experts all agree, "in every case of which we are aware, these claims either have been unsubstantiated or are technically incoherent." #Protect2020https://t.co/Oj6NciYruD

? Chris Krebs #Protect2020 (@CISAKrebs) November 17, 2020

At the time, CISA director Christopher Krebs reportedly told people he expected President Donald Trump would fire him for undermining the president?s claim of widespread fraud in the election, and today the president tweeted that he has done just that. According to Trump, ?The recent statement by Chris Krebs on the security of the 2020 Election was highly inaccurate, in that there were massive improprieties and fraud.? After the firing was announced, Krebs tweeted from his personal account ?Honored to serve. We did it right.?
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zovall said:
Irvinecommuter said:
No...this is not about my guy being honest or your guy being a crook...this is about whether you think the electoral system in this country works or not...in essence whether democracy works or not. 

While people have fought about candidates and platform, this is the first time where there was a concerted effort by the losing candidate to claim that the electoral process is fraudulent and that there was a conspiracy to defraud the outcome of the election.  The allegations is not just on a local level...the allegations is that there were entire operations to defraud the election in 4 separate states...two of which have GOP SOS. 

I didn't hear you say that the election process was flawed in 2016 when Trump won.  Why is it flawed all of a sudden in 2020 when Trump loses?  If the election process was so flawed, why did Dems lose seats in the House and trying to get to a 50-50 tie in the Senate?  Why did the GOP take over many of the state government?

It's this level of BS that makes middle ground impossible.  There are no facts here to dispute.  There is no evidence of electoral fraud...just a bunch of people who really wanted their candidate to win and can't handle reality.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we question the electoral process and our institutions? Just because one acknowledges the possibility of fraud does not mean that they are against democracy. If there is evidence of large scale fraud, let people bring it forward. And if there isn't evidence, then let's move on.
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YES

However, these guys are going into court NOT in good faith and they KNOW they have no case. None. Zero. Nada.

Trump's lawyers are 1 win and 26 losses and the cases have been thrown out the same day.

Meanwhile he is creating confusion and scamming you guys for money.

That's IT. He doesn't care about justice. He just wants your money.

And you guys are all falling for it.

If he has a case, let's hear it, but his lawyers are all bailing on him because they know it's just a sham and theater.
 
icey said:
morekaos said:
You see Icey...nothing has changed, and nothing will going forward.  the Genie is out of the bottle and the Cat is out of the bag....can't put them back in.  A more gentile warfare is still warfare.  Just because you got slugged by a bare fist and not one in a boxing glove doesn't change the fact that you got punched in the face.  Political war is just out in the open now but it has always been there, just wrapped in a glove...
Click to expand...

The way you are even framing the discussion shows how the programming works. Everything is wrapped in terms of "war" and "fighting." All the videos you post are depicting violent contests.

There's no mention of even cooperation in it.

That's full on Stockholm Syndrome programming at work.

I've often said if the President just appointed a General to lead the coronovirus response and used phrasing like "war", we'd have EVERYONE wearing masks and have this stupid thing under control in 2 months easy.

Not all of us are that cynical. Just because we see imperfection doesn't mean we don't stop striving to uphold a vision.

There's a reason the best and the brightest migrate to the US, but after this I wonder if we are going to have trouble recruiting the great mind of the world here.
Click to expand...

Predator and prey Icey...that?s just reality. I?ve made no secret that I am a cynic, it is at the root of my success. At its base the ?we are all in it together?. Kumbaya ferry tale is something I have never bought into, just makes for more prey. ;D ;) >:D
 
zovall said:
Irvinecommuter said:
No...this is not about my guy being honest or your guy being a crook...this is about whether you think the electoral system in this country works or not...in essence whether democracy works or not. 

While people have fought about candidates and platform, this is the first time where there was a concerted effort by the losing candidate to claim that the electoral process is fraudulent and that there was a conspiracy to defraud the outcome of the election.  The allegations is not just on a local level...the allegations is that there were entire operations to defraud the election in 4 separate states...two of which have GOP SOS. 

I didn't hear you say that the election process was flawed in 2016 when Trump won.  Why is it flawed all of a sudden in 2020 when Trump loses?  If the election process was so flawed, why did Dems lose seats in the House and trying to get to a 50-50 tie in the Senate?  Why did the GOP take over many of the state government?

It's this level of BS that makes middle ground impossible.  There are no facts here to dispute.  There is no evidence of electoral fraud...just a bunch of people who really wanted their candidate to win and can't handle reality.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we question the electoral process and our institutions? Just because one acknowledges the possibility of fraud does not mean that they are against democracy. If there is evidence of large scale fraud, let people bring it forward. And if there isn't evidence, then let's move on.
Click to expand...

Unless there is a constitutional amendment. The electoral college is here to stay. So instead of a democracy. Do you prefer a dictatorship? (You said question our institutions.)

Where is the evidence? Also, please do not say people can not bring it forward. They have been making allegations. But majority have been thrown out of court. Also, the postal worker that said there was fraud admitted that it was not true.

 
morekaos said:
Predator and prey Icey...that?s just reality. I?ve made no secret that I am a cynic, it is at the root of my success. At its base the ?we are all in it together?. Kumbaya ferry tale is something I have never bought into, just makes for more prey. ;D ;) >:D
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That's a perfectly fine position to take as long as we unwrap the "freedom" and "American flag/patriotism" wrappings that most conservatives hide behind. 

If self-preservation and profit are the ultimate measure...you should be all for China and Russia.
 
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