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Perhaps our resident medical folks can chime in on this, or IHO :-)

I just read an article on CNBC about the Texas governor delaying elective surgeries in 8 counties to ensure they have beds for covid patients. I know pretty much everyone did that back in March, etc.

What is the rationale for essentially giving covid patients priority over the elective surgeries. They say it?s elective but in some cases these things can become life threatening. For example what it the elective surgery is cancer related and they postpone and it ends up spreading faster than expected and the person dies. What is the basis of prioritizing the yet to arrive covid patient?  Is logistics (lead time prepping the hospital) or is just that a covid patient can deteriorate quicker than the cancer patient?

Thanks in advance.
 
qwerty said:
Perhaps our resident medical folks can chime in on this, or IHO :-)

I just read an article on CNBC about the Texas governor delaying elective surgeries in 8 counties to ensure they have beds for covid patients. I know pretty much everyone did that back in March, etc.

What is the rationale for essentially giving covid patients priority over the elective surgeries. They say it?s elective but in some cases these things can become life threatening. For example what it the elective surgery is cancer related and they postpone and it ends up spreading faster than expected and the person dies. What is the basis of prioritizing the yet to arrive covid patient?  Is logistics (lead time prepping the hospital) or is just that a covid patient can deteriorate quicker than the cancer patient?

Thanks in advance.
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test run for socialized medicine  ;)
 
qwerty said:
Perhaps our resident medical folks can chime in on this, or IHO :-)

I just read an article on CNBC about the Texas governor delaying elective surgeries in 8 counties to ensure they have beds for covid patients. I know pretty much everyone did that back in March, etc.

What is the rationale for essentially giving covid patients priority over the elective surgeries. They say it?s elective but in some cases these things can become life threatening. For example what it the elective surgery is cancer related and they postpone and it ends up spreading faster than expected and the person dies. What is the basis of prioritizing the yet to arrive covid patient?  Is logistics (lead time prepping the hospital) or is just that a covid patient can deteriorate quicker than the cancer patient?

Thanks in advance.
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Elective surgery by definition is a surgery you choose to have for a better quality of life, but not for a life-threatening condition.

In a cancer patient's case, it probably means that other non-surgical treatment options are available to manage the cancer. If the patient's condition changed/evolved to a point where not having a surgical procedure becomes life threatening, then it's no longer considered an elective procedure.

Hospitals still prioritize & perform urgent or emergency surgeries despite COVID-19.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
Kenkoko had a post earlier that misreporting can constitute fraud and that's not something hospitals would want to do.

It would be an outlier if only one or two hospitals were saying this but it's several... across the nation.

You need to work on your Google skills, look up Houston's hospitals.
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Hospitals, especially large chains, have very little incentive to misreport. It's not only committing fraud, but it's difficult to not get caught because of how our system is setup.

Unlike countries with single payer system, we essentially have a double gate-keeping system with insurance. Hospitals have large financial incentives to keep good records&data to get paid timely and avoid costly litigation. Externally, hospital records and data are also heavily scrutinized by insurance companies looking for ways to not pay, thus ensuring its accuracy.

Data accuracy is actually one of the core competency of our healthcare system. Unlike other countries with just one centralized agency, we report data from the bottom up. The data goes though cities, counties, states, before reaching the federal agencies. It's very hard to fudge because there's a long trail to follow. It's an inefficient (and costly) way to collect data, but layers upon layers of bureaucracy does ensure its accuracy.

I think another TI poster said hospitals are making huge profits by slapping COVID codes on patients. That's really a fabricated story. Hospitals are losing money by expanding space to accommodate COVID patients & transitioning to COVID care. Hospitals run just like most other types of businesses. They are reluctant to put down new capital expenditures for new equipment and furlough/layoff employees who cannot transition to COVID care. This is why medicare had to increase payout for COVID to compensate for hospital losses. And really to grease the wheel to force this transition that hospitals are initially reluctant to make without compensation.

 
Kings said:
this just in - the protests actually slowed the spread of the virus!

take that all your protest naysayers, go science!

Black Lives Matter protests may have slowed overall spread of coronavirus in Denver and other cities, new study finds

As protests against racism and police violence swept across the country, drawing massive crowds into the streets amid a pandemic, public health officials worried about what the overall impact would be.

Would these protests ? which many health leaders said they support ? also turn out to be virus super-spreading events?

But a new study by a nationwide research team that includes a University of Colorado Denver professor has found something surprising: The protests may have slowed the overall spread of the coronavirus in cities with large demonstrations, including Denver.

?We think that what?s going on is it?s the people who are not going to protest are staying away,? said Andrew Friedson, the CU-Denver professor who is one of the paper?s co-authors. ?The overall effect for the entire city is more social distancing because people are avoiding the protests.?

?We don?t have the direct causation of this uptick,? Polis told reporters last week, noting that there is evidence that some young people who are part of an outbreak in Boulder had attended protests while other outbreaks are tied to social gatherings. ?And we hope this is a trend that is reversed in our state.?

On Monday, a spokesman for the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment said that, while the state has now seen rising numbers of new cases for two consecutive weeks, ?we have not seen any clear association between the protests and an increase in cases.?

The spokesman, Ian Dickson, said the uptick in infections ?may be partly due to some Coloradans changing their behavior ? especially socializing in larger groups, sometimes without proper distancing or mask wearing.?

https://coloradosun.com/2020/06/30/police-protests-coronavirus-spread/
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I listened to the interview of this study (or a study that was similar).

There are other factors like many businesses closing down early, the curfews and the fact that most of these protests were outdoors.

It was interesting because they used "anonymous" cell phone data to track movement to determine how people were social distancing during the protests.

The only problem is that the timelines coincided with the re-openings so we can't be sure if one or the other or both are responsible for this current surge.

One can only look at other countries and see how they are faring better than us due to adherence to safety protocols. I think Ken or eye may have mentioned this but part of the problem is our "freedom"... this entitlement (which you have seen in several viral videos) makes it difficult to get a certain percentage of the population to practice safety which unfortunately will affect everyone else.
 
I mean this BLM protest should have given us new 100,000 cases in Hollywood alone, right? Where are all those numbers? They all went to Riverside and Texas ICU?

Mws3mfPm.jpg


source:https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/hollywood-protest-sunday/[/SIZE][/color]
 
Kenkoko said:
qwerty said:
Perhaps our resident medical folks can chime in on this, or IHO :-)

I just read an article on CNBC about the Texas governor delaying elective surgeries in 8 counties to ensure they have beds for covid patients. I know pretty much everyone did that back in March, etc.

What is the rationale for essentially giving covid patients priority over the elective surgeries. They say it?s elective but in some cases these things can become life threatening. For example what it the elective surgery is cancer related and they postpone and it ends up spreading faster than expected and the person dies. What is the basis of prioritizing the yet to arrive covid patient?  Is logistics (lead time prepping the hospital) or is just that a covid patient can deteriorate quicker than the cancer patient?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

Elective surgery by definition is a surgery you choose to have for a better quality of life, but not for a life-threatening condition.

In a cancer patient's case, it probably means that other non-surgical treatment options are available to manage the cancer. If the patient's condition changed/evolved to a point where not having a surgical procedure becomes life threatening, then it's no longer considered an elective procedure.

Hospitals still prioritize & perform urgent or emergency surgeries despite COVID-19.
Click to expand...

So everyone who couldn't get "elective" procedures didn't get them, didn't go for routine doctor visits, avoided going to the ER, etc. Health care workers got laid off that weren't in the coronavirus areas due to lack of work.

I myself couldn't get my mammogram and waited to get my crown repaired.

So when the hospitals were given the OK to restart elective procedures what happened? They along with the surge coronavirus cases are using the hospital now...?.. less beds because there was a huge backup of "elective" things.

I have to get a colonoscopy but I bet by the time my appointment gets here, we'll be shut down for that again.
 
Ready2Downsize said:
So everyone who couldn't get "elective" procedures didn't get them, didn't go for routine doctor visits, avoided going to the ER, etc. Health care workers got laid off that weren't in the coronavirus areas due to lack of work.

I myself couldn't get my mammogram and waited to get my crown repaired.

So when the hospitals were given the OK to restart elective procedures what happened? They along with the surge coronavirus cases are using the hospital now...?.. less beds because there was a huge backup of "elective" things.

I have to get a colonoscopy but I bet by the time my appointment gets here, we'll be shut down for that again.
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This is unfortunately going to be the new normal for awhile.

What people don't really comprehend is how quickly we will reach healthcare / hospital max capacity. I think the national avg for hospital beds per 1000 population is just below 2.5. California is even lower, a bit under 2 per 1000 population.

Before COVID-19, many hospitals across the US regularly operate with most of their beds taken by patients. This limits their ability to handle a sudden influx of folks sick with COVID-19. Nationally, only about 1 of every 3 U.S. hospital beds is empty on any given day before COVID-19. It's easy to complain about layoffs of healthcare workers, but hospitals need to make a profit to stay open. This is how capitalism works. And many hospitals were already struggling before the pandemic. This isn't just because of COVID-19.

The basic structure of the US healthcare system has only marginally changed since the 1950s. Our system is not built to handle a pandemic seamlessly. It's almost impossible for a system optimized for capital efficiency to all of a sudden make the self determination to handle a rapid surge in patient volume while managing across in-person and virtual care.

Policies on critical healthcare infrastructure, strategic reserves of key supplies, and contingency production facilities for critical medical equipment will need to be addressed after this pandemic is over.
 
Kenkoko said:
Ready2Downsize said:
So everyone who couldn't get "elective" procedures didn't get them, didn't go for routine doctor visits, avoided going to the ER, etc. Health care workers got laid off that weren't in the coronavirus areas due to lack of work.

I myself couldn't get my mammogram and waited to get my crown repaired.

So when the hospitals were given the OK to restart elective procedures what happened? They along with the surge coronavirus cases are using the hospital now...?.. less beds because there was a huge backup of "elective" things.

I have to get a colonoscopy but I bet by the time my appointment gets here, we'll be shut down for that again.
Click to expand...

This is unfortunately going to be the new normal for awhile.

What people don't really comprehend is how quickly we will reach healthcare / hospital max capacity. I think the national avg for hospital beds per 1000 population is just below 2.5. California is even lower, a bit under 2 per 1000 population.

Before COVID-19, many hospitals across the US regularly operate with most of their beds taken by patients. This limits their ability to handle a sudden influx of folks sick with COVID-19. Nationally, only about 1 of every 3 U.S. hospital beds is empty on any given day before COVID-19. It's easy to complain about layoffs of healthcare workers, but hospitals need to make a profit to stay open. This is how capitalism works. And many hospitals were already struggling before the pandemic. This isn't just because of COVID-19.

The basic structure of the US healthcare system has only marginally changed since the 1950s. Our system is not built to handle a pandemic seamlessly. It's almost impossible for a system optimized for capital efficiency to all of a sudden make the self determination to handle a rapid surge in patient volume while managing across in-person and virtual care.

Policies on critical healthcare infrastructure, strategic reserves of key supplies, and contingency production facilities for critical medical equipment will need to be addressed after this pandemic is over.
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But when will it be over? After Biden is elected? What if Trump is elected again?
 
irvinehomeowner said:
Mety said:
I mean this BLM protest should have given us new 100,000 cases in Hollywood alone, right? Where are all those numbers? They all went to Riverside and Texas ICU?

Mws3mfPm.jpg


source:https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/hollywood-protest-sunday/[/SIZE][/color]
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I should call you Meqwerty.

Do you see how bad LA is doing? Over half the deaths in California and rising.
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I'm sure you already know, but LA has the most population in CA. 3,979,576 as of 2019's record. It's not surprising to have anything bigger than other cities.

The fact protesters didn't follow social distancing/suggested state's guidelines and yet we don't see as much expected rising cases should make you want to question at least, don't you think? It's not just CA. It's nationwide we're seeing this. You can't just say C-19 is rising again just because we've been reopening too soon. It's a valid concern, but please have the same level of concern with the fact BLM protest didn't produce as much as expected cases either.

That has been my original question also if you go back and see my question to you. Is it really because we opened businesses too soon?
 
Happiness said:
akkord said:
So 2 schools...I was referencing a different IUSD school. 

bones said:
Mety said:
akkord said:
This was more afterschool care/camp at an IUSD school, not sure what they would do during actual classes. I'm sure if you called the health department they'd give you more info if allowed.  I'm just letting you know it's closer than you think if you have kids, its bound to spread in school.
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So it was NOT one of public schools. Your initial post sounded like C-19 broke out from one of public elementary schools or something. That's why I asked you since you sounded more informed about it than me.

I'm not and never has been against protecting kids' health. I'm just questioning for accuracy. One word could mean millions of things if not addressed correctly. 
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It was at the Rainbow Rising at Beacon Park Elementary.
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I also heard it was another school but also in the Great Park Neighborhoods.  Exorbitant mello roos, toxic land, cemetery, threat of homeless camps, and now corona schools.
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While I do agree GP has some ridiculous MR and rumors all the time, I need to be cautious of what to believe though. Based on some of you guys' posts, there are so far 2 cases in Irvine schools, Beacon Park Elementary being one of them (not for regular public schools hours). But how accurate is the information? Is it just word on the street? Remember last time there was a rumor when C-19 was at the beginning stage that IVC had a student and a family who had the disease and later got debunked to be fake news?
 
irvinehomeowner said:
@Mety: It?s both.

You didn?t read my post where I responded to King?s post about the protest ?study?.
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It's both what? You're still not addressing the fact such crowded BLM protesters didn't end up with getting C-19.
 
Mety said:
irvinehomeowner said:
@Mety: It?s both.

You didn?t read my post where I responded to King?s post about the protest ?study?.
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It's both what? You're still not addressing the fact such crowded BLM protesters didn't end up with getting C-19.
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How do you know they didn?t? LA county has only 1/4 the population yet almost half the cases and over half the deaths.

Just look at the trend lines and you will see how LA?s numbers have gone up since BLM and reopenings. The study that King posted may give you an idea of why protests didn?t result in as huge a surge because there were limiting factors that reduced spread for other portions of the population.

You really just need to read or you are qwerty?s burner account.
 
Mety said:
irvinehomeowner said:
@Mety: It?s both.

You didn?t read my post where I responded to King?s post about the protest ?study?.
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It's both what? You're still not addressing the fact such crowded BLM protesters didn't end up with getting C-19.
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I already told you. There is a risk to protest during a pandemic. Same thing doing drugs. There is a chance of over dosing.
 
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