Do you know people who are likely to lose their homes?

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"Less than a year and a half ago, Palmer was making $70,000 as a property manager and living in the condo he bought in 2000 for $198,000.



For years, he had handily made his $1,275 mortgage payment at a fixed rate of 12.75 percent.



A health issue he declined to discuss forced him to take out an adjustable-rate home-equity loan to pay for drugs that weren?t covered by insurance.



In January 2007, Palmer got a letter from his lender telling him his mortgage was going up to $2,850 per month. The higher payments started depleting his savings.



Then, in June 2007, his mortgage payment was adjusted upward again, to $3,550.



Palmer couldn?t afford it."



Does anyone else smell bullshit here? How much money did this guy pull out for "drugs that weren?t covered by insurance?"



If he was already in a ridiculously high interest rate loan, and his fully-amortized payment was $1,275 per month, and he refinanced into an ARM that would have had a much lower interest rate, the only way his payment could have adjusted upward to $3,550 would be through an enormous amount of mortgage equity withdrawal.
 
"Jereme graduated from UC Irvine?s MBA program in 2004. He and his wife were hopeful that the degree would lead to a bump in his salary in his field of wireless consulting. <strong>(dumb decision #1)</strong>



That didn?t happen.



Because of volatility in the business, Jereme was unable to maintain stable work for more than a year.



He eventually began working as a real estate agent <strong>(dumb decision #2)</strong> ? a common line of work in Ladera, where home prices ballooned until 2006.



The family also dipped into savings from selling their Ladera Ranch home in June 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #3)</strong>



Sunny admits she had dollar signs in her eyes after the value of the house reached $890,000 in 2005 ? $440,000 more than the purchase price four years earlier.



They reasoned they could capitalize on the hot real estate market by using the cash<strong> (dumb decision #4)</strong> to pay off Jereme?s $70,000 in student loans, lease a second car and pay off medical bills.



At the time, friends in the red-hot mortgage industry suggested <strong>(listening -- dumb decision #5) </strong>that the couple do 100-percent financing for a $700,000 house just a couple blocks away from the one they just sold. They ended up buying that house in 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #6)</strong>



?We desperately looked for a rental and nothing seemed to work out,? Sunny said."



.



Could these people have done anything more wrong? Every decision they made was stupid, and I find it hard to have much sympathy for them.



Idiots like this are giving the MBA program in Irvine a bad name. I wouldn't hire this guy to manage a McDonalds.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243205589]"Less than a year and a half ago, Palmer was making $70,000 as a property manager and living in the condo he bought in 2000 for $198,000.



For years, he had handily made his $1,275 mortgage payment at a fixed rate of 12.75 percent.



A health issue he declined to discuss forced him to take out an adjustable-rate home-equity loan to pay for drugs that weren?t covered by insurance.



In January 2007, Palmer got a letter from his lender telling him his mortgage was going up to $2,850 per month. The higher payments started depleting his savings.



Then, in June 2007, his mortgage payment was adjusted upward again, to $3,550.



Palmer couldn?t afford it."



Does anyone else smell bullshit here? How much money did this guy pull out for "drugs that weren?t covered by insurance?"



If he was already in a ridiculously high interest rate loan, and his fully-amortized payment was $1,275 per month, and he refinanced into an ARM that would have had a much lower interest rate, the only way his payment could have adjusted upward to $3,550 would be through an enormous amount of mortgage equity withdrawal.</blockquote>


Exactly what I was thinking when I read this. The bottom line is that I want to feel sorry for people and some of them I actually do, but there always seems to be a few little facts in these stories that the writers leave unexplained. The unexplained parts invariably involve huge amounts of HELOC abuse for some crazy, out of control spending. Is there anyone else bothered by the lack of foresight of people who have 5 children and their only real means of support is a real estate job?
 
"They?ve been paying $1,000 a month on their second mortgage since then as they continue to negotiate with their lender to lower the $2,900 payment. <strong>(still paying on the second? That is stupid.)</strong>



So far, the bank has been willing to try to hammer out an agreement and not send them the Tiffins a notice of default.



?We?re sort of in a holding pattern, waiting to see what will happen,? says Melissa Tiffin, 37, a former public relations specialist who is looking for a job while raising three young daughters with her husband, Bryan, 40.



Bryan Tiffin makes a solid salary as a construction executive for Broadcom, but not enough to handily cover all the family expenses.



The value of stock options he holds have dried up, erasing a potential source of emergency funds. <strong>(stock options as a savings account? That is really stupid.)</strong>



He and his wife have been forced to sell off some possessions, such as a motorcycle. <strong>(I am crying for them. Did they stop taking Vegas vacations too?)</strong>



Once a month, the Tiffins get free groceries from South County Outreach, a Lake Forest non-profit that helps individuals and families in crisis. <strong>(This family has the balls to seek charity?)</strong>



In August 2005, they bought their home for $545,000. It was a not a subprime loan; they got the loan based on two incomes. They wanted a backyard for their children, Ashley, 8, Krista, 7 and Allison, 3. <strong>(They are entitled to live better than responsible people even if it means relying on charity.)</strong>"
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1243172487]

I find that entire situation disgusting. My face scrunched up as I read. Just terrible.</blockquote>


I just saw her make a reply that she sees no moral hazard at all with residing in the house rent-free and having a premeditated plan to purposely stall the process by filing bankruptcy at the midnight hour before it goes to auction. She literally said her and her husband are "doing the bank a favor" by staying in the home rent-free during the foreclosure process. She says that's what the bank wants so as to keep looters away and prevent the home from falling into disrepair. Self-entitlement - table for two? <img src="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/images/smileys/ohoh.gif" alt="" />
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1243206434][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243205589]"Less than a year and a half ago, Palmer was making $70,000 as a property manager and living in the condo he bought in 2000 for $198,000.



For years, he had handily made his $1,275 mortgage payment at a fixed rate of 12.75 percent.



A health issue he declined to discuss forced him to take out an adjustable-rate home-equity loan to pay for drugs that weren?t covered by insurance.



In January 2007, Palmer got a letter from his lender telling him his mortgage was going up to $2,850 per month. The higher payments started depleting his savings.



Then, in June 2007, his mortgage payment was adjusted upward again, to $3,550.



Palmer couldn?t afford it."



Does anyone else smell bullshit here? How much money did this guy pull out for "drugs that weren?t covered by insurance?"



If he was already in a ridiculously high interest rate loan, and his fully-amortized payment was $1,275 per month, and he refinanced into an ARM that would have had a much lower interest rate, the only way his payment could have adjusted upward to $3,550 would be through an enormous amount of mortgage equity withdrawal.</blockquote>


Exactly what I was thinking when I read this. The bottom line is that I want to feel sorry for people and some of them I actually do, but there always seems to be a few little facts in these stories that the writers leave unexplained. The unexplained parts invariably involve huge amounts of HELOC abuse for some crazy, out of control spending. Is there anyone else bothered by the lack of foresight of people who have 5 children and their only real means of support is a real estate job?</blockquote>


This is bull$hit! I got as far as this in the article and I wanted to rant.



First, the article states that Palmer saved $30k for his dream house, assuming he put all $30k down on his house with a rate of 12.75% fixed rate fully amortized loan, then his payment would be $1826 a month not $1275. Even the interest only payment would be $1785 a month. This guy is a liar, and the reporter sucks ass in fact checking the simple math.



Here is some further insight to Palmer's situation that someone would know if they did some fact checking with a lender. He was obviously subprime back in 2000 when he bought his place. The saying in the business goes, once you are subprime you are always subprime. It was total BS when a lender would say don't worry about the rate, in two years you will have cleaned up your credit and can get a better loan/rate. They never did, and they were addicted to MEW like it was crack. Now, back in 2000 people paid the price for being subprime and the spread above prime rates for subprime rates was about 200-800 basis points, usually on the higher side and this guy was obviously on the higher side of subprime at 12.75% (if that was really his rate) because prime rates were in the 7% range. It wasn't until 2004 when the spreads between prime and subprime shrank to 100-500 BPS. Anyway, he kept coming back to refi and decided to get an ARM because he had to pay medical bills, because you can't get a fixed rate loan to pay bills you have to get an ARM. At least from this article, that is what it is implying. Even if he really did have bills to pay, he didn't need to extract that much MEW, or get an adjustable loan, he did it because he wanted it and because someone told him things will be better in the future and you will be able to get out of this. If you check county records, he did refi quite a bit between 04 and 05, and was a first payment default four months later after his refi in 05. So then he lived there rent free for year and a half before they foreclosed on him. So it really wasn't the payment adjustment that bit him, it was the MEW that bit him in which he never intended to make a payment on. Good fact checking OCR, you suck and it is hack reporting like this as to why you are bankrupt.



I don't even want to get started on the dumb breeders in Ladera. They are so stupid that they are not worth my time.



Like IR said, this whole homeless meme is a crock of sh*t. I wanna see breeder man at the Crown Valley off ramp with his entire family selling oranges before I call him homeless. This article just pisses me off. Yeah, I'm bitter when I pay my bills and don't get in over my head, and these losers get a sympathy puff piece from the OCR. These people should be mocked, and made an example of what not to do. Don't buy stuff you can't afford. Man... people really are stupid.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243205589]"Less than a year and a half ago, Palmer was making $70,000 as a property manager and living in the condo he bought in 2000 for $198,000.



For years, he had handily made his $1,275 mortgage payment at a fixed rate of 12.75 percent.



A health issue he declined to discuss forced him to take out an adjustable-rate home-equity loan to pay for drugs that weren?t covered by insurance.



In January 2007, Palmer got a letter from his lender telling him his mortgage was going up to $2,850 per month. The higher payments started depleting his savings.



Then, in June 2007, his mortgage payment was adjusted upward again, to $3,550.



Palmer couldn?t afford it."



Does anyone else smell bullshit here? How much money did this guy pull out for "drugs that weren?t covered by insurance?"



If he was already in a ridiculously high interest rate loan, and his fully-amortized payment was $1,275 per month, and he refinanced into an ARM that would have had a much lower interest rate, the only way his payment could have adjusted upward to $3,550 would be through an enormous amount of mortgage equity withdrawal.</blockquote>


I thought his story was BS too. He could have re-fied into a 5% or so fixed rate, which would have saved him a few hundred a month.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243206408]"Jereme graduated from UC Irvine?s MBA program in 2004. He and his wife were hopeful that the degree would lead to a bump in his salary in his field of wireless consulting. <strong>(dumb decision #1)</strong>



That didn?t happen.



Because of volatility in the business, Jereme was unable to maintain stable work for more than a year.



He eventually began working as a real estate agent <strong>(dumb decision #2)</strong> ? a common line of work in Ladera, where home prices ballooned until 2006.



The family also dipped into savings from selling their Ladera Ranch home in June 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #3)</strong>



Sunny admits she had dollar signs in her eyes after the value of the house reached $890,000 in 2005 ? $440,000 more than the purchase price four years earlier.



They reasoned they could capitalize on the hot real estate market by using the cash<strong> (dumb decision #4)</strong> to pay off Jereme?s $70,000 in student loans, lease a second car and pay off medical bills.



I couldn't figure out why the kept having so many kids, particularly during the worst of their financial hardships.kjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj



At the time, friends in the red-hot mortgage industry suggested <strong>(listening -- dumb decision #5) </strong>that the couple do 100-percent financing for a $700,000 house just a couple blocks away from the one they just sold. They ended up buying that house in 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #6)</strong>



?We desperately looked for a rental and nothing seemed to work out,? Sunny said."



.



Could these people have done anything more wrong? Every decision they made was stupid, and I find it hard to have much sympathy for them.



Idiots like this are giving the MBA program in Irvine a bad name. I wouldn't hire this guy to manage a McDonalds.</blockquote>
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243205280]



Bryan Tiffin makes a solid salary as a construction executive for Broadcom, but not enough to handily cover all the family expenses.



He and his wife have been forced to sell off some possessions, such as a motorcycle.



Once a month, the Tiffins get free groceries from South County Outreach, a Lake Forest non-profit that helps individuals and families in crisis.



They wanted a backyard for their children, Ashley, 8, Krista, 7 and Allison, 3.



They can downsize, but desperately want to stay.



Contact the writer: (949) 454-7356 or ghardesty@ocregister.com </blockquote>


Non-profit organizations are struggling in this economy and this story will do nothing but piss off the good people in our county who donate to South County Outreach. Each of these stories pissed me off, but this story put me in a horrible mood. So a Broadcom executive has been forced to sell off his motorcycle to live in a house that he and his wife cannot afford and shouldn't have purchased in the first place. But they had to buy it, they needed the yard for their kids because there are no decent parks in South OC. Sure, they can downsize into a rental house or apartment, but they desperately want to stay, and they'll even seek out groceries that should be reserved for families in crisis to do so! I'm happy the OCR invited readers to contact the writer; I just might.



Edited to add: I think each of us should call both writers next week.
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1243211850][quote author="caycifish" date=1243172487]

I find that entire situation disgusting. My face scrunched up as I read. Just terrible.</blockquote>


I just saw her make a reply that she sees no moral hazard at all with residing in the house rent-free and having a premeditated plan to purposely stall the process by filing bankruptcy at the midnight hour before it goes to auction. She literally said her and her husband are "doing the bank a favor" by staying in the home rent-free during the foreclosure process. She says that's what the bank wants so as to keep looters away and prevent the home from falling into disrepair. Self-entitlement - table for two? <img src="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/images/smileys/ohoh.gif" alt="" /></blockquote>


Not only that, what about the ex who let her keep living in the house who is now getting shafted? What will this do to his credit score? I think I hate that woman.
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1243258679]

Not only that, what about the ex who let her keep living in the house who is now getting shafted? What will this do to his credit score? I think I hate that woman.</blockquote>


Here's what she says about that part of it (copy & paste):



"My ex is going to shit a brick. Yeah, I think I mentioned that he is still on the mortgage. This pretty much means he is going to have to file too, unless he wants to negotiate with the bank and move in or something. I'm sure he doesn't. I wish it hadn't turned out that this effects him, but there's nothing I can do about it. The thought makes me ill."



(The next day...)



"After the lawyer visit, I called and had a conversation with my ex. God, that SUCKED. Having to tell him I was going to dump the mortgage on him was awful. However, he took it really well - I didn't know it, but I guess he's f$%ked up all the work I did on cleaning his credit reports and overextended himself (his new car, flat screen TV and leather couch - I guess this adds up in my head now), so without hesitation he said he would probably file for bankruptcy to get out of it all. He didn't seem overly upset or pissed at me. I think I was more pissed at him when I realized what he had done to undo all my hard work. I don't think that even makes a lot of sense when you think it through - me dumping this mortgage on him is going to screw up his credit anyway. Oh well, I was still angry inside at him."
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243206408]

Idiots like this are giving the MBA program in Irvine a bad name. I wouldn't hire this guy to manage a McDonalds.</blockquote>


Kinda OT hyjack:



I don't think it was on purpose, but the diss of McDonalds managers is out of line. I know a couple of franchisee owners, and sat next to a manager and a franchisee while eating lunch today (they were having a meeting). Being a McDonalds manager is a decent wage (for somebody with little education) because it's WAY HARD work and requires you to be very good at all functional areas.



While I was in MBA school, I heard the head of the department toss "Taco Bell Managers" under the bus. I thought to myself "like, what - you're opposed to honest work?" (believe it or not, I held my tounge). The audience of faculty and select students all laughed like hell. I resented most of them from that point on.



<object width="325" height="250"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/youtube" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="325" height="250"></embed></object>



Sorry for the pet peeve hyjack.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1243345136][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243206408]

Idiots like this are giving the MBA program in Irvine a bad name. I wouldn't hire this guy to manage a McDonalds.</blockquote>


Kinda OT hyjack:



I don't think it was on purpose, but the diss of McDonalds managers is out of line. I know a couple of franchisee owners, and sat next to a manager and a franchisee while eating lunch today (they were having a meeting). Being a McDonalds manager is a decent wage (for somebody with little education) because it's WAY HARD work and requires you to be very good at all functional areas.



While I was in MBA school, I heard the head of the department toss "Taco Bell Managers" under the bus. I thought to myself "like, what - you're opposed to honest work?" (believe it or not, I held my tounge). The audience of faculty and select students all laughed like hell. I resented most of them from that point on.



Sorry for the pet peeve hyjack.</blockquote>


Nothing like a business in which you have to produce a real and measurable product (ex. burger, taco) and collect real profits as you go, to judge good managers by.

Unlike, say, financial services where the more imaginary stuff you pretend to make, the more ficticious profits and bigger bonuses you can get ...



Food services manager: "We sold 100 more burgers today, that's fantastic!"



Financial services manager with MBA: "Instead of loaning Wimpy enough money for a hamburger today to be paid back Tuesday, we lent him enough money for 100 burgers! The plan is that each week he will carry his next burger forward instead of paying on Tuesday. We estimate that in 5 years time, we will make 10000% profit when his burger balloon payment is due and he pays us back for all the burgers! Let's book that profit today and pay ourselves a big bonus, we rock as financial managers!"
 
Home Rescue Programs is delivering a free seminar in Irvine next week (and five other cities) on the subject of Loan Modification solutions and how real estate, mortgage and financial professionals can earn fees working with us. If this is of interest, please come see us!



See video invitation from our President here: http://www.homerescueprograms.com/cms-registration_1.html



Come get a better understanding of the important work that needs to be done and how we compensate real estate, mortgage and financial professional while providing the tools and technology to our affiliates so we can work together and make a difference for distressed Home Owners.



See video invitation from our Vice President here:http://www.homerescueprograms.com/cms-register_2.html

Thank you!
 
[quote author="HRP" date=1243640280]Home Rescue Programs is delivering a free seminar in Irvine next week (and five other cities) on the subject of Loan Modification solutions and how real estate, mortgage and financial professionals can earn fees working with us. If this is of interest, please come see us!



See video invitation from our President here: http://www.homerescueprograms.com/cms-registration_1.html



Come get a better understanding of the important work that needs to be done and how we compensate real estate, mortgage and financial professional while providing the tools and technology to our affiliates so we can work together and make a difference for distressed Home Owners.



See video invitation from our Vice President here:http://www.homerescueprograms.com/cms-register_2.html

Thank you!</blockquote>


Nice first post...... *sigh*
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243206408]"Jereme graduated from UC Irvine?s MBA program in 2004. He and his wife were hopeful that the degree would lead to a bump in his salary in his field of wireless consulting. <strong>(dumb decision #1)</strong>



That didn?t happen.



Because of volatility in the business, Jereme was unable to maintain stable work for more than a year.



He eventually began working as a real estate agent <strong>(dumb decision #2)</strong> ? a common line of work in Ladera, where home prices ballooned until 2006.



The family also dipped into savings from selling their Ladera Ranch home in June 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #3)</strong>



Sunny admits she had dollar signs in her eyes after the value of the house reached $890,000 in 2005 ? $440,000 more than the purchase price four years earlier.



They reasoned they could capitalize on the hot real estate market by using the cash<strong> (dumb decision #4)</strong> to pay off Jereme?s $70,000 in student loans, lease a second car and pay off medical bills.



At the time, friends in the red-hot mortgage industry suggested <strong>(listening -- dumb decision #5) </strong>that the couple do 100-percent financing for a $700,000 house just a couple blocks away from the one they just sold. They ended up buying that house in 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #6)</strong>



?We desperately looked for a rental and nothing seemed to work out,? Sunny said."



.



Could these people have done anything more wrong? Every decision they made was stupid, and I find it hard to have much sympathy for them.



Idiots like this are giving the MBA program in Irvine a bad name. I wouldn't hire this guy to manage a McDonalds.</blockquote>


Having 6 kids IMO was also a dumb decision.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1243645769][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1243206408]"Jereme graduated from UC Irvine?s MBA program in 2004. He and his wife were hopeful that the degree would lead to a bump in his salary in his field of wireless consulting. <strong>(dumb decision #1)</strong>



That didn?t happen.



Because of volatility in the business, Jereme was unable to maintain stable work for more than a year.



He eventually began working as a real estate agent <strong>(dumb decision #2)</strong> ? a common line of work in Ladera, where home prices ballooned until 2006.



The family also dipped into savings from selling their Ladera Ranch home in June 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #3)</strong>



Sunny admits she had dollar signs in her eyes after the value of the house reached $890,000 in 2005 ? $440,000 more than the purchase price four years earlier.



They reasoned they could capitalize on the hot real estate market by using the cash<strong> (dumb decision #4)</strong> to pay off Jereme?s $70,000 in student loans, lease a second car and pay off medical bills.



At the time, friends in the red-hot mortgage industry suggested <strong>(listening -- dumb decision #5) </strong>that the couple do 100-percent financing for a $700,000 house just a couple blocks away from the one they just sold. They ended up buying that house in 2005. <strong>(dumb decision #6)</strong>



?We desperately looked for a rental and nothing seemed to work out,? Sunny said."



.



Could these people have done anything more wrong? Every decision they made was stupid, and I find it hard to have much sympathy for them.



Idiots like this are giving the MBA program in Irvine a bad name. I wouldn't hire this guy to manage a McDonalds.</blockquote>


Having 6 kids IMO was also a dumb decision.</blockquote>
Maybe they wanted to have their own hockey/field hockey team. I give props to the wife for going through 6 child births. It's unfortunate that their income level will be difficult to raise those 6 kids.
 
I just received this email from a reader:



<blockquote>Hello IHB,



I'm a renter in San Jose. I work at a law firm as a counselor in waiting. One of my coworkers recently announced he was going to buy a condo. It's a new building, just recently thrown up, and he announced he was purchasing a third story unit, 1280 sq ft, a one car garage in a row of garages below, and a patio big enough for 2 chairs and no bbq allowed (but it's got granite and stainless!) for the low low price of $400K.



I lived in this neighborhood for 2 years until last May. It's awful. the 7-11 across the street routinely has vagrants drinking and sleeping in the parking lot. There is a light rail track that constantly stops traffic. And, as it turns out, the condo building is across the street from a halfway house where the state of California releases mentally challenged inmates that cannot be reintroduced directly into the community. The police used my driveway twice to conduct searches of cars they pulled over because they knew that we were not violent criminals and felt safe about using our space. My neighbor was attacked in broad daylight and his truck was stolen. Someone pulled a gun on my other neighbor at 7:30 AM, but then ran away, and the police assured us it was a mistake and the gang bangers had the wrong house (Oh, you mean they could have accidentally come to my house?)



My point/ question is, that when someone announces that they're going to be homeowners, and especially first time homeowners, everyone oohs and aahs and congratulates and smiles. I was the only one who did not. I asked a coworker if it's proper for me to pull him aside and think long and hard and tell him my experiences in that neighborhood. Everyone, including my mother, told me that would be rude and that it's absolutely not my place to do so.



Anyway, on the day they signed the papers, they discovered the halfway house for mental inmates, which was buried in flowery language somewhere in the CC&R's, and their second night their garage was broken into and all of my coworker's prized musical instruments were stolen.



I have also had other friends buy pointless, horrible property in other places and one has chosen foreclosure and walked away to live with her parents, destroying her and her husband's credit for years after the condo they bought for $450 was appraised in the low 200s. Another is having their marriage dissolve after the wife nagged the husband into buying a house in a highly overinflated area at the peak, where the house has lost 50% of its value.



When is it proper for someone to speak up and stop the madness? Had I had the balls to tell my coworker not to buy there, I might be an a-hole raining on his parade, but he wouldn't have lost $10K in musical instruments and be living across from a minimum security psych ward. Was I wrong not to speak up, put a fake smile on and congratulate?</blockquote>
 
<blockquote> <strong>When is it proper for someone to speak up and stop the madness?</strong> Had I had the balls to tell my coworker not to buy there, I might be an a-hole raining on his parade, but he wouldn?t have lost $10K in musical instruments and be living across from a minimum security psych ward. Was I wrong not to speak up, put a fake smile on and congratulate?</blockquote>


When they ask for advice, and at no other time.



Had this person piped up, the person would of bought it anyway, and then they'd of projected on them bad karma or some other nonsense because there's NO WAY "it could of been my fault".
 
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