New vs. Old... Huntington vs. Irvine

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
I give up. hs_teacher knows more about schools, real estate, demographics, and statistics than anyone here. Everyone should take hs_teacher's advice, as it is the best advice, and because his friends tell him so, then his advice is correct. Losing money is good advice, because that is what he told Panda to do, and because his friends in Columbus Square told him losing money is a good thing. Actual facts do not matter, only his opinion, and no one else who has years of real estate experience and/or jobs in real estate related fields know what they are talking about.

Does it make you feel better that you proved that FVH was slightly better than VPH in test scores? Even though the OCR has FVH ranked #15 and VPH ranked #16? That's cool. You know more about schools then I do, and you should. I know more about real estate, because I should.

BTW, you remember back when you said that the jobs in OC were not that bad? I do, and today the latest came out and it was worse, again. Looks like you were wrong, again. But, I am sure all your friends have jobs, so everyone else in OC really has jobs and the facts do not matter, right.
 
There aren't any exceptions.
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i hope you stand by this statement...

All the top schools are in middle to higher income neighborhoods except for LQ - which has a lot of Asians - demographics matter.
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nope, i guess not.

so let's see.. top schools are in high (and now you apparently added middle) income neighborhoods. but in certain schools with high incomes, the demographics could be poor. on the other hand, certain schools have poor neighborhoods, but they're good schools if there's lots of asians. then again, some of the schools at the bottom have higher asian populations than some at the top, but i'm sure you'll say it has to do with not just asians in general, but certain wealthy asian populations. i also notice tustin high ranks near the bottom. i also recall you being so adamant in other threads about how the VoC zip code has BETTER demographics than irvine. but yeah yeah i know, has to do with poorer non-east asian kids coming from neighboring areas right?

exceptions? what exceptions??

your argument at this point is held together by so many band aids. that is called a flawed premise. how about this one -- the performance of schools are due to so many factors -- including wealth of surrounding neighborhood, local tax revenue, mello roos, school district administration, % of teachers with credentials, education level of parents, divorce rates, % of native english-speaking parents, % of parents who both work, and countless dozens of other factors -- none of which can be dumbed down into a simple formula about age of homes, daddy's checking acct, and yellowness of skin.
 
graphrix said:
I give up. hs_teacher knows more about schools, real estate, demographics, and statistics than anyone here. Everyone should take hs_teacher's advice, as it is the best advice, and because his friends tell him so, then his advice is correct. Losing money is good advice, because that is what he told Panda to do, and because his friends in Columbus Square told him losing money is a good thing. Actual facts do not matter, only his opinion, and no one else who has years of real estate experience and/or jobs in real estate related fields know what they are talking about.

Does it make you feel better that you proved that FVH was slightly better than VPH in test scores? Even though the OCR has FVH ranked #15 and VPH ranked #16? That's cool. You know more about schools then I do, and you should. I know more about real estate, because I should.

BTW, you remember back when you said that the jobs in OC were not that bad? I do, and today the latest came out and it was worse, again. Looks like you were wrong, again. But, I am sure all your friends have jobs, so everyone else in OC really has jobs and the facts do not matter, right.
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1. Losing money is never a good thing. But if you understand investments, selling low is always worse off than selling high. There's also immediate transaction costs.

2. Jobs in the OC were not that bad. And it's still not that bad today. Oh my, unemployment is nearing 5%, the sky must be falling. Hey, I never said it was good. There's big differences between great, good, and not that bad.

In Central OC, the area that I am familiar with - I admit I'm not very familiar with the north or the south, these are the schools I consider to be good:

University High - Top performer in a wealthy area.

Northwood High - Top performer in a wealthy area with excellent facilities.

Woodbridge High - Good peformer in a good area with top students.

Irvine High - Good performer in a good area with top students.

Corona del Mar High - Very wealthy, very private school like.

Fountain Valley High - Good school in a middle income neighborhood.

Marina High - Good school in coastal HB.

Foothill High - Good school in the affluent foothills.

Edison High - Good school in coastal HB.

Huntington Beach High - Good school in coastal HB.

El Modena High - Nice.

Villa Park High - Nice.

Newport Harbor High - Great location.

Arnold O. Beckman High - Great facility.

I also admit that Fountain Valley High is not that much better than Villa Park High. The point I was trying to make is that Villa Park High is in a high income city. But it has a lot of students outside of Villla Park attending it so it's scores are lowered. And it's trending down because of the change in demographics.

Fountain Valley High is in a middle income city, but it's also in the middle of Fountain Valley. So most of its students are from Fountain Valley so its scores are pretty stable.

You also need to look at the trends...I'm somewhat confidant these schools will remain strong:

University High - Irvine

Northwood High - Irvine

Woodbridge High - Irvine

Irvine High - Irvine

Corona del Mar High - Newport

Whereas, I'm not too sure about these:

Huntington Beach High - more underachievers every year.

El Modena High - more underachievers every year in an aging community.

Villa Park High - more underachievers every year in an aging community.

Newport Harbor High - more underachievers every year.

Arnold O. Beckman High - more underachievers every year.

Although I would feel safe sending kids to any of these schools, for parents who are concerned about the cream of the crop, they should stick to the top of the list. I think that Irvine and Newport will stay strong because they have desirable newer homes. I think that Orange and Huntington Beach could trend down because they have older, outdated homes.

I actually really like... Northwood, Corona del Mar, Edison, Huntington Beach, and Newport Harbor. Academics isn't everything.
 
acpme said:
There aren't any exceptions.
Click to expand...

i hope you stand by this statement...

All the top schools are in middle to higher income neighborhoods except for LQ - which has a lot of Asians - demographics matter.
Click to expand...

nope, i guess not.

so let's see.. top schools are in high (and now you apparently added middle) income neighborhoods. but in certain schools with high incomes, the demographics could be poor. on the other hand, certain schools have poor neighborhoods, but they're good schools if there's lots of asians. then again, some of the schools at the bottom have higher asian populations than some at the top, but i'm sure you'll say it has to do with not just asians in general, but certain wealthy asian populations. i also notice tustin high ranks near the bottom. i also recall you being so adamant in other threads about how the VoC zip code has BETTER demographics than irvine. but yeah yeah i know, has to do with poorer non-east asian kids coming from neighboring areas right?

exceptions? what exceptions??

your argument at this point is held together by so many band aids. that is called a flawed premise. how about this one -- the performance of schools are due to so many factors -- including wealth of surrounding neighborhood, local tax revenue, mello roos, school district administration, % of teachers with credentials, education level of parents, divorce rates, % of native english-speaking parents, % of parents who both work, and countless dozens of other factors -- none of which can be dumbed down into a simple formula about age of homes, daddy's checking acct, and yellowness of skin.
Click to expand...

Go ahead and confuse yourself with all those variables. When it's really class and race.

I'm so tired of informing you about everything.

Tustin High is in the 92780, the poorer part of Tustin - that's why it scores so low.

The 92782 is the richer part.

Sorry dude, but I'm tired of giving free lessons. Your comments just help me realize how oblivous some people are with class, race, demographics, and schools.

Last point, underachievers bring down the scores. Figure out who underachieves and you will know which schools don't do well.
 
hs_teacher said:
There aren't any exceptions. All the top schools are in middle to higher income neighborhoods except for LQ - which has a lot of Asians - demographics matter.

ALL the schools at the bottom are in poor neighborhoods or have a low performing racial mix (I just don't want to straight out say it).

Essentially, it's only down to two variables - class (upper performs better than lower) and race (a specific group underperforms). It's that simple.

I have not made any statements that deviate from this.

I believe in science. I believe there are explanations for everything.

Not a single but...
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The universal constant in school performance is expectations.

Parental expectations for student performance and school administrator expectation for student performance. Not test performance, daily performance. Attendance, homework, study and the parental and school intolerance of non-performance of the basic attendance, homework and study. It requires parental and school administrator discipline to enforce that basic expectation.

That same expectation gap is a known issue with the socio-economics groups you hint at.
 
ok these are my final thoughts and i'm done with this... i think what bothers me the most is broad and often superficial generalizations being used so casually. it takes a lot more thought and insight to appreciate a well-built older home than a brand new mcmansion. or notice an area where residents have true pride-of-ownership instead of relying on hoa and mello roos-funded maintenance. or understand what really makes a school perform well instead of just looking at the skin color and wealth of the student body.

an example you've stressed is northwood high. northwood is not great because of the neighborhood. it's a great school because of everything that's involved in making a great school. IUSD staffed the school from the get-go with top notch people. the orig principal who launched the school was tapped by SJC to open another school. his replacement, cassie parham, was one of the original northwood administrators who helped launch the school. parham didn't stay long in that job either... because she got promoted again and is now IUSD asst superintendent of education srvcs. she's barely mid 30s. a true superstar in her field. so when you just say northwood is great because there's expensive new homes there, it fails to acknowledge the hard work of some really damn good people. anyone familiar with the politics of LAUSD -- all its special privileges, media attention, and funding -- is thankful for the kinds of school districts we have all across OC.

and yes, northwood pointe homes are new and expensive. but the correlations you're seeking have to do with parents who tend to be well-educated working professionals. for most baby boomer immigrants from asia, their lifetimes revolved around constand war and strife. whether they're wealthy korean or taiwanese, or vietnamese and mainland chinese refugees, all were seeking a safer, more stable situation for their families. they place a heavy emphasis on education because they want to give their children the best possible shot at their own independent success in this new land. when the immigrant parents do make it big in america, they'll do whatever they need to so their children also get the best shot at success, whether it means moving to the right neighborhood or placing them in the right school.

so yes, there's correlation in newness and wealth and schools. they might be end products of one another, but none are the reason for the others. that's why its possible to see good schools in poor neighborhoods and vice versa. when you dumb down those things into how new a persons house is, how big daddy's pocketbook is, and the color of their skin, it's not only superficial, it really discounts all those other more impt factors which are not superficial - good, honest, hard work.

it's just really surprising, and disappointing, to see such comments from someone that's not only a school teacher but also vietnamese. i don't ever want someone to say the success of my children is because rich chinese daddy bought a shiny new house in irvine. it'll be because grandma and grandpa immigrated to a country where they could barely speak the language, beat some discipline into future mommy and daddy, who then worked their butts off in school and at their careers. all of that so we can afford to pay ridiculous taxes and assessments to support these fine schools and neighborhoods, and because we're active members of our communities who would be demanding of teachers and administrators. and last but not least, because we'd instill the same thinking into our kids.

and maybe, just maybe, all of that happens to lead to a new home in irvine, but not because of it.
 
As a prospective owners, will you have the time to interview all your neighbors to find out what their beliefs and expectations are? Be a little practical. I am Vietnamese. And I know a lot of Vietnamese who didn't do so well because of their poverty and immigrant status. I grew up in Garden Grove. I thought it was a perfectly fine city. With the good and the bad. Then I grew up, went to UCI, traveled throughout Orange County schools and realize where Garden Grove stands. I've seen so many high schools. And they all tell the same story. Class matters a lot. Race matters a lot. Look at the bottom ten schools. They are all in poor neighborhoods with a lot of the underachieving group. Can you point to one school that money or color does not matter?

School Name SAT % Free Meals % Minority API

Century High 1183 70.4 99.2 584

Valley High 1265 65.7 99.4 585

Santa Ana High 1304 67.3 98.4 622

Saddleback High 1309 57.6 96.8 604

Anaheim High 1339 71.4 95.7 684

Buena Park High 1376 28.5 83 717

Santiago High 1377 75.3 94.5 711

Savanna High 1380 44.3 70.5 700

Orange High 1381 60 82.2 695

Magnolia High 1387 53.6 85.9 687

Western High 1398 42.3 69.7 731

Now look at the top ten schools. Which one is below middle class? Which one has a lot of the underachieving group? None. Absolutely none.

The PRIMARY GOAL of the state is to bridge the achievement gaps between rich and poor; and majority and underrepresented minorities.

School Name SAT Score % Free Meals % Minority API

Troy High 1911 5.4 60 914

Oxford Academy 1903 16.8 72.1 981

University High 1861 6.7 56 881

Northwood High 1762 1.9 51.4 858

Woodbridge High 1721 5.8 43.3 839

Irvine High 1714 7.5 55.8 827

Corona del Mar High 1698 2.2 13.7 863

Sunny Hills High 1668 3.7 74.4 843

Laguna Beach High 1668 4.1 13.5 811

High School of the Ar 1661 5.3 33.9 856

Fountain Valley High 1656 7.7 53.8 821

That's the reality.
 
Poor Asian immigrants lived into poor part of the city and attended school among the blacks and Hispanic. Asians were in the free lunch program and ESL classes as well. A very small percentage of the student population went to college.

The college bound demographic were almost all Asians with a few Hispanic. Yes, the population within the district was poor but Asians did excel academically under economically and culturally deprived conditions. The wealthier Asian population in Irvine are much well off than the poor Asians in the inner city.

The wealthier kids attend tutorial and Sat Prep classes as well as other extracurricular enrichment programs while the poor Asian kids borrowed a Sat study manual from the local library with torn cover.

I really think the success of the student is the parents' participation and encouragement. Wealthier Asian kids have educated parents as role models while poor Asian kids have a different kind of role models. Poor parents often preached "If you do not get an education then you will end up like me washing dishes at a restaurant or like your mother working long hours at the garment sweatshop".

Poor neighborhoods have high Hispanic and Black population. Their emphasis in education is viewed differently than Asians. This is the reason the academic ranking is lower than school from the wealthy locations with high Asian population.

IMO I think ethnicity has direct relevance to academic success than property value neighborhood. Take for instance Westminster or FV are places of poor Asian immigrants and the schools have academic merit. These Asian kids also are on the free lunch program.

No kids succeed without parents support. When Parent believe in them they believe in themselves.
 
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