Opinions on Augusta?

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ocfoilist said:
Thanks, everyone, for your insight.  My wife and I packed up a picnic lunch and spent a few hours at the park next to Augusta.  We had no noise or vibration issues at all; the train passed by twice and sounded the horn, which we could barely hear while outside (in fact, my wife missed it the first time and we both almost missed it the second time).  It does make sense that the number of houses between Edinger and the Augusta development would dampen the noise by quite a bit.  There were planes in the distance but frankly the cars driving down the street were far louder and more numerous.  All in all, we had a good feel of the place.

@irvinehomeowner: that's a good point about traffic; I remember Red Hill traffic from years past.  I do like the fact that you can (when it gets built out) exit from the neighborhood through quite a few streets, including exits out onto Redhill, Jamboree, Edinger and Barranca.  We stopped by to look at Laguna Altura and were trying to do the math on what a pain it would be to have however many homes they have in there all come out of basically one gate.  There is another entrance off to the side but it seems that the brunt of the traffic coming and going during peak times would clog that single gate up quite a bit.

As was mentioned earlier taxes are going to be around $13,000/year (~1.8%), but that doesn't seem completely out of range of other new developments in the vicinity.  For me, we would be getting quite a bit more house per dollar than some of the smaller VoI places we were looking at.
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Just to be clear, I was told by the salesperson that the MR portion of the tax bill would be $6400/year for Plan 1.  But, that escalated a few hundred for Plan 2, and a few more for Plan 3.  But assuming a 1% base property tax rate for the city, Plan 1 ($670,000) would have base tax+MR of $13,100/year, or 1.95%.  However- in the same thread, rimrattler6 said that the saleslady told him that Plan 1's effective tax rate was actually about 2.1%.  That would mean approximately $1,000/year in additional assessment(s) or tax(es).  That's not unheard of, I've seen that quite frequently in communities such as Aliso Viejo- though they usually only add up to a $1,500 - $2,000 TOTAL, not $7,400.

So just to review, Plan 1, ~ 2.1%, ~ $14,070/year taxes/assessments, $109/mo HOA. 
 
Shouldn't u guys be looking at the total payment of the home vs the home price and MR components?  Im guessing the builder comes up the price and MR based on the overall affordability. So if the MR was lower by 50%, I would think they would raise the price of the home
 
akula1488 said:
rimrattler6 said:
shadax said:
So just to review, Plan 1, ~ 2.1%, ~ $14,070/year taxes/assessments, $109/mo HOA.
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That's the exact reason why I crossed Augusta off my list....and it's not even for Irvine.
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I would not pay that even in Irvine, let alone Tustin.
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If i had 3 kids and I was 15 years older, I would pay that 2.1% to go to the better irvine schools. But as it turns out, i'm (relatively) young, no kids, and have a gf, so 2.1% makes no sense anywhere.
 
qwerty said:
Shouldn't u guys be looking at the total payment of the home vs the home price and MR components?  Im guessing the builder comes up the price and MR based on the overall affordability. So if the MR was lower by 50%, I would think they would raise the price of the home
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Mello Roos payments aren't usually tax deductible as far as I know, whereas mortgage interest usually is.  Also, you can't pay off Mello Roos early in most cases like you can pay off a mortgage.  Also, I do compare that.  Augusta Plan 1 vs. Maricopa @ SG Plan 1, even though there is a $100k price difference, due to the different tax situations it's only about a $200/mo difference according to my calculations.  And since the non-"base property tax" burdens are about $3200/year difference, depending on your tax situation, being able to deduct that portion (interest) and not (MR) could make that monthly difference even less. 
 
I do believe some bond assessments (all usually lumped under the term Mello Roos but are actually other types) can be paid off early.

Why would a homeowner do that is beyond me.
 
Great feedback - thank you, everyone.  Working through the financials is an interesting experience.  I put together a spreadsheet of cost breakdowns for a few places to give me a better understanding of how these fees break out.  These numbers are based on their literature and, where it was not published, their sales rep.  I don't mean to compare the quality of the locations; merely to give myself a better understanding of what I'm looking at. 

Ainsley Park (Columbus Grove) - based on their $500,000 plan 3 (sq ft: 2,364)
Property tax of 1.17%
Mello Roos of 0.99%
HOA dues of 0.80%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 2.97%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $6.30 per sq. ft.

Augusta (Columbus Square) - based on their $690,000 plan 2 (sq ft: 2,723)
Property tax of 1.05%
Mello Roos of 0.64%
HOA dues of 0.22%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 1.91%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $4.83 per sq. ft.

Mirabella (Columbus Square) - based on their $480,000 plan 3 (sq ft: 2,198)
Property tax of 1.22%
Mello Roos of 0.75%
HOA dues of 0.86%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 2.83%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $6.18 per sq. ft.

Laguna Altura - based on their $750,000 San Remo 3 (sq ft: 2.061)
Property tax of 1.05%
Other taxes (not MR but a variety of city-related ones) of 0.65%
HOA fees of 0.47%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 2.18%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $7.92 per sq. ft.

Stonegate - based on their $575,000 San Mateo 2 (sq ft: 1,660)
Property tax of 1.05%
Other taxes (not MR but a variety of city-related ones) of 0.65%
HOA fees of 0.23%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 1.93%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $6.68

Of course, I understand that there are a lot of other factors that go into these figures.  For example, there were some build-out fees built into some of the Columbus area places and I don't know if you can write off some of the MR-style taxes in Irvine (they aren't MR but seem to be roughly equivalent at least in concept).  As always, I know city preference will weigh in as well.  But as a rough baseline, do these numbers seem to make sense?  Irvinehomeowner, the land disclaimers are indeed an important factor.  I understand that I would be buying on a former military base and am willing to accept that factor, but it is definitely an important consideration.  We are still exploring all options, including the Villages of Irvine.
 
ocfoilist said:
Great feedback - thank you, everyone.  Working through the financials is an interesting experience.  I put together a spreadsheet of cost breakdowns ...
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just wondering, are you not considering portola springs?  also, you are comparing the mello roos and hoa as a percent of the price of the home, but you are comparing vastly different homes/home prices... the san mateo homes are cheaper and 500-900 sq ft smaller than your voc homes right?  would it not be a better comparison to match them up again the larger stongegate communities? (since the mello roos and hoa are fixed they would be a smaller percentage when calculated against the higher priced stonegate homes.)
 
I think a per/sft cost is a bit misleading (which is why I'm not a fan whenever anyone brings that up) because bigger homes will usually have a lower per/sft metric... what you should be looking at is also monthly cost.

While Augusta is the lowest per/sft, Ainsley, Mirabella and San Mateo is probably going to have a lower monthly cost when you factor in mortgage, taxes, HOA etc.

Then of course, there are the location, home type, lot size etc things that can't really be broken down into $/sft.
 
ocfoilist said:
Great feedback - thank you, everyone.  Working through the financials is an interesting experience.  I put together a spreadsheet of cost breakdowns for a few places to give me a better understanding of how these fees break out.  These numbers are based on their literature and, where it was not published, their sales rep.  I don't mean to compare the quality of the locations; merely to give myself a better understanding of what I'm looking at. 

Ainsley Park (Columbus Grove) - based on their $500,000 plan 3 (sq ft: 2,364)
Property tax of 1.17%
Mello Roos of 0.99%
HOA dues of 0.80%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 2.97%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $6.30 per sq. ft.

Augusta (Columbus Square) - based on their $690,000 plan 2 (sq ft: 2,723)
Property tax of 1.05%
Mello Roos of 0.64%
HOA dues of 0.22%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 1.91%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $4.83 per sq. ft.

Mirabella (Columbus Square) - based on their $480,000 plan 3 (sq ft: 2,198)
Property tax of 1.22%
Mello Roos of 0.75%
HOA dues of 0.86%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 2.83%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $6.18 per sq. ft.

Laguna Altura - based on their $750,000 San Remo 3 (sq ft: 2.061)
Property tax of 1.05%
Other taxes (not MR but a variety of city-related ones) of 0.65%
HOA fees of 0.47%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 2.18%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $7.92 per sq. ft.

Stonegate - based on their $575,000 San Mateo 2 (sq ft: 1,660)
Property tax of 1.05%
Other taxes (not MR but a variety of city-related ones) of 0.65%
HOA fees of 0.23%
  Total fees per year as a percentage of cost: 1.93%
  Total cost as a percentage of square feet: $6.68

Of course, I understand that there are a lot of other factors that go into these figures.  For example, there were some build-out fees built into some of the Columbus area places and I don't know if you can write off some of the MR-style taxes in Irvine (they aren't MR but seem to be roughly equivalent at least in concept).  As always, I know city preference will weigh in as well.  But as a rough baseline, do these numbers seem to make sense?  Irvinehomeowner, the land disclaimers are indeed an important factor.  I understand that I would be buying on a former military base and am willing to accept that factor, but it is definitely an important consideration.  We are still exploring all options, including the Villages of Irvine.
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How are you getting such a low figure for Augusta/Mirabella?  Augusta is just under 1% of the PP for Mello/year, Mirabella is well over 1% of the PP for Mello/year.
 
I definitely see the complexities when trying to make comparisons across the board.  The difficultly is in trying to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.  In order to get a closer sq ft comparison to VoI - Stonegate, for example - I would be looking at a home in the mid $800,000 to $900,000 range, which is simply beyond our price point.  At the end of the day, I am trying to compare real-world check writing duties based on homes in the budget/size range that we are looking for.  I realize that this isn't going to be a perfect comparison (I'm not sure it would be possible to create one anyway); it is simply a way for me to decide how much I will be spending and how much house I will be getting, removing non-quantifiable opinions about city preference, gating vs. non-gating, and so forth.  Shadax, I based the numbers off of the brochures and paperwork they provided when we viewed the homes.
 
ocfoilist said:
I definitely see the complexities when trying to make comparisons across the board.  The difficultly is in trying to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.  In order to get a closer sq ft comparison to VoI - Stonegate, for example - I would be looking at a home in the mid $800,000 to $900,000 range, which is simply beyond our price point.  At the end of the day, I am trying to compare real-world check writing duties based on homes in the budget/size range that we are looking for.  I realize that this isn't going to be a perfect comparison (I'm not sure it would be possible to create one anyway); it is simply a way for me to decide how much I will be spending and how much house I will be getting, removing non-quantifiable opinions about city preference, gating vs. non-gating, and so forth.  Shadax, I based the numbers off of the brochures and paperwork they provided when we viewed the homes.
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okay because I was told by the agent directly that Augusta Plan 2's MR alone is $6,400/year.  I also was told the MR alone for Mirabella would be over $5,000/year...which is more than 1%.
 
i applaud your analysis ocfoilist but an easier approach might be converting everything to the sale price of the house (that might not be correct phrase...read on).  this isnt perfect either but idea is to say something like house A costs me $700K and house B costs me equivalent of $800K.  then it becomes an easier decision.  the easiest way to do this is take any additional amounts outside of standard property tax and see what they translate into in terms of a loan payment and tack that amount to total.  example is much clearer:

House A - $700K, $150 HOA, $7000 annual MR
House B - $800K, no HOA or MR

$500 a month translates into an additional $100,000 that you can finance.  So the equivalent prices would be:

House A - $846K equivalent price if every HOA and MR dollar went to financing
House B - $800K

that makes it a lot easier to compare.  obviously its not perfect but its how my wife and i look at houses. 
 
rkp said:
i applaud your analysis ocfoilist but an easier approach might be converting everything to the sale price of the house (that might not be correct phrase...read on).  this isnt perfect either but idea is to say something like house A costs me $700K and house B costs me equivalent of $800K.  then it becomes an easier decision.  the easiest way to do this is take any additional amounts outside of standard property tax and see what they translate into in terms of a loan payment and tack that amount to total.  example is much clearer:

House A - $700K, $150 HOA, $7000 annual MR
House B - $800K, no HOA or MR

$500 a month translates into an additional $100,000 that you can finance.  So the equivalent prices would be:

House A - $846K equivalent price if every HOA and MR dollar went to financing
House B - $800K

that makes it a lot easier to compare.  obviously its not perfect but its how my wife and i look at houses. 
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That's exactly how you compare apples to apples with homes that have different HOAs and MRs.  I tell my buyers to use get the total annual amount for the HOA and MR.  Then divide those amounts by the 30-year fixed rate to get the capitalized value (some buyers may choose to deduct MR so they should take the AFTER-TAX MR and divide by the interest rate).  Then add those capitalized values to the price of the home and divde by the SF to get price/SF. 
 
USCTrojanCPA said:
That's exactly how you compare apples to apples with homes that have different HOAs and MRs.  I tell my buyers to use get the total annual amount for the HOA and MR.  Then divide those amounts by the 30-year fixed rate to get the capitalized value (some buyers may choose to deduct MR so they should take the AFTER-TAX MR and divide by the interest rate).  Then add those capitalized values to the price of the home and divde by the SF to get price/SF. 
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Who the hell finances HOA and MR?  MR is already financed, the payments include interest charges.  Do you payoff your credit card with another credit card?  Stupid in stupid out.  No wonder you can't figure out downside right from upside wrong.

 
test said:
USCTrojanCPA said:
That's exactly how you compare apples to apples with homes that have different HOAs and MRs.  I tell my buyers to use get the total annual amount for the HOA and MR.  Then divide those amounts by the 30-year fixed rate to get the capitalized value (some buyers may choose to deduct MR so they should take the AFTER-TAX MR and divide by the interest rate).  Then add those capitalized values to the price of the home and divde by the SF to get price/SF. 
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Who the hell finances HOA and MR?  MR is already financed, the payments include interest charges.  Do you payoff your credit card with another credit card?  Stupid in stupid out.  No wonder you can't figure out downside right from upside wrong.
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When did I say you are financing HOA and/or Mello Roos?  I'm assigning a CAPITALIZED VALUE to HOA and Mello Roos based upon the annual amount since both are essentially perpetuities so you can compare properites with different HOAs and Mello Roos costs.  So relex or you'll blow a head gaskets Mr. Columbus Square.  ;) 
 
I don't think I've really put heavy weight on $/sft... I look at how it fits into my budget and if it has the features/room count/location I want.

I will buy a 2200sft home with a high $/sft in a good location over a 3000sft home with a low $/sf in a bad location.
 
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