Is the California (Irvine) Market Ahead of the US Market?

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[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224917709][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224914560]BTW, everyone, please be nice to ID. It is nice to have a bull around.</blockquote>


For the record, I am neither a bull nor a bear. I am a realist.



To illustrate my point: I bought my first home in Irvine in Spring 2003, mentally prepared that it would drop 20% in price. I bought it for my growing family and the best schools, I didn't look to make a quick profit. I still hold it today as rental ($4500 monthly gross rent, compared to $478K original price). I jumped the gun last Nov to buy a forelclosure as primary residence (monthly mortgage payment approx $2300, with close to $499 in principal). I knew it might not be the lowest price yet, but I were able to get finaced then at 5.25% fixed 30 years.)



If I waited till I see every thing clearly, I would not have accomplished any of the above. Many people fail to appreciate opportunity costs, which is difficult to quantify. There are always risks when buying in a turbulent market. Without risks, so gone opportunities.



As a real estate professional, I don't make forecast, I only focus on finding today's best deals with a safety margin to hedge against future price erosion. Most people I work with are educated and well informed with realistic expectations. They have their own needs and priorities, my job is to help them balance and facilitate them.



National and state statitics does matter to me, but not as important as local market trends. As someone who is active in the market, I naturally see things other don't see. I calls these empirical data and gut feel. However, you don't have to take my words for it. These won't be relevant to you unless you enter the market.</blockquote>


I am sorry to read that you purchased a property last November. You managed to buy at the worst possible time. The first 20% drop in real estate values began with the credit crunch in August of last year and it has only briefly stabilized this summer. If you want to fully comprehend what a mistake this was, please read the post <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/blog/comments/timing-does-matter/">Timing Does Matter</a>.



As someone who is active in the market perhaps you see that prices are falling, transaction volumes are very low, the few buyers out there are falling out of escrow because they can't obtain financing. Contrary to what you imply, we are all active in the market. Our activity is watching and waiting. Anyone who watches a financial market and has the ability to participate is a part of the market. Most of the people on this forum could buy a house today if they wanted to. Most don't because they recognize the cost of buying too soon as outlined in the post I linked to above.



Most of the people buying today are not educated and well informed. They are served a heaping helping of bullshit that is washed down with gallons of kool aid. They will all regret their poorly informed choices a few years from now. They may have purchased with "gut feel," but soon they will be puking their guts out from all the stress of being underwater.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1224919367][quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224917709]As someone who is active in the market, I naturally see things other don't see. I calls these empirical data and gut feel. However, you don't have to take my words for it. These won't be relevant to you unless you enter the market.</blockquote>


I am confused by this statement. Do you mean because you are a real estate broker that you are active in the market, and know more than me or anyone else here? Aside from that being arrogant and obviously ignorant of the knowledge of posters like me and many others here, it makes it even more arrogant and ignorant when the MLS stats show you are not very active in the market at all.



Or, do you mean because you are a property owner, and arrogantly and ignorantly assume that everyone here are not owners or have never been owners, that you have a superior knowledge of the RE market? Because, I will happily sell you my home for more than its current market in a few years, or even longer say five years. Hell, I will sell it to you today for its 2006 price.



Again, ignorance is bliss!</blockquote>


Silly, silly me. I am not seeing things that Informed_Decisions sees, naturally. I must not be "active" in the market, and I realize now that my "gut feel" was just gas. When I "enter the market" I will see the light and see Informed_Decisions for the expert that he is.



Seriously, ID, you may want to go back a year or two in the old posts and see exactly who it is you are dealing with. I do not care to swell their heads, but there are folks in here who are so intelligent and well informed that you will not believe how lucky you are that you have chanced upon them. They open my eyes on a constant basis.
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224921440]Graphrix, admit it. We have two different ideologies. When looking at a half-filled water glass, I see it half-full, while you see it half-empty, you even attempt to devise trickery ways to measure it. What is the use answering your questions while you don't seem to at least appreciate other's view? So my answer is NO.



The only thing I can say is I respect your convictions, however I can't appreciate the way you and other buddies treat different viewpoints. For your health sake, calm down and let it be. You and I are not here to fight to save the world, or whatever is in your mind.</blockquote>


That is the whole point of having a discussion board, you know, having different opinions and discussing them. If I didn't appreciate your view, then I wouldn't even reply. You on the other hand do not appreciate opinions other than yours because you refuse to discuss opposing opinions. And how do I devise trickery? Aren't you the one who posts stats, but cherry picks one stat out of many? Again, you <a href="http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contradict">contradict</a> yourself.
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224918761][quote author="WestparkRenter" date=1224917992][quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224917709][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224914560]BTW, everyone, please be nice to ID. It is nice to have a bull around.</blockquote>


As a <strong>real estate professional</strong>, I don't make forecast, I only focus on finding today's best deals with a safety margin to hedge against future price erosion.

</blockquote>
This says it all.</blockquote>


<strong>You are not on my list, and you never will. </strong> Most people I work with are educated and well informed with realistic expectations. They have their own needs and priorities, my job is to help them balance and facilitate them.



I take pride in helping people save money, reduce tax and build long-term equity. I don't waste time with people who doesn't need my help. And I value my precious time so much that I won't engage in attacks like you do. I believe you are entitled to your own view. So does everyone here!</blockquote>


Yes, there are lots of educated and well informed people, then why are we in this mess? 2 of my co-workers also bought into this idea and now declare bankruptcy. They are still employed, just can't make the payment.
 
It is the REITs that are ahead of the residential market.



http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=VNQ&t=3m



They have tanked to the tune of 30% or so in the past two weeks, 40% in the past month. Big, professionally managed trusts that deliver a nice 8% yield keep on falling to new all-time lows. And folks think that a condo that has a 4% cap is fairly valued? Do the math.
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224921440]"So... are you going to answer my questions or not? Not answering my questions is disappointing. Having a different view is great, but you fail to see your own ignorance and arrogance in making assumptions, as I clearly pointed out, especially when you avoid answering my questions.</blockquote>"



Graphrix, admit it. We have two different ideologies. When looking at a half-filled water glass, I see it half-full, while you see it half-empty, you even attempt to devise trickery ways to measure it. What is the use answering your questions while you don't seem to at least appreciate other's view? So my answer is NO.



The only thing I can say is I respect your convictions, however I can't appreciate the way you and other buddies treat different viewpoints. For your health sake, calm down and let it be. You and I are not here to fight to save the world, or whatever is in your mind.</blockquote>
I understand that people have different goals and motivations, especially when it comes to making purchases such as homes. Hell, I was able to find a buyer for my place in less than a week because to the uninformed the market does look tight (low inventory). But the reality is that there's a whole lot more inventory in the pipeline that won't hit the market for the next 6-24 months plus the gov't will slow down the foreclosure process more and more which will only draw out the price declines. Real Estate prices are only going to drop in the next few years due to all of the headwinds...increasing foreclosures, increasing unemployment, tighter lending standards, etc. No one can predict to the tee what the future will hold, but all the signals point to another stairstep down in housing prices (can be from 10% to 30% from current levels in my mind) getting closer to rental parity. That being said, I'll rent for the next few years while prices come down and save money renting.
 
And Global recession



<a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122489105149968665.html?mod=fox_australian">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122489105149968665.html?mod=fox_australian</a>



Even CAR predicts home prices will decline by 6% in 2009, sales up by 12%



<a href="http://www.housingchronicles.com/2008/10/car-predicts-home-prices-will-decline.html">http://www.housingchronicles.com/2008/10/car-predicts-home-prices-will-decline.html</a>
 
Informed Decisions,



Honest question: but earlier you said buyers are looking for lifestyle, comfort, a place to raise their family, and all that sort of thing. They're not driven by fear, greed, and statistics -- nor do national or global market conditions matter.



Do you really believe this to be true that people will base the biggest investment decisions of their lives without thinking about the bigger picture of what's happening in the world around them? Stocks have plummeted and so have home prices. People are obviously fearful of the former but what makes you believe that people would be willing to plunge into the latter? Locally is there any industry that is a major employer where people have an optimistic outlook for the near future?



Where are the homebuyers going to come from?
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224917709][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224914560]BTW, everyone, please be nice to ID. It is nice to have a bull around.</blockquote>


For the record, I am neither a bull nor a bear. I am a realist.



To illustrate my point: I bought my first home in Irvine in Spring 2003, mentally prepared that it would drop 20% in price. I bought it for my growing family and the best schools, I didn't look to make a quick profit. I still hold it today as rental ($4500 monthly gross rent, compared to $478K original price). </blockquote>


Whoa there. You bought a place for $478K in Spring 2003 that you rent out for $4500? Uh, that seems quite implausible. In Spring 2003, 1600sf condos were selling for $450K or so. Your place couldn't be much bigger. At best, probably 2000sf I'd think. How in the world can you rent that for $4500 today? $4500 per month will get you a nearly 2500-3000sf SFR in a premium Irvine neighborhood... What are the specs on this rental, i.e. size, neighborhood, etc.?
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1224921906]

Seriously, ID, you may want to go back a year or two in the old posts and see exactly who it is you are dealing with. I do not care to swell their heads, but there are folks in here who are so intelligent and well informed that you will not believe how lucky you are that you have chanced upon them. They open my eyes on a constant basis.</blockquote>


Oh stop it awgee, you are making me blush... :)
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224917709][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224914560]BTW, everyone, please be nice to ID. It is nice to have a bull around.</blockquote>


For the record, I am neither a bull nor a bear. I am a realist.



To illustrate my point: I bought my first home in Irvine in Spring 2003, mentally prepared that it would drop 20% in price. I bought it for my growing family and the best schools, I didn't look to make a quick profit. I still hold it today as rental ($4500 monthly gross rent, compared to $478K original price). I jumped the gun last Nov to buy a forelclosure as primary residence (monthly mortgage payment approx $2300, with close to $499 in principal). I knew it might not be the lowest price yet, but I were able to get finaced then at 5.25% fixed 30 years.)</blockquote>


<img src="http://www.dvorak.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/bullshit_detector.gif" alt="" />



Not buying this.
 
[quote author="ipoplaya" date=1225152450][quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224917709][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224914560]BTW, everyone, please be nice to ID. It is nice to have a bull around.</blockquote>


For the record, I am neither a bull nor a bear. I am a realist.



To illustrate my point: I bought my first home in Irvine in Spring 2003, mentally prepared that it would drop 20% in price. I bought it for my growing family and the best schools, I didn't look to make a quick profit. I still hold it today as rental ($4500 monthly gross rent, compared to $478K original price). </blockquote>


Whoa there. You bought a place for $478K in Spring 2003 that you rent out for $4500? Uh, that seems quite implausible. In Spring 2003, 1600sf condos were selling for $450K or so. Your place couldn't be much bigger. At best, probably 2000sf I'd think. How in the world can you rent that for $4500 today? $4500 per month will get you a nearly 2500-3000sf SFR in a premium Irvine neighborhood... What are the specs on this rental, i.e. size, neighborhood, etc.?</blockquote>


I paid $2300 to rent a house $800K+ in 2004. I have the biggest lot so it should fetch more. Someone in my neighborhood actually paid $949K for similar house in 2006. He has sold for $250K less.
 
ID, The problem arises when you think that:

1) you and the others have MERELY a difference of opinion

2) you have no interest in debating based on MERITS and FACTS

3) you have a natural bias against anyone who has a bearish view of the situation

4) you assume that people who do not want to buy a home are pessimistic, incapable and unhappy people versus trying to understand why it is that they are bearish



There are a lot of bears on this forum who have spent valuable time trying to understand the economic factors, trends and experience of the veterans in the real estate business <strong>before becoming a bear</strong>. So I think you are treating this discussion as very trivial while rejecting the opposing point of view. You should definitely read some of the analysis with a completely open mind - maybe you might benefit and save yourself a lot of trouble later?

All the best!
 
[quote author="ipoplaya" date=1225152450][quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224917709][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224914560]BTW, everyone, please be nice to ID. It is nice to have a bull around.</blockquote>


For the record, I am neither a bull nor a bear. I am a realist.



To illustrate my point: I bought my first home in Irvine in Spring 2003, mentally prepared that it would drop 20% in price. I bought it for my growing family and the best schools, I didn't look to make a quick profit. I still hold it today as rental ($4500 monthly gross rent, compared to $478K original price). </blockquote>


Whoa there. You bought a place for $478K in Spring 2003 that you rent out for $4500? Uh, that seems quite implausible. In Spring 2003, 1600sf condos were selling for $450K or so. Your place couldn't be much bigger. At best, probably 2000sf I'd think. How in the world can you rent that for $4500 today? $4500 per month will get you a nearly 2500-3000sf SFR in a premium Irvine neighborhood... What are the specs on this rental, i.e. size, neighborhood, etc.?</blockquote>


I just checked rental listings and for the most part, $4500/month gets you 3000+ sf in Irvine. I still wonder how such a home was purchased for $480K in 2003... Where are you ID?
 
[quote author="ipoplaya" date=1225164733]I just checked rental listings and for the most part, $4500/month gets you 3000+ sf in Irvine. I still wonder how such a home was purchased for $480K in 2003... Where are you ID?</blockquote>


Either A:



<img src="http://static.flickr.com/19/115713460_f843d8b4f1_o.jpg" alt="" />



Or B:



<img src="http://compoundthinking.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/istock_000002694919xsmall.jpg" alt="" />



Why let something like "facts" get in the way of a good story.
 
Perhaps that $4500 rent includes incredible gold egg laying goose?



But... it is Irvine.



Back in 2005 I remember when I first put my house up for rent and originally listed it at $2500 and my father thought I was crazy because no one in their right mind would pay that much rent. To spite him I raised it it to $2750 and got 5 applications in less than a week... take that DAD!
 
No_Vas



You have way too much time on your hands to find those great graphics. Go work on your car a while.



Informed Decision



I am a broker in 2 states and had a career in real estate development. Always been pretty "bullish" since most of my retirement income is from rentals and cash made from real estate investments over 25 years. But all good things can come to an end.



By being a "realist" I sold most of my properties and bailed out of SoCal 1.5 years ago and moved to another state. At this time I wouldn't even consider working in that industry.(Not that I have to work)



As far as investments in residential property go I wouldn't even consider looking for another 18-24 months. We may hit the low point then but may not see the return on investment for 10 years or so. Depending on future tax laws and which way the lending business shakes out Real Estate as a true "investment" may be dead for many years.



This is the third big downturn that I have seen and was in the middle of the last two as VP Sales/Marketing for several public builders. This does give me a perspective that others may not have based on the history of real estate boom/bust cycles . This one went way up and is going farther down. The entire worldwide economic structure is involved so the outcome will be differant from the past.



As Kenny Rodgers said, "You got to know when to hold them-and know when to fold them".



Another change is the high degree of knowledge shared via the internet and boards such as this one. People have access to much more information than during the last two busts and it is shared much more rapidly. Knowledge and information equals informed decisions so it is hard to ride in here spouting off unrealistic or unsupported views.



My advice to you is to follow The Rule of the Hole which is when you find yourself in a hole the first thing to do is to quit digging.



Put the Kool-Aid down and step away from the door.



Enjoy!
 
[quote author="xsocal land merchant" date=1225177698]



Knowledge and information equals informed decisions ... </blockquote>


Can I get an Amen!?
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1225190983][quote author="xsocal land merchant" date=1225177698]



Knowledge and information equals informed decisions ... </blockquote>


Can I get an Amen!?</blockquote>


... And all the people said...



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