Heads up people - No on Prop 8 people are coming straight into your church to get in your face

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Religion and God(s) are two separate things. Religion was created by human beings. Religion is nothing more than a way to control people through use of coecion and fear. It is no different than any other geopolitical system. Any system that is devised and controlled by man(and women) is prone to mistakes and corruption. Why is it that the most powerful people in the islamic world brainwash innocent youths into killing themselves instead of leading by example? If they really believed this garbage, they would blow themselves up.



You can believe in God(s) or any other deity for that matter without religious indoctrination. I strongly believe that if there is a GOD he/she is probably really pissed off at how bad we screwed things up. If there is a God, no one can tell you about him/her; you really just have to believeit yourself. You must do your own soul searching, not because you were told about God/Allah/Vishnu etc since you were born.
 
[quote author="skek" date=1226737351][quote author="three sheets" date=1226732874]Jesus may not have been political but Paul was overtly political. When you take into consideration that over 50% of the New Testament (rough estimate) is attributible to Paul, it's no surprise that many modern day Christians think politically.</blockquote>


Do you remember when liberation theology was all the rage? It often ran hand in hand with Marxist movements in latin America (not to mention a number of Ivy League universities).</blockquote>


Yes. Liberation Theology had roots in the Social Gospel and Neo Orthodoxy movements in Pre WWII America. Reinhold Niebuhr (most famous as the author of the serenity prayer) was a leader of the Neo Orthodoxy movement as well as a vocal socialist. He became one of Martin Luther King's biggest influences, if not the biggest. Which brings up an interesting point: The civil rights movement was unquestionably a movement rooted in religious ideology. Why is it that we are so quick to point out the bad byproducts of religion and slow to give credit when religion produces progress?



It's always worth noting also that purely secular societies have a horrible track record when it comes to human rights...
 
[quote author="three sheets" date=1226739255]It's always worth noting also that purely secular societies have a horrible track record when it comes to human rights...</blockquote>


As well as it bears mentioning the fact that a lot of atrocities have been committed in the name of religion (human sacrifice, inquisition, crusades, witch hunts, ethno-religious cleansing, 30 year war, ...).
 
Well, this has turned into quite the discussion... it's very nice to see a good debate and people being respectful of each other.



A quick few thoughts/comments as I'm headed off to work:



-I am an atheist and do not believe in g-d. I believe that we evolved, ala Darwin. I've stated this on the blog elsewhere, so it's not new information.



-I was only referring to winex as a nut job. I mean, he is the only one that called us gays "sexual deviants". At least the rest of you have refrained, even though you may think it....therefore he earns my nut job status because he doesn't know where to draw the line.



-It's quite possible that someone in the mormon church sent themselves the envelope containing powder. I'd go 50/50 on that right now.



-Even though I don't believe in g-d, I think religion is an individual choice that is good for society. Caveat: as long as your religion doesn't try and invade my laws..... case in point, Prop 8. I don't believe it would have passed if it weren't for religion and the bible.



-I have extremely high morals and values/ethics and don't need religion in my life to prove that.



-I think the protests should now move away from the religious establishments. The point has been made....



-most gays believe in god and are religious. I happen to be an exception to the rule.



So, since I'm not religious, I don't think I'll have much to add to this thread....I just wanted to get those few thoughts out.



If you choose to debate something amongst yourselves, consider this question : Didn't jesus <em>fight</em> for the oppressed ?
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1226742733]Well, this has turned into quite the discussion... it's very nice to see a good debate and people being respectful of each other.



A quick few thoughts/comments as I'm headed off to work:



-I am an atheist and do not believe in g-d. I believe that we evolved, ala Darwin. I've stated this on the blog elsewhere, so it's not new information.



-I was only referring to winex as a nut job. I mean, he is the only one that called us gays "sexual deviants". At least the rest of you have refrained, even though you may think it....therefore he earns my nut job status because he doesn't know where to draw the line.

</blockquote>


I'm sorry if you are offended, but the fact is that homosexuality is deviant behavior. Despite what Kinsey says, homosexuals are about 2% of the population. Even if you took Kinsey's numbers are valid, they are about 10% of the population. That is well outside the norm, and thus fits the definition of "deviant".



If you don't like being called deviant, then it is up to you to change your behavior.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226751127][quote author="Trooper" date=1226742733]Well, this has turned into quite the discussion... it's very nice to see a good debate and people being respectful of each other.



A quick few thoughts/comments as I'm headed off to work:



-I am an atheist and do not believe in g-d. I believe that we evolved, ala Darwin. I've stated this on the blog elsewhere, so it's not new information.



-I was only referring to winex as a nut job. I mean, he is the only one that called us gays "sexual deviants". At least the rest of you have refrained, even though you may think it....therefore he earns my nut job status because he doesn't know where to draw the line.

</blockquote>


I'm sorry if you are offended, but the fact is that homosexuality is deviant behavior. Despite what Kinsey says, homosexuals are about 2% of the population. Even if you took Kinsey's numbers are valid, they are about 10% of the population. That is well outside the norm, and thus fits the definition of "deviant".



If you don't like being called deviant, then it is up to you to change your behavior.</blockquote>


It's like saying that if are born black that you should bleach your skin and become white. Since blacks only represent about 14% of the population are they outside the norm? Should they conform to your homogenized view of society? I know you don't believe in reading scientifically validate studies and you might get the wrong idea about what is fact and fiction. The consensus is that you are born gay.
 
I wonder who in this thread is married? If so, then did you have sex before marriage? If not married, then do you have sex outside of marriage, and if so isn't that deviant behavior? I mean... all sins are created equal and all, and would mean that plenty of people are participating in deviant behavior, and not just those who are gay. In other words, the deviant people in our population would increase significantly when compared to just gay people. I guess that makes me deviant, and equal to Trooper in being deviant. It could also explain why some are so cranky by not being deviant.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226751127]I'm sorry if you are offended, but the fact is that homosexuality is deviant behavior.</blockquote>


Actually, that is <em>your</em> opinion, not a fact.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1226755583][quote author="WINEX" date=1226751127]I'm sorry if you are offended, but the fact is that homosexuality is deviant behavior.</blockquote>


Actually, that is <em>your</em> opinion, not a fact.</blockquote>




de?vi?ant (d?'v?-?nt) Pronunciation Key

adj. Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

n. One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.





Approximately 2% of the population is homosexual. That is far outside the norm and accepted standards of society. By definition, homosexuality is deviant behavior.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226756283][quote author="graphrix" date=1226755583][quote author="WINEX" date=1226751127]I'm sorry if you are offended, but the fact is that homosexuality is deviant behavior.</blockquote>


Actually, that is <em>your</em> opinion, not a fact.</blockquote>




de?vi?ant (d?'v?-?nt) Pronunciation Key

adj. Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

n. One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.





Approximately 2% of the population is homosexual. That is far outside the norm and accepted standards of society. By definition, homosexuality is deviant behavior.</blockquote>


Please read the post before that one. Maybe you are deviant too, or maybe not...
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1226755468]I wonder who in this thread is married? If so, then did you have sex before marriage? If not married, then do you have sex outside of marriage, and if so isn't that deviant behavior? I mean... all sins are created equal and all, and would mean that plenty of people are participating in deviant behavior, and not just those who are gay. In other words, the deviant people in our population would increase significantly when compared to just gay people. I guess that makes me deviant, and equal to Trooper in being deviant. It could also explain why some are so cranky by not being deviant.</blockquote>


The <a href="http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:tczGjZJOjTkJ:www.publichealthreports.org/userfiles/122_1/12_PHR122-1_73-78.pdf+percent+have+premarital+sex&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us">vast majority of Americans have premarital sex</a>. So, those who don't are the deviants.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226756283]

de?vi?ant (d?'v?-?nt) Pronunciation Key

adj. Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

n. One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.

</blockquote>


As I have said before, WINEX is a deviant.
 
Winex is correct in his use of the word deviant. You guys are attacking the wrong argument. It is the implication that being deviant is wrong that you should be discussing.



Everyone who invests and makes money is deviant. Going with the herd is a path to losses.



Also, the mass acceptance of a certain behavior does not mean it is "right." Slavery was widely accepted for centuries. Did that make it right? The first countries that outlawed slavery were deviant. Did that make them wrong?
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1226802181]Winex is correct in his use of the word deviant. You guys are attacking the wrong argument. It is the implication that being deviant is wrong that you should be discussing.



Everyone who invests and makes money is deviant. Going with the herd is a path to losses.



Also, the mass acceptance of a certain behavior does not mean it is "right." Slavery was widely accepted for centuries. Did that make it right? The first countries that outlawed slavery were deviant. Did that make them wrong?</blockquote>


There is some nuance to the use of this word. To be deviant is to <strong>behave</strong> in a way that does not fit a social norm. For example, not paying for something you are "supposed" to pay. If this meaning is extrapolated to sexual identity it assumes at its root that it is a behavior. That is, it is common for a man to chose to be attracted to a woman (and vice versa) because that is the social norm (not because there is a biological reason for this). By calling gay people deviant, he is clearly stating that sexual identity is merely a choice in his eye. In this sense his use of "deviant" is completely incorrect. If the intend was to refer to same sex couples as something that is less common, there are a number of different words that can be used that do not infer behavior.



The synonyms for "deviant" will hopefully help to illustrate why it is so offensive in this context:



<em>

Synonyms for deviant

Noun



1. pervert, deviant, deviate, degenerate, reprobate, miscreant

usage: a person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior



Adjective



1. aberrant, deviant, abnormal (vs. normal)

usage: markedly different from an accepted norm; "aberrent behavior"; "deviant ideas" a person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior [syn: pervert]

</em>
 
[quote author="skek" date=1226713543]It's always fun to watch atheists tout their intellectual superiority. But, as I've posted before, keep in mind that nearly 95% of Americans believe in God. 83% believe in a personal God. Nearly 6 in 10 agree with the statement: "I know God exists and I have no doubts about it." <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/wat/archive/wat060198.htm">Source</a>.



While you can mock religion all you want, and not all religions are created equal certainly, you ought to be thankful that you live in a country where such a small, insignificant minority is allowed unlimited freedom of speech and freedom of religion (or, in your case, freedom to hate religion). Other countries would be less tolerant. So, you're welcome for that.</blockquote>


I didn't see anyone touting their intellectual superiority, but implying that putting one's theology into the public square was not welcome. I happen to think that you can you disagree with a theology and its enshrinement in the law without hating religion. They are two different things.



A couple of other points:



When I contemplating D School, I toured a couple of campuses and spent some time with the profs and students and attending some seminars. I would suggest that if more (Protestant) church attendees were educated with as their pastors were, the churches would be different in a way that I think is more positive. The D school profs and their students seemed to be fascinated by ambiguity.



Similarly, it seems to me that the essence of faith is not believing in God without doubt, but believing in God <em>despite</em> your doubts.



<strong>Edit:</strong> With respect to not all religions being created equally, is that a personal opinion? I'm just curious, because the Supreme Court found that <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=508&page=520">Santeria was a religion deserving of protection under the First Amendment.</a>
 
[quote author="skek" date=1226718690]Also, out of curiosity, you say that it is a shame that Christians use "Muslim" as a slur, yet many of the posters here seem to use "Christian" or "religion" as a slur.<blockquote>



Qui et ou?
 
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