President Trump

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Irvinecommuter - Your position is that everybody either has to agree with your thoughts on racism or else they aren't smart enough to understand racism.  That's a false dichotomy.  (It's also condescending.)

Nonetheless, my posts on Trump's history of helping people of color & minorities were not meant to argue anything about his racism.  You brought up Trump's history without presenting much to back it up, and I made those posts to show there is a lot that contradicts your views of him.  It shows this topic is more nuanced than you or Trump's political enemies want to give him credit for.

Do you acknowledge that Trump was the first club owner in Palm Beach to allow Jews, Blacks, and openly gay couples as members?
 
Racism ranks right up there with global warming with me.  Too much attention paid to issues I feel don?t really warrant it. Another issue that true believers get all a Twitter about if you don?t agree with the dogma 100%.
 
Is it possible to be racist against white people?  Many would say it is not.  Does that make racism subjective?

Does Google's culture and practices exhibit racism against white people?  See excerpt below from James Damore's lawsuit.

Mn2L7Hq.jpg
 
Liar Loan said:
Irvinecommuter - Your position is that everybody either has to agree with your thoughts on racism or else they aren't smart enough to understand racism.  That's a false dichotomy.  (It's also condescending.)

Nonetheless, my posts on Trump's history of helping people of color & minorities were not meant to argue anything about his racism.  You brought up Trump's history without presenting much to back it up, and I made those posts to show there is a lot that contradicts your views of him.  It shows this topic is more nuanced than you or Trump's political enemies want to give him credit for.

Do you acknowledge that Trump was the first club owner in Palm Beach to allow Jews, Blacks, and openly gay couples as members?
Click to expand...

It is neither.  Again...the fact that you would bring up those incidents shows that you do not understand racism.  It is not about intelligence...but rather a fundamental misunderstand of the concept of racism, especially as conservatives see it. 

Trump is not nuanced...Trump has always been about him.  The fact that Harvey Weinstein did some good things does not negate the terrible things that he did.  It is the classic conservative defense of "he is not all bad" followed by "whataboutism". 
 
Kings said:
Is it possible to be racist against white people?  Many would say it is not.  Does that make racism subjective?
Click to expand...

1)  You are reading a complaint, which literally can allege just about anything.

2)  Changing the status quo does not racism make. 

David Gudeman, one of two ex-Google engineers suing the company for alleged discrimination against conservative white men, says the company is dominated by a ?hate group? illegally promoting ?racism and misandry.? Gudeman and his co-plaintiff James Damore filed the lawsuit earlier this week, but he expanded on his motivations in a blog post, illuminating the reasoning behind the suit.

?I don?t hate Google, and I certainly don?t hate the people who work there,? writes Gudeman. ?I wouldn?t want this suit to give people a bad opinion of Googlers, but, honestly, they brought this on themselves for tolerating the hatred, racism, and misandry of a small but vocal and organized subgroup who want to use Google as a vehicle of social change rather than as a vehicle of delivering excellent service and products to their customers.?

According to the lawsuit, Gudeman was fired after questioning a Muslim co-worker?s claims of being targeted by the FBI over his religion. Gudeman asked why his co-worker didn?t file a civil rights suit if his claims were true, and then asked whether the FBI might have ?found something interesting? about the co-worker?s recent trip to Pakistan. In Gudeman?s words, he was ?simply [questioning] the logic behind a coworker?s story of victimization on the basis of his race and religion,? but he alleges that Google said he had accused his co-worker of terrorism.
Click to expand...
https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/...suit-misandrist-liberal-hate-group-accusation

3)  Reality and facts

There?s some irony in those claims. Google?s overall workforce is 69 percent male and 56 percent white, according to the company?s most recent diversity report. Google?s technical employees are 80 percent male and 53 percent white. Google?s leadership is 75 percent male and 68 percent white. The company is facing a Department of Labor investigation and a private lawsuit claiming that it discriminates against women in pay, and promotion.
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https://www.wired.com/story/james-damores-lawsuit-is-designed-to-embarrass-google/
 
Irvinecommuter said:
Kings said:
Is it possible to be racist against white people?  Many would say it is not.  Does that make racism subjective?
Click to expand...

1)  You are reading a complaint, which literally can allege just about anything.

2)  Changing the status quo does not racism make. 

David Gudeman, one of two ex-Google engineers suing the company for alleged discrimination against conservative white men, says the company is dominated by a ?hate group? illegally promoting ?racism and misandry.? Gudeman and his co-plaintiff James Damore filed the lawsuit earlier this week, but he expanded on his motivations in a blog post, illuminating the reasoning behind the suit.

?I don?t hate Google, and I certainly don?t hate the people who work there,? writes Gudeman. ?I wouldn?t want this suit to give people a bad opinion of Googlers, but, honestly, they brought this on themselves for tolerating the hatred, racism, and misandry of a small but vocal and organized subgroup who want to use Google as a vehicle of social change rather than as a vehicle of delivering excellent service and products to their customers.?

According to the lawsuit, Gudeman was fired after questioning a Muslim co-worker?s claims of being targeted by the FBI over his religion. Gudeman asked why his co-worker didn?t file a civil rights suit if his claims were true, and then asked whether the FBI might have ?found something interesting? about the co-worker?s recent trip to Pakistan. In Gudeman?s words, he was ?simply [questioning] the logic behind a coworker?s story of victimization on the basis of his race and religion,? but he alleges that Google said he had accused his co-worker of terrorism.
Click to expand...
https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/...suit-misandrist-liberal-hate-group-accusation

3)  Reality and facts

There?s some irony in those claims. Google?s overall workforce is 69 percent male and 56 percent white, according to the company?s most recent diversity report. Google?s technical employees are 80 percent male and 53 percent white. Google?s leadership is 75 percent male and 68 percent white. The company is facing a Department of Labor investigation and a private lawsuit claiming that it discriminates against women in pay, and promotion.
Click to expand...
https://www.wired.com/story/james-damores-lawsuit-is-designed-to-embarrass-google/
Click to expand...

So the whole lawsuit has no merit because google is majority white and male? I think you're missing the point.  The lawsuit and the excerpt is merely an example.

37 Things White People Need To Stop Ruining In 2018
First of all, America.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricepeck/37-things-white-people-ruined-in-2017?utm_term=.tpA56aJMWR#.qxR641MlpZ
Click to expand...

Is this buzzfeed article racist?

How about now?

37 Things Black People Need To Stop Ruining In 2018
First of all, America.
Click to expand...
 
Kings said:
So the whole lawsuit has no merit because google is majority white and male? I think you're missing the point.  The lawsuit and the excerpt is merely an example.
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No...the lawsuit is without merit for a number of reasons, one of which is that diversity is a tangible benefit for a company for a whole hosts of reasons and that the two primary plaintiffs are basically acting like a-holes and then complaining about why they are not allowed to act like a-holes.  That would like Harvey Weinstein saying that the women who complained about his actions are being sexists because he wanted to act like an a-hole and pervert.

No...buzzfeed articles are not racists.  They maybe ignorant, prejudiced, and in bad taste but not racist.  Again...fundamental misunderstanding of racism.

 
Irvinecommuter said:
No...buzzfeed articles are not racists.  They maybe ignorant, prejudiced, and in bad taste but not racist.  Again...fundamental misunderstanding of racism.
Click to expand...

So the specific article that was linked, written by a black woman, arguing that many activities made popular by black people that white people should stop doing because they are ruining them, is not, by definition, "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior," a racist article?
 
Irvinecommuter said:
Liar Loan said:
Irvinecommuter - Your position is that everybody either has to agree with your thoughts on racism or else they aren't smart enough to understand racism.  That's a false dichotomy.  (It's also condescending.)

Nonetheless, my posts on Trump's history of helping people of color & minorities were not meant to argue anything about his racism.  You brought up Trump's history without presenting much to back it up, and I made those posts to show there is a lot that contradicts your views of him.  It shows this topic is more nuanced than you or Trump's political enemies want to give him credit for.

Do you acknowledge that Trump was the first club owner in Palm Beach to allow Jews, Blacks, and openly gay couples as members?
Click to expand...

It is neither.  Again...the fact that you would bring up those incidents shows that you do not understand racism.  It is not about intelligence...but rather a fundamental misunderstand of the concept of racism, especially as conservatives see it. 

Trump is not nuanced...Trump has always been about him.  The fact that Harvey Weinstein did some good things does not negate the terrible things that he did.  It is the classic conservative defense of "he is not all bad" followed by "whataboutism".
Click to expand...

I think your argument is self-defeating, but at the same time it would be a waste of further effort to debate this issue. 

Your basic view is that one's political outlook determines if they are a racist.  Just admit it so we can move on.
 
Seriously, please enlighten my pre Neanderthal brain as to the subtleties and nuances of modern day racism. I am so sick of being preached to when to my simple mind it is just a lot of common sense. The twisting of the unenlightend Who use the simple phrase ?I have friends who aren?t white? and equating that to thick headed old ideas. Actually, I do have black friends, and brown ones and gay ones and (god forbid) white ones but you know what? Until someone points it out to me, they are just my friend, or colleague or parent.  I don?t see them through color, never have,  it is not what defines them, but libs always want it to be!
 
Racism is first of all a complete disqualifier  in our modern society - so NOBODY wants to be called a racist.  Even a Neo nazi like Richard Spencer will tend to argue about culture more than about skin color when it is the exact same views essentially .  So lets first establish that as a common point we can all agree on -- that nobody likes to be called a racist .

Lets also stipulate that outrageous behavior like barring non white people from drinking water from a fountain or not sitting at a lunch counter in a department store also using dogs on peaceful protestors, is also trashed in the same pathetic heap of history which nobody wants to go back to. 

So far so good.  Now here is where it gets tricky --

The legacy impact of race (and to some extent gender) still continues to affect us .  How ? It is because most of the power , opportunity and $$ is still controlled by (old) white men. To get ahead in life , you have to at some point, impress one or the other old white men.  This happens at all levels .

If your name sounds different or funny , you have a problem

If you didn't have access to the right schools, you have a problem

If you have an accent , you have a problem

(also for women) if you are not willing to hang out after work, or discuss endless sports over chicken wings in a bar, you have a  problem

It is not just about working hard and letting chips fall where they may.  It is about having access to opportunities

There are obviously great levelers like areas where pure skill can be used to overcome everything else - like sports , entertainment, parts of tech industry, parts of finance where the best and brightest can shine.  But we are talking here of the bulk of the workforce in blue collar and low to mid level white collar jobs.

By and large it comes down to access

whites socializing among whites only (be it golf games, weekend barbecues, living in " good areas " ) exacerbates the problem.  It is like " let them eat cake " problem.  If you haven't worked with under privileged children or under privileged members of society it is very difficult to see things from their perspective.

Attending a benefits concert / charity gala for 1,000 doesn't count when you are donating $$ and supporting politicians working to further make life difficult for the working poor.  And this is not just republicans, many democrats fall under this camp too. 

Now there are many first and second generation non white immigrants ( esp on this forum) who also feel that if they can make it why cant others - the Asian " model minority " concept that many Neo nazis in fact use in their discussions.

If this country can give great opportunity to immigrants from xyz random nation to build their entire life from scratch , then why cant others ?

Here is where we fall prey to the "selection bias "  .  people who make it here from 5,000 miles away are highly motivated and driven to begin with. they have networks of similar minded people ready to accept them and guide them through.  obviously they are also putting in the effort , no one is taking is that away from them .  But they can still never shake that "where are you from" zinger

Even their second and sometimes third generation children face problems breaking out from "traditional" careers into something where they again need access to the right opportunity. 

Our country is much much better than rest of the world and especially Europe where racism is actually explicit and can be very ugly.  Doesn't mean we cannot continue to improve. This topic by its very nature makes people uncomfortable


Back to Trump, I don't think he is an active racist like Richard Spencer.  But I dont think he gets a free pass.  He is from a different era where his concept of what is good and beautiful is very much rooted in whiteness and others  "should stay in their place" type mentality of privilege that many old white people still have.

Now someone can take one piece of this long read  and latch onto it to convert it into a "gotcha" post  but pls try to keep this in context. Most people who read this know exactly what I am saying




 
Alright, I am sick of all the racism talk....let?s get back to winning!!!

Economists Credit Trump For Booming Economy, Growth Will Continue In 2018 Thanks To Trump's Tax Bill

CNBC?s economic survey released prior to Christmas showed that for the first time in over a decade a majority was optimistic about the economy, and there was a shift as to who should receive credit for it: Donald J. Trump. The economic growth for the fourth quarter was near four percent. Over 100 companies gave bonuses of at least $1,000 or more to over a million workers, even some part-timers got a piece of that action. The GOP tax bill, which the Left said was going to be a prelude to Armageddon, was exactly the opposite for the American worker, who the Democratic Party decided to bet against to try and undercut Trump. Over 90 of middle class Americans will be receiving a tax cut. The Democratic Party is going to have to explain that move, especially when this tax bill becomes more popular.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/01/15/economists-credit-trump-for-booming-economy-say-growth-will-continue-into-2018-thanks-to-tax-bill-n2434417
 
morekaos said:
Alright, I am sick of all the racism talk....let?s get back to winning!!!

Economists Credit Trump For Booming Economy, Growth Will Continue In 2018 Thanks To Trump's Tax Bill

CNBC?s economic survey released prior to Christmas showed that for the first time in over a decade a majority was optimistic about the economy, and there was a shift as to who should receive credit for it: Donald J. Trump. The economic growth for the fourth quarter was near four percent. Over 100 companies gave bonuses of at least $1,000 or more to over a million workers, even some part-timers got a piece of that action. The GOP tax bill, which the Left said was going to be a prelude to Armageddon, was exactly the opposite for the American worker, who the Democratic Party decided to bet against to try and undercut Trump. Over 90 of middle class Americans will be receiving a tax cut. The Democratic Party is going to have to explain that move, especially when this tax bill becomes more popular.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/01/15/economists-credit-trump-for-booming-economy-say-growth-will-continue-into-2018-thanks-to-tax-bill-n2434417
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No... Not the winning!!! I'm getting sick of it!! :D
 
You guys are taking the same position trump is taking of tying ?winning ? to basically rising stock market  and paper gains in your portfolio .

2020 is a long ways away and I suspect the day or weeks when s&p stops going up 10-20 points every day is when we will start to see a pin drop silence (or maybe a puddle of red font as opposed to a the ocean of red font we have now) .
 
Pocketbook not social issues win elections...

The question Democrats fear most

Ronald Reagan asked a simple question both in 1980, when he ran against the economic malaise of the Carter years, and again in 1984, after he had implemented the same pro-growth policies Trump is now implementing. ?Are you better off today than you were four years ago??

No politician or pundit can spin the answer to that question ? every American knows it precisely in their own lives. That question devastated Democrats in both elections, because the answer was self-evident.

Republicans are now uniquely poised to ask it once again.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/rep-tom-mcclintock-the-question-democrats-fear-most/article/2645952
 
fortune11 said:
You guys are taking the same position trump is taking of tying ?winning ? to basically rising stock market  and paper gains in your portfolio .

2020 is a long ways away and I suspect the day or weeks when s&p stops going up 10-20 points every day is when we will start to see a pin drop silence (or maybe a puddle of red font as opposed to a the ocean of red font we have now) .
Click to expand...

Of course the markets will go down.  I am rooting for it...at least 2500 points down.  Markets need to breath, can't inhale forever, must exhale in order to live.  Also, scares out the weak hands and provides a base to advance further.  Nothing acts as a scoreboard better than dollars and cents.  Remember, its the economy stupid!!!  That is what wins elections.
 
Which defunct political textbook are we reading these from

You know that bush lost midterms heavily in 2006 right ? Arguably even better economy than now

You also already know your guy trump won in 2016 right ? in an already strong economy that should have favored the incumbency .
 
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