Is there any way prices can appreciate from here?

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IrvineRenter_IHB

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I am a housing bear. I believe we will see price reductions of 30%-40% or even more over the next 3 to 5 years.





I have a friend who is planning to buy in this market. He believes this is a dip, and double digit appreciation will return to the market starting in 2008.





Can anyone construct a scenario for me whereby house prices rise from current levels and appreciate strongly for another 3 to 5 years? Maybe I am too locked in to my point of view, but I can't even imagine a plausible scenario whereby my friends view of the market can come to pass. Is it possible, and if so, how?
 
<p>Unlikely but plausible scenario:</p>

<p>-Hyperinflation (10%+), leading to,</p>

<p>-Huge increase in wages, leading to,</p>

<p>-Huge price increases of all goods, services, commodities, and real estate.</p>

<p>The *real* price increases will be near zero if you adjust for inflation, however, the perceived rate of increase will be higher.</p>

<p>There are numerous theories out there that the Fed has already inflated asset bubbles around the globe with it's easy monetary policy for the last 10 or so years. If this were to be left unchecked it would result in hyperinflation a la 80's.I doubt if this will happen though.</p>
 
Hello Irvine Renter,





I think it depends on what your friend is looking for. As I've stated in previous posts, if he found a home that he really likes and can afford it with conventional loan, then sure, go ahead and buy it if he intends to live there for the next 20 years if it'd make him happy.





But if he's looking for an investment/flip and he thinks he's only going to hold the property for 2 years, then he's prolly getting himself into trouble.
 
My friend actually believes appreciation will return to the market next year. There seem to be so many people who believe this is just a small dip, I would just like one of them to present a rational argument or lay out a set of market circumstances that could result in continued appreciation. I just can't see it.
 
<p><em>"I think it depends on what your friend is looking for. As I've stated in previous posts, if he found a home that he really likes and can afford it with conventional loan, then sure, go ahead and buy it if he intends to live there for the next 20 years if it'd make him happy."


</em></p>

<p>Let's approach this from the aspect of demographics of the two largest groups of employable people in Irvine.</p>

<p><strong>Mid/late-30's White Collar Professionals ("Early - mid career"):</strong> Most young people who buy homes for living in them have at least a 3 - 5 year horizon of commitment. (Just take an informal poll next time you are around a bunch of mid/late-30's white collar professional men or women.) The reason most people in this demographic can forecast 3 - 5 years out is that they are still gaining job experience and may or may not end up working in the same company or region (<em>caveat</em> - unless they are in sales, where regional expertise is paramount for developing long term relationships). A significant number of people (90% +) in this category are <em>not</em> flippers. They have one or two young children and need to have some semblance of stability in the early part of their children's lives and short-term flipping runs counter to that approach.</p>

<p><strong>For this specific demographic, of which there are a large number in the OC and especially in Irvine, and they constitute a large percentage of first time home buyers, the prospect of "instant equity evaporation" in the current housing market is disconcerting (or at least it should be, at any rate).</strong></p>

<p><strong>Mid/late 40's White Collar Professionals ("mid-career"): </strong>People in this category typically have longer time horizons 10-20 years to which they are willing to commit in considering home purchases. They typically have a little bit older kids in school and their stability is of paramount importance. They will do what they can to stay within the same region (same school district even) as long as they can reasonably afford to live there. There may be some "lateral movement" by people in this category as far as home purchase decisions are concerned (<em>in falsetto</em> - "...honey! that new development looks really good, it will only increase our payments by x-amount which we can easily afford, let's get a new home for a change!"). They may just be rolling over any equity they have already built up in their existing homes and will see little or no impact to their perceived monthly expenses when they make the move. I say "perceived" because everytime one moves or buys a new home, there are inevitable "moving expenses" and our consumerist culture places special emphasis on "brand new" items such as new appliances ("honey! stainless steel went out of style in the late 90's" ), drapes and furnishings, and furniture.</p>

<p><strong>For this specific demographic as in the previous one, of which there are a large number in the OC and especially in Irvine, and they constitute a large percentage of homeowners and social climbers alike, the prospect of "instant equity evaporation" in the current housing market is less of a threat because they feel that they can "ride out" the market because of their perceived long term horizon. This demographic, in my view, is the one most susceptible to changes in economic condictions such as industrial evolution (think socal base closures in the 90's), job security, and recession if it limits their ability to sell and move (find another job) once (if) the shite hits the fan.</strong></p>

<p>My overall recommendation would be to consider things a little more rationally before making decisions that have a major financial impact on your friend's lives. In the end your friend (not you, unless you are related or otherwise intimately involved) as an individual would have to live with the decision.</p>
 
<p>One more comment, actually, just a <a href="http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/6089/1833/1600/81813/stages_7.jpg">picture</a> that's worth more than a thousand words...</p>

<p><a target="_self" href="http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/6089/1833/1600/81813/stages_7.jpg"><img alt="" src="http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/6089/1833/1600/81813/stages_7.jpg" /></a></p>
 
crucialtaunt,





That is a good analysis of the housing market demographics. Is there a set of circumstances that you can envision that would make these people start to buy in large enough numbers to send the market higher?
 
<p>Crucialtaunt - I can't see your picture!</p>

<p>In my humble opinion, I think this is a dip and home prices will go up because...</p>

<p>My hubby and I are both lawyers with no kids (for at least 2 more years) and have virtually no debt (we flipped the condo we bought in 03 in 06) and paid off the school loans. Anyway, hubby is from NY and we have a bunch of friends who live in L.A. and NYC and the homes there, as you know are friggin expensive. People are paying 2 and 3 million dollars for homes in Santa Monica, etc. Why wouldn't that trend to the OC? I just think the OC is a better place to live and people wil trickle more and more to the OC. I just think a lot of people in our situation in addition to people who just have money will start seeing the OC as the natural place to go next.... </p>
 
<p>hbunny: I edited my post to add a link under the word "picture"...</p>

<p>irvinerenter: The inverted yield curve that you see presently has seldom been wrong in forecasting a recession. While all the leading economic indicators are positive so far, most of them look out only 3-6 months, and there is a high risk of a "housing-led" recession in late 2007. The vicious cycle of softening prices leading to builder cutbacks, leading to loss of jobs in the housing construction industry, and related (dependent) industries may cause enough job losses (forecasts at <a href="http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com">calculatedrisk</a> run at around 500,000 job losses later this year). This may ruin consumer sentiment and may lead to a decline in "aggregate demand" across the economy as a whole.</p>

<p>In summary, I <em>cannot</em> envision a set of circumstances that would result in demand taking off unexpectedly, thereby leading to higher real prices. The hyperinflation scenario suggested above in this forum may cause the prices to go higher but real inflation-adjusted prices may stay flat or even go down, but in today's spin-infested world, perception being reality, the RE shills will make it sound like the market is back!</p>
 
<p>irvinerenter: calculatedrisk has this interesting set of "predictions" for housing in 2007 that I somewhat agree with... Check out <a href="http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2006/12/housing-in-2007.html">this link</a>.</p>
 
crucialtaunt,





I like that analysis. What I find astounding is the record low in house equity. One would think that an unprecedented rise in prices would translate into record high levels of house equity. I guess the housing ATM was pretty widespread. So much for the argument that people were trading up and taking their equity with them.





There is one point where I think the author might be incorrect. I don't believe house prices will be "sticky" on the way down this time. The record number of foreclosures is going to dump many "must sell" properties on the market destroying the comps as they go. This will likely have a domino effect taking out all the marginal buyers as they go underwater. I suspect you will see full blown panic selling sometime in the next 2 years.








hbunny,





There are undoubtedly people like yourself that could buy if they chose to. Prices are going to drop everywhere, so IMO, most people will stay put and buy where they want to live. I don't think there are enough people in your circumstances to have a meaningful impact on the housing market. Your income and circumstances are the exception, not the rule. It is possible that people like yourself buying might impact the market, but I doubt it. Thank you for replying.
 
<p>hbunny,


You think that all of the sudden rich people and high income DINKs everywhere are going to suddenly wake up, realize that OC is fantastic, and start moving here en mass. Why do you think that? And why now? Didn't they know about OC five years ago, ten years ago?The weather, the schools, the job opportunities, etc were all just as good then as they are now, so why is it only now that the sudden flood of high income people will begin? What has changed?</p>

<p>OC's population growth last year was the slowest since 1952, and the slowest on a percentage basis since 1947. So however many well off people are moving here, they seem to be balanced by plenty of others who are leaving.</p>

<p> </p>
 
<p>I'm a card-carrying housing bear but even I am willing to acknowledge that wacky things can happen with so much liquidity in the world economy.</p>

<p>If housing prices <strong>were</strong> to head back up, there's one thing that must happen first: A shift in supply-vs-demand. Prices do not just magically move up -- demand is what drives them up. Right now, supply exceeds demand and there's no inflationary pressure. Appreciation cannot resume unless the demand for housing increases relative to the supply. Just watch the active/pending ratios and the sales/inventory ratios. Last I saw, both ratios were in the 6-8 range. If at any point in the next few years the months-of-supply in OC somehow falls below six or so and stays there for a few months, hide the women and children because it probably means that the bubble is reflating.</p>

<p>All that said, I predict that everyone willl look back at 2007 and be SHOCKED and HORRIFIED at the number of foreclosures, the growth in REO inventory, and the difficulty that shaky borrowers will experience when qualifying for a loan. IMHO, this inventory will overwhelm demand for the next 4-5 years. In 2008, we'll probably deal with the leftover inventory from 2007 plus the newly defaulted who in 2006 were busy refi'ing one time-bomb loan into another.</p>

<p>No bias here, no sir. </p>
 
Let me also add that another indicator could be foreclosures trending DOWN for 2-3 months in a row. Pigs will fly over Northwood if that happens in the next 24 months, IMHO.
 
Bigmoneysalsa, I totally appreciate the statistic - I only base what I say on my gut because I haven't done any research or reading....It just seems based on my circle of friends and colleages and I people I talk to that people (especially in L.A.) and want to start families seemingly want to move here - and they are mostly yuppies and dinks.
 
<p>hbunny,</p>

<p>Don't you see the problem here? You are basing perhaps the largest financial transaction of your life on gut feelings and conversations with aquaintences. In contrast those of us who believe prices will go down are using statistics and economic reasoning. Surely as an attorney you already understand how important this difference is. We housing bears may turn out to be wrong, but at least we are intellectually honest with ourselves.</p>
 
I hope you have patience if you are planning to buy in Irvine as HBs are locked into an agreement where the Irvine Co. must agree to any price reductions. Else where, when the ARM resets, default/s foreclosures, interest rate all come into play, it will be a perfect storm for a free fall. Not to say that Irvine will be immune...but if you are looking for some price cushion when you are ready to buy, you will fare much better elsewhere. IMHO, I believe that the housing market is a long way from finding the bottom. Watch the unemployment claims as this will likely escalate in the next few months.
 
<p>hi everyone - </p>

<p>Again, I do not understand the "after the fact" commentary. If you have decided to purchase a home, say for 900K on 95%-100% financing, I wish you well. Can I do that? Yes. Would I do that? No. But then again, I am somewhat risk averse when it comes to debt. Do I benefit from a dual attorney income? You may never know - and it is not the point. The number of individuals with family AGI's in excess of 200K is small (even in OC)... and accordingly, the number of individuals that can afford a 900K-1m home is likewise small. Hence the conclusion that prices must, should, and will adjust downward. Are some builders reducing prices (an implicit recognition of the market - see Lennar; see Portola; see Quail Hill)? Yes. Are others? It is not clear. Incentives don't always show up on the bottom line.</p>

<p>Now, there are plenty of tax reasons to buy a home, even with near total financing. There are also reasons to buy, even in an inflated market. Do you stand the chance of going upside down in your home? Sure. But who really knows? Not me.</p>

<p>But as I have been catching up with this blog today, I am struck by the number of posts that carry on in a seeming justification of their decision to buy - it rings of buyers remorse, or worse. Some may label these individuals as something else, something other than a genuine home buyer. I don't know.</p>

<p>I just don't get the after the fact commentary. It is without purpose and seemingly not relevant - what is done is done. I also don't get the "dink" comment from one of the posts above. If it is what I think it is, it's a pretty low class comment for an alleged attorney - or for anyone for that matter.</p>

<p>And no everyone, I am not the EEO police. I just gauge the intellectual development of people by the words they use, and the purpose behind their statements and actions. Hopefully I am just jumping the gun, and "dink" is nothing derogatory at all - in which case, I reference the infamous Saturday Night Live skit with Rosanna Ana Banana: "Never Mind."</p>
 
<p>Some general thoughts: I think that the populace at large has been brainwashed that "homeownership" is what everyone should aspire to *at all times* - by the constant barrage of NAR exposure (ads/newsmedia footprint/coverage), and supported largely hand-in-glove by the government with free money through Fannie Mae.</p>

<p>This would normally be a noble goal of any civilized society were it not so corrupted by the excess of free money leading to asset bubbles like the one we see deflating before us. I share the belief with most "homeowners" that homeownership builds wealth in the long term.</p>

<p>However, there is a little bit of an issue with timing. What you buy today will inevitably go down in value tomorrow due to market conditions being what they are. So this is really not the right time to buy. Another thought on human psychology: Why do most rational people buy really expensive new cars knowing that their prices will drop in the future? I don't really know the answer to that. What is going on in people's minds when they are making the buying decision? Are they just getting a shopper's high (endorphin release) on having made this purchase? In that case, is it the same phenomenon that is having people make a beeline to new home releases in the Villages of Columbus in Tustin today? Knowing fully well that a portion of their equity will get instantly vaporized when they do make that purchase. I hope not!</p>
 
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