President Trump

[fortune11]

You don?t even have to read any articles

Just follow this moron?s Twitter feed in real time and you will be enlightened as to where his head and heart is

That being said , I do believe if trump senses 70 percent like tipping point numbers in one direction , he will be the first to jump ship and take credit for any new gun regulation

Which is definitely coming .. Russian trolls and Fox News drumbeat notwithstanding

 

[nosuchreality]

70% are already in favor of reasonable gun control.  The issue is everyone screaming on the issue  isnt. Its memes meant to sound rational but really are not.

Its like illegal immigration, nobody really wants to solve it, they want to pose, they want their dirt cheap house cleaners and farm hands, they just dont want them living in Irvine, they belong in Santa Ana

 

[fortune11]

70% are already in favor of reasonable gun control.  The issue is everyone screaming on the issue  isnt. Its memes meant to sound rational but really are not.

Its like illegal immigration, nobody really wants to solve it, they want to pose, they want their dirt cheap house cleaners and farm hands, they just dont want them living in Irvine, they belong in Santa Ana

Excellent point - and this is precisely why sensible gun reform (AR-15 checks and balances type) should be an easier pass than immigration.

Because it affects only a tiny minority of gun owners that punch way way above their democratic weight because of their stranglehold on red state and gop politicians.

And these gun nuts and NRA are able to convince the majority of sensible gun owners into believing that giving even an inch on assault weapons is like starting on a slippery slope of confiscation of your handgun from its well protected gun-safe. 

Whereas immigration affects almost everyone who lives in or anywhere near a metropolitan area.



 

 

[fortune11]

So much for the counseling and therapy argument ... 

Teachers say Florida suspect?s problems started in middle school, and the system tried to help him


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/teachers-say-florida-shooters-problems-started-in-middle-school-and-the-system-tried-to-help-him/2018/02/18/cdff7aa6-1413-11e8-9065-e55346f6de81_story.html?undefined=&utm_term=.6928768cd5ba&wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1

His middle school and high school teachers referred him to individual and family counseling, the records show. They held parent conferences and called social workers. They sent him to in-school suspension, and they sent him off campus. For a time, they sent him to a school for emotionally disturbed youth. Finally, after he was disciplined for an assault at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High, they asked for an assessment of the threat he posed to his school, and ultimately he was expelled, about a year before he returned with a gun.

 

[nosuchreality]

Yep there's breakdowns. Florida social services close the case.  FBI didnt even check.  Whats your point?  The kid had issues, mom kept him in check apparently, mom died. People took him in had no clue and apparnetly non of agencies could be bothered to inform them

The rational solution? Lets check out the breakdowns,  learn and fix what prevent these three agencies from talking and expect our agencies to work effectively. 

As for therapy and couseling working, lets look at Germany or other western EU states. Its what makes their 'gun control' actua!ly work.

So much for the counseling and therapy argument ... 

Teachers say Florida suspect?s problems started in middle school, and the system tried to help him


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/teachers-say-florida-shooters-problems-started-in-middle-school-and-the-system-tried-to-help-him/2018/02/18/cdff7aa6-1413-11e8-9065-e55346f6de81_story.html?undefined=&utm_term=.6928768cd5ba&wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1

His middle school and high school teachers referred him to individual and family counseling, the records show. They held parent conferences and called social workers. They sent him to in-school suspension, and they sent him off campus. For a time, they sent him to a school for emotionally disturbed youth. Finally, after he was disciplined for an assault at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High, they asked for an assessment of the threat he posed to his school, and ultimately he was expelled, about a year before he returned with a gun.

So much for the counseling and therapy argument ... 

Teachers say Florida suspect?s problems started in middle school, and the system tried to help him


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/teachers-say-florida-shooters-problems-started-in-middle-school-and-the-system-tried-to-help-him/2018/02/18/cdff7aa6-1413-11e8-9065-e55346f6de81_story.html?undefined=&utm_term=.6928768cd5ba&wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1

His middle school and high school teachers referred him to individual and family counseling, the records show. They held parent conferences and called social workers. They sent him to in-school suspension, and they sent him off campus. For a time, they sent him to a school for emotionally disturbed youth. Finally, after he was disciplined for an assault at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High, they asked for an assessment of the threat he posed to his school, and ultimately he was expelled, about a year before he returned with a gun.

 

[fortune11]

The point is very simple and back to what I have been saying all along ? limit access to mass murder weapons for these psychos , so even if system fails , the resulting damage is limited .

Mental breakdowns checks and balances are like training and then trusting  drivers to do it properly ... most will do it , some won?t ? you prevent idiots from their Idiocy by mandating seatbelts and airbags

 

[nosuchreality]

The point is very simple and back to what I have been saying all along ? limit access to mass murder weapons for these psychos , so even if system fails , the resulting damage is limited .

Mental breakdowns checks and balances are like training and then trusting  drivers to do it properly ... most will do it , some won?t ? you prevent idiots from their Idiocy by mandating seatbelts and airbags

That already failed.

Columbine was a planned bombing. Oklahoma city was a rental truck filled with fertilizer.  The Boston marathon was pipe and pressure cooker bombs. The nutjob in Vegas turned a casino hotel suite into a bunker with security cameras and defensive measures.

The kid took an Uber to the school, we better ban Uber.

And if you want a seatbelt, thats armed people in the schools.  You dont protect drivers by banning driving or banning a car street racers like, you enforce the existing laws.

Lets start simple, a federal background check, a like when buying a new gun in a store, on any transfer of ownership of a gun.  No more gunshow loophole. No private sale loophole as eithervwill require you to do the check at a licensed firarm dealer.

 

[Ready2Downsize]

The point is very simple and back to what I have been saying all along ? limit access to mass murder weapons for these psychos , so even if system fails , the resulting damage is limited .

Mental breakdowns checks and balances are like training and then trusting  drivers to do it properly ... most will do it , some won?t ? you prevent idiots from their Idiocy by mandating seatbelts and airbags

That already failed.

Columbine was a planned bombing. Oklahoma city was a rental truck filled with fertilizer.  The Boston marathon was pipe and pressure cooker bombs. The nutjob in Vegas turned a casino hotel suite into a bunker with security cameras and defensive measures.

The kid took an Uber to the school, we better ban Uber.

9/11 was a plane hijack and there have been numerous car/trucks run into innocent people around the world (even with barricades) plus suicide bombers with jackets full of explosives which thankfully we don't see here...... yet.

Lets not even think about poisoning water supplies or mailing anthrax. Perhaps you don't remember Dr. Ford who lived in Woodbridge (yup.................. IRVINE) who had all kinds of things buried in his yard......... C4, Machine Guns, lots of biotech in his family room. Just when you think it couldn't happen in IRVINE.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/03/u...leaves-many-troubling-mysteries-unsolved.html

Oh and there was the machete guy who cut off someone's head in um.......... IRVINE again (Albertsons in Northwood).
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jun/30/local/me-slasher30

Nuts are nuts. They will do what they will do and they will find their own way to do it.

Not that I think we should have assault rifles but just saying............ there's more than one way to skin a cat and nuts will find one or more.

 

[fortune11]

There is a very basic difference between cars and trucks and airplanes whose basic function is transportation from point A to point B

A guns basic function is to take someone?s life or cause damage to limbs.  That?s it, full stop . There is no other ?utility ?  . Even when used for self defense , this is what?s actualy happening in physical terms

AR 15s basic function is to impose maximum damgage to the aforementioned body (bodies ) in a short amount of time

I know we want to win arguments but let?s not turn logic on it?s head please

 

[Kings]

The point is people will find ways to kill people no matter what.  If all guns are capable of this, is the answer to ban all guns?  Good luck.  Do we make guns harder to acquire?  We can implement laws on top of laws on top of laws, but as long as guns are in our society there will be a way to obtain them.  See prohibition.  Guns have been around for years, but only recently have we as a people begun using them to create mass tragedies.

The common denominator is not guns, it's mentally ill people.  Now that we've identified the underlying cause of these tragedies, what is the solution?  More therapy?  Maybe.  But I think we need to start from the beginning.  I think the biggest issue is how our children are being raised.  What is contributing to the mentally ill that want to shoot up the school or commit X tragedy?  Violent movies, tv shows, and video games all glorify the hero who is invincible and kills at will.  Do you think that puts ideas in the heads of mentally ill people?  For someone who is never the hero, never has anything good going in their life, the thought of being a hero in your own story for once would be the greatest thing ever.

If you don't think violent media influences these mentally ill people, imagine a world where we didn't have movies like John Wick and video games like Call of Duty.  Where else would the idea that you could use weapons to kill tens of people with come from?  I used to think it was a crazy idea that these things contributed to mass tragedies.  Why, I have no inclination to shoot up a school after I watch one of those movies or play one of those games.  But, I can now see how the idea can be put in the head of someone who is mentally ill.  Especially someone who has no support system and nobody to tell them what's right from wrong.

But now we find ourselves in the same position - do we ban video games and violent movies?  That won't work either.  We need to be more present in our young people's lives.  We need to do a better job at teaching them what's right and what's wrong, even if you don't think it needs to be said.  It starts with our schools and with our parenting.  We've raised a generation of neglected youth and it's starting to show.

 

[nosuchreality]

Here's Reuters list of worst school shootings in the last twenty years. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-shootings-in-the-united-states-idUSKCN1FY31I

Go through and count the number of times an Assault Weapon was used.  I'll even let you count the Santa Monica guy that machined his own  criItical parts to build his own AR-15.

Your statement on guns shows you underlying bias and basic lack of knowledge of them.

 

[fortune11]

If we are going to start playing "paste your favorite article here from a quick google search" it will lead to mutually assured destruction

Why the AR-15 keeps appearing at America's deadliest mass shootings
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/02/14/ar-15-mass-shootings/339519002/

And please stop coming back to " ban all guns" like a broken record ... we have been on that road 10 times already --- it is about smarter checks and balances to keep high powered weapons off the hands of people who shouldn't have easy access to them to begin with.  No one is banning all guns in this country short of inciting mass civil unrest and a breakup of the union !!

Will new regulations prevent every single shooting and every smart killer who will find a workaround ? Obviously not . But it can greatly reduce the odds and thats what we are talking about here. It is about managing broader risk.

 

[nosuchreality]

You do realise your link says the AR-15 has been used 13 times in the last 35 years for mass shootings out of 8 Million AR-15s being owned.

 

[fortune11]

You do realise your link says the AR-15 has been used 13 times in the last 35 years for mass shootings out of 8 Million AR-15s being owned.

Of which 11 took place in the last six years - averaging 2 per year . That is the whole point of the article and the headline . Pick your comebacks with caution

If we had 2 plane crashes every year due to the exact same  cause how long would it take us to diagnose and fix it

here is another factoid for you ?

In 1996, the Republican-majority Congress threatened to strip funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention unless it stopped funding research into firearm injuries and deaths. The National Rifle Association accused the CDC of promoting gun control. As a result, the CDC stopped funding gun-control research ? which had a chilling effect far beyond the agency, drying up money for almost all public health studies of the issue nationwide.

 

[nosuchreality]

If you want to tackle the problem go after handguns.  They kill far more, like 17 handgun homicides everyday, the same number as Parkland and that doesnt include the near two for one suicide rate from guns or the 25 attempted suicides per success.

As for the last few years, this AR-15 is one of the many guns the shooter typically uses.  The AR-15 Isnt the cause.

If this a plane in your analogy you're saying the cause of the crash is the plane hit the mountain while ignoring the pilot flying the plane into the mountain after locking his crew out.

 

[fortune11]

If you want to tackle the problem go after handguns.  They kill far more, like 17 handgun homicides everyday, the same number as Parkland and that doesnt include the near two for one suicide rate from guns or the 25 attempted suicides per success.

As for the last few years, this AR-15 is one of the many guns the shooter typically uses.  The AR-15 Isnt the cause.

That relates to violence in society as a whole .... murders and prostitution were always with us and will always be with us in humanity's future

What we need to focus on is reducing the odds of massive casualties . One guy with a handgun or machete can occasionally be tackled by a security guard in school , that guard has near zero chance against a guy firing 45 rounds per minute ...

 

[nosuchreality]

If you want to tackle the problem go after handguns.  They kill far more, like 17 handgun homicides everyday, the same number as Parkland and that doesnt include the near two for one suicide rate from guns or the 25 attempted suicides per success.

As for the last few years, this AR-15 is one of the many guns the shooter typically uses.  The AR-15 Isnt the cause.

That relates to violence in society as a whole .... murders and prostitution were always with us and will always be with us in humanity's future

What we need to focus on is reducing the odds of massive casualties . One guy with a handgun or machete can occasionally be tackled by a security guard in school , that guard has near zero chance against a guy firing 45 rounds per minute ...

Lol.

 

[Cornflakes]

The point is people will find ways to kill people no matter what.  If all guns are capable of this, is the answer to ban all guns?  Good luck.  Do we make guns harder to acquire?  We can implement laws on top of laws on top of laws, but as long as guns are in our society there will be a way to obtain them.  See prohibition.  Guns have been around for years, but only recently have we as a people begun using them to create mass tragedies.

The common denominator is not guns, it's mentally ill people. Now that we've identified the underlying cause of these tragedies, what is the solution?  More therapy?  Maybe.  But I think we need to start from the beginning.  I think the biggest issue is how our children are being raised.  What is contributing to the mentally ill that want to shoot up the school or commit X tragedy?  Violent movies, tv shows, and video games all glorify the hero who is invincible and kills at will.  Do you think that puts ideas in the heads of mentally ill people?  For someone who is never the hero, never has anything good going in their life, the thought of being a hero in your own story for once would be the greatest thing ever.

If you don't think violent media influences these mentally ill people, imagine a world where we didn't have movies like John Wick and video games like Call of Duty.  Where else would the idea that you could use weapons to kill tens of people with come from?  I used to think it was a crazy idea that these things contributed to mass tragedies.  Why, I have no inclination to shoot up a school after I watch one of those movies or play one of those games.  But, I can now see how the idea can be put in the head of someone who is mentally ill.  Especially someone who has no support system and nobody to tell them what's right from wrong.

But now we find ourselves in the same position - do we ban video games and violent movies?  That won't work either.  We need to be more present in our young people's lives.  We need to do a better job at teaching them what's right and what's wrong, even if you don't think it needs to be said.  It starts with our schools and with our parenting.  We've raised a generation of neglected youth and it's starting to show.

So, if we pull a Pareto mass shootings in all countries (where we lead by a wide margin), and a Pareto of mentally ill people as % of the population, the Pareto chars will jive?

Do we have the disproportionately large population of mentally ill compared to other nations?

 

[Kings]

The point is people will find ways to kill people no matter what.  If all guns are capable of this, is the answer to ban all guns?  Good luck.  Do we make guns harder to acquire?  We can implement laws on top of laws on top of laws, but as long as guns are in our society there will be a way to obtain them.  See prohibition.  Guns have been around for years, but only recently have we as a people begun using them to create mass tragedies.

The common denominator is not guns, it's mentally ill people. Now that we've identified the underlying cause of these tragedies, what is the solution?  More therapy?  Maybe.  But I think we need to start from the beginning.  I think the biggest issue is how our children are being raised.  What is contributing to the mentally ill that want to shoot up the school or commit X tragedy?  Violent movies, tv shows, and video games all glorify the hero who is invincible and kills at will.  Do you think that puts ideas in the heads of mentally ill people?  For someone who is never the hero, never has anything good going in their life, the thought of being a hero in your own story for once would be the greatest thing ever.

If you don't think violent media influences these mentally ill people, imagine a world where we didn't have movies like John Wick and video games like Call of Duty.  Where else would the idea that you could use weapons to kill tens of people with come from?  I used to think it was a crazy idea that these things contributed to mass tragedies.  Why, I have no inclination to shoot up a school after I watch one of those movies or play one of those games.  But, I can now see how the idea can be put in the head of someone who is mentally ill.  Especially someone who has no support system and nobody to tell them what's right from wrong.

But now we find ourselves in the same position - do we ban video games and violent movies?  That won't work either.  We need to be more present in our young people's lives.  We need to do a better job at teaching them what's right and what's wrong, even if you don't think it needs to be said.  It starts with our schools and with our parenting.  We've raised a generation of neglected youth and it's starting to show.

So, if we pull a Pareto mass shootings in all countries (where we lead by a wide margin), and a Pareto of mentally ill people as % of the population, the Pareto chars will jive?

Do we have the disproportionately large population of mentally ill compared to other nations?

I'd be interested to see that chart.  But I would also argue that we have the largest concentration of violent media and ease of access.  It's not just being mentally ill - the world has had mentally ill people since the beginning of time - but only in very recent years have we introduced the idea that the hero, against all odds, uses a gun (or other weapon) to mass murder "bad guys" for the "greater good".

 

[nosuchreality]

The point is people will find ways to kill people no matter what.  If all guns are capable of this, is the answer to ban all guns?  Good luck.  Do we make guns harder to acquire?  We can implement laws on top of laws on top of laws, but as long as guns are in our society there will be a way to obtain them.  See prohibition.  Guns have been around for years, but only recently have we as a people begun using them to create mass tragedies.

The common denominator is not guns, it's mentally ill people. Now that we've identified the underlying cause of these tragedies, what is the solution?  More therapy?  Maybe.  But I think we need to start from the beginning.  I think the biggest issue is how our children are being raised.  What is contributing to the mentally ill that want to shoot up the school or commit X tragedy?  Violent movies, tv shows, and video games all glorify the hero who is invincible and kills at will.  Do you think that puts ideas in the heads of mentally ill people?  For someone who is never the hero, never has anything good going in their life, the thought of being a hero in your own story for once would be the greatest thing ever.

If you don't think violent media influences these mentally ill people, imagine a world where we didn't have movies like John Wick and video games like Call of Duty.  Where else would the idea that you could use weapons to kill tens of people with come from?  I used to think it was a crazy idea that these things contributed to mass tragedies.  Why, I have no inclination to shoot up a school after I watch one of those movies or play one of those games.  But, I can now see how the idea can be put in the head of someone who is mentally ill.  Especially someone who has no support system and nobody to tell them what's right from wrong.

But now we find ourselves in the same position - do we ban video games and violent movies?  That won't work either.  We need to be more present in our young people's lives.  We need to do a better job at teaching them what's right and what's wrong, even if you don't think it needs to be said.  It starts with our schools and with our parenting.  We've raised a generation of neglected youth and it's starting to show.

So, if we pull a Pareto mass shootings in all countries (where we lead by a wide margin), and a Pareto of mentally ill people as % of the population, the Pareto chars will jive?

Do we have the disproportionately large population of mentally ill compared to other nations?

Actually those mass shooting charts fall apart when you look at the underlying disclaimers and data issues. The best exMples of gun control and violence are South America.

The other point is mental health issue and mental illness are NOT synonymous. The percentage of diagnosed serious mental illness and gun violencd is relatively low.  Whatevr serious MI is versus just MI or he big grey area skiding into mental health before it becomes diagnosed or 'illness'

After Germany's last round of mass shootings, yes they had them too, they approached it from mental health.  Many otherEuropean cou tries did the sMe.

Now, how many of these gunman commit suicide before being captured or even trying to escape. JIMHo, these are more notice me suicides than evil attack.

Approach that issue maybe we can address the 2 for 1 death rate for guns in general.