Coronavirus Recession

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irvinehomeowner said:
So even the data says that no lockdown would have been worse for the economy (read the link qwerty!):


So there is opinion that has scientific and socioeconomic data behind it... and opinion that is backed by... qwerlogic. :)

that study was published a month ago...we have much better data now that says the virus is not as bad as we thought it was.  i'd love to see them do an update to their study with current data.
 
Kings said:
irvinehomeowner said:
So even the data says that no lockdown would have been worse for the economy (read the link qwerty!):


So there is opinion that has scientific and socioeconomic data behind it... and opinion that is backed by... qwerlogic. :)

that study was published a month ago...we have much better data now that says the virus is not as bad as we thought it was.  i'd love to see them do an update to their study with current data.

Is the virus "not as bad" or was it because of flattening the curve measures? Regardless of the numbers, the concept of core workers protection remains the same.
 
I started reading it and stopped when I read the word model. I can also put together a model that says we would have grown the economy if we had not shut down. 

Morekaos just posted the story of Cuomo saying all of the models that were used as the basis for the shutdown were all off. That is probably the most honesty I?ve ever heard from a politician.

You can throw this model in that same pile of s#it. I think we all know by now that both sides, pro shutdown and those opposing it can put out models that support their viewpoint.

Backing you opinions with models isn?t really basing your opinions on science and FACTUAL data.
 
You are ignoring the common sense and logical concepts regardless of the word model.

But that?s ok... that?s what 5 year olds do. :)

PS: Post a link to a model that says we would have grown the economy if we didn?t lock down. You won?t because that?s the real pile you reference.
 
I told you, Hitchens was right...they declare victory in defeat...

morekaos said:
Maserson said:
Going with 10k-20k range.  Call me an optimist.  Doesn't matter, if we get lower numbers than predicted, some people will claim "I told you it's just the flu!" and the others will say "It's because we shutdown!"

Would be helpful if we had a rapid reliable IgM/IgG test so that exposed people (asymptomatic or mild case) could get back to work while we quarantine the unexposed.

I like Peter Hitchens analogy as to how the blame game will go down if the death rates don't skyrocket soon...

As things stand, the Johnson Government is like a doctor, confronted with a patient suffering from pneumonia. ?This is serious,? says the doctor. ?I have never seen anything like this. Unless I act radically, you will die terribly.?

He then proposes to treat the pneumonia by amputating the patient?s left leg, saying this method has been used successfully in China. The trusting patient agrees. The patient eventually recovers from pneumonia, as he would have done anyway. The doctor proclaims that his treatment, though undoubtedly painful and radical, was a great success. But the patient now has only one leg, and a very large hospital bill which he cannot afford to pay.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8163587/PETER-HITCHENS-Great-Panic-foolish-freedom-broken-economy-crippled.html
 
Here is someone else's opinion on the false claim that the lockdown will cause more deaths:

Don't believe the myth that we must sacrifice lives to save the economy
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-no-trade-off-between-the-economy-and-health

Is the cure worse than the disease? The Times claimed today: ?If the coronavirus lockdown leads to a fall in GDP of more than 6.4% more years of life will be lost due to recession than will be gained through beating the virus.? It?s hard to know where to start with this nonsense. It?s based on a paper currently under review at a journal entitled Nanotechnology Perceptions, which simply assumes that a fall in GDP translates mechanically and directly into a fall in life expectancy.

It?s this sort of reasoning that appears to be leading President Trump to call for an early end to restrictions in the US, claiming that far more people would die of suicide from a ?terrible economy? than from the virus.

But the premise is simply wrong. A recession ? a short-term, temporary fall in GDP ? need not, and indeed normally does not, reduce life expectancy. Indeed, counterintuitively, the weight of the evidence is that recessions actually lead to people living longer. Suicides do indeed go up, but other causes of death, such as road accidents and alcohol-related disease, fall.

So at the most basic level, this argument ignores what the evidence says. But perhaps more importantly, the idea that the way to minimise the economic damage is to remove the restrictions before they?ve done their job ? definitively suppressing the spread of the virus ? is a terrible one.

Does anyone believe that, whatever the government said, we could get back to ?normal?, or something close to it, any time soon? If we were all allowed to return to work, many or most of us would, quite rationally, choose not to, for fear of catching the virus. And if, as the scientists predict, the result of loosening the restrictions was an acceleration in infections, then pretty soon many firms would simply stop functioning, as workers became sick, or had to stay at home to look after family members.

More broadly, restoring the economy to normal requires, above all, confidence. Amid continuing uncertainty both about their own finances and the wider economy, households won?t spend and businesses won?t invest. And that simply isn?t going to happen until the spread of the diseases has been contained.

Like I said, even if there were no mandated lockdowns, people would have chosen to stay home and  the economy would have still faltered. Look at Sweden... that's "factual" data.
 
I actually think flattening the curve may have instilled some false confidence in consumers.

Because the death toll is "only" 100k in the US, that means it's not as "bad" as originally thought and thus we can go back to pre-Covid behavior sooner.

While this is good for reopening the economy, I am hoping that people still continue to practice safe habits.

I say this because I am experiencing this myself in my own life. I am forgetting to use hand sanitizer as often and my 20-second hand washing is now down to 10 seconds.

I've also noticed at restaurants that people aren't really social distancing. My buddy who told me that I Can BBQ is open said that all of the booths were filled. It was actually busier at the time he went than it usually was at that time. I see groups of kids all hanging out with each other and they are not 6 feet apart or wearing masks.

It's probably a combination of "safety fatigue" and "well... I haven't gotten it yet... so I should be fine".

That being said, this could mean that the economy can recover faster as long as there is no second wave in infections/deaths... and this is for Kings... but with all these riots... a large spread is highly likely, which is sad because that surge could be attributed to reopening when otherwise it may not have been.
 
Heard on the radio that restaurants and other business are back up to 75% of their business.

Except for AMC, 0% and they say that they may go out of business. :(

They should have set up some streaming arrangement with the studios rather than letting the studios go direct with the streaming services.
 
Why isn?t qwerty talking about the better than expected job report for May?

Maybe because the lockdown helped keep more people healthy they could get back to work. :)
 
If there wasn't the lockdown, there wouldn't be a reason even to discuss the unemployment report. The vast majority of the people still would've been employed, no?
 
irvinehomeowner said:
Why isn%u2019t qwerty talking about the better than expected job report for May?

Maybe because the lockdown helped keep more people healthy they could get back to work. :)

They are changing the argument. First it was covid is nothing to worry about, then it was business should re-open, and now it is about face mask.

For OC area: Supervisor Wagner is questioning the mask

Spectrum News Article:

Wagner said some residents have complained of public shaming for not wearing a face covering and have been denied service in pharmacies and other places. Is that an appropriate response to your mask policy?

We're hearing from our citizens that this is government overreach, Wagner said. If we can't point to other governments responding in the same way ... doesn't that undermine the evidence behind your order?

https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-wes...ptick-in--community-transmission--of-covid-19

My comment: The fear of public shaming is greater than public health? Who in the world public shames? Some people do get it. Government over reach? How about we talk about seat belts or drinking and driving or my favorite biking under the influence lol (is that government over reach? Some people know how to drink responsibly and can handle more liquor than others.)

Did Wagner go to Med School or has specialized training about masks? (as he questions the Oc health agency director)
 
Yeah this stock rebound was faster than I thought. Good thing I didn?t pull out that money. Of course now that I said that I?m. Sure a 15-20% drop is right around the corner.
 
adventurous said:
If there wasn't the lockdown, there wouldn't be a reason even to discuss the unemployment report. The vast majority of the people still would've been employed, no?

It depends. There is no 20/20 hindsight here.

Other companies in places without mandatory lockdowns did close temporarily causing unemployment.

If large numbers of people got sick, companies would be forced to close... also causing unemployment.

Even if the US stayed open, almost all of the rest of the world locked down so airlines and other global companies would have unemployment.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
adventurous said:
If there wasn't the lockdown, there wouldn't be a reason even to discuss the unemployment report. The vast majority of the people still would've been employed, no?

It depends. There is no 20/20 hindsight here.

Other companies in places without mandatory lockdowns did close temporarily causing unemployment.

If large numbers of people got sick, companies would be forced to close... also causing unemployment.

Even if the US stayed open, almost all of the rest of the world locked down so airlines and other global companies would have unemployment.
There would have been a hike in unemployment during the consumer uncertainty, but it would be a minor adjustment. I am not saying there woudn't be any effect. However, the vast majority of the people still would've been employed.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
adventurous said:
If there wasn't the lockdown, there wouldn't be a reason even to discuss the unemployment report. The vast majority of the people still would've been employed, no?

It depends. There is no 20/20 hindsight here.

Other companies in places without mandatory lockdowns did close temporarily causing unemployment.

If large numbers of people got sick, companies would be forced to close... also causing unemployment.

Even if the US stayed open, almost all of the rest of the world locked down so airlines and other global companies would have unemployment.

If California turned to be like New York they will complain. They would of complain either way. The new argument is the mask. Apparently they know a better formula than the countries that beat covid. (Mask was part of the formula)

 
While this rally is great, did NOT take away the insolvency of the many zombie corporations existed long before pandemic. When the pandemic hit it pushed lots AAA corps to junk bonds STATUS, fallen Angel.

FED is delaying the process and buy time with the massive stimulus. There is  a limited counter on the clock and not forever. Could be two years or two weeks. Anywhere in between those before the chicken comes to roost.
 
Everyone always complains about recessions but recessions are a necessary and inevitable part of a business cycle.  This one in particular was not totally organic..it was created.  All recessions have a certain cleansing effect on business.  The weakest are culled and the weak adjust to become more competitive in order to survive.. the Strong use the time to trim the fat and also become more focused and efficient.  This recession was fast and violent so the recover is predictably the same.  The weakest, it pushed off the cliff but what is left will be better.
 
morekaos said:
Everyone always complains about recessions but recessions are a necessary and inevitable part of a business cycle.  This one in particular was not totally organic..it was created.  All recessions have a certain cleansing effect on business.  The weakest are culled and the weak adjust to become more competitive in order to survive.. the Strong use the time to trim the fat and also become more focused and efficient.  This recession was fast and violent so the recover is predictably the same.  The weakest, it pushed off the cliff but what is left will be better.

You got it wrong on many aspects. First this is a Depression, not a recessions. Second, how many job loss of the 40 Millions are permanent or temporary? Third, how many are really benefitting from this crash? Fourth, there is only 2 previous Presidents in the past win reelection when the economy in recession. This is no reccession, rather its a Depression and this is just a beginning of it. Of course you going to get a run up after the 40 % crash. You don't have to be genius to know that. The real genius is how the equities is casting a large net to lure or fools to go back in and think everything is fine and dandy. That's the beauty of it. While the riot is a big part of the poor rising up and screams. Is this Make America Great Again, yes for the HAVES. The HAVES already own 70 of wealth and they are about to own more, if people allow it.

So the riots is a push back and lets see how this goes. The best outcome is to have a leader that gives opportunities to all and all feel they winners. Thats not easy to do. But the unrest will continue. And when the net is full of fishes again, it will be pulled again. :) :) :)
 
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