Coronavirus Math

[sgip]

@Kenoko

When you use the phrase "We need to..." please describe who "We" might be. The current system is immutable, centered, and never to be changed. There are minor variants in medical partnerships structures here and there, but what is, is.

Suggesting ways to fix another person's pay without being willing to do this to ones own pay bellies a sense do as I say, not as I do. Frankly speaking I want my medical professionals to make an insane level of income as it's earned, not "taken" as many see it today.

The societal "We" proposes a government dictated healthcare system - a cure worse than the disease. Sure, there are people who go to Mexico or Canada for cheaper medicines and knee replacements, but also plenty of Canadians, Britons, and others come to the US for their medical treatments unavailable through their "free" healthcare system. Strange since so many people might look at a government run healthcare system as being so much better than what we have here.

Clarifying who "We" represents would help. My guess is it's either legislation or some other kind of government intervention. That may be the case, and if so -lets apply that same thinking to every widget maker out there. What's good for one must be good for all, no? If not, why not?

My .02c

 

[Kenkoko]

@SGIP

I am part of a non-partisan advocacy group that's pushing for sensible healthcare reform. It mostly consist of physicians and healthcare workers. Since you're asking, that's who we are.

We're not suggesting to fix another person's pay. We are suggesting ways to improve the system. The downstream effect of that may lead to some changes in compensation. But like I explained in my previous post, the overall compensation likely won't change much.

You said you want your medical professionals to make an insane level of income, but did you know that most are not? Many doctors make less than Walmart managers. A high level hospital executive here in OC makes 10 times more $ than an ER doctor. The pharma reps that comes to our hospitals to push sales make about half a mil per year, more than any physicians at my hospital. We have a real problem with physician burnout in the US.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/05/31/728334635/whats-doctor-burnout-costing-america

Under our current system, the medical professionals who are making insane level of income are the ones who are great at working / gaming the insurance system. Not necessarily the best doctors. They tend to be those who push for unnecessary activities to patients to get paid more.

Since you mentioned the prescription drugs cost problem, here's what's happening and we are pushing to change in that regard.

Americans are paying 300% more for the same prescription drugs than citizens of many European countries. It's even more outrageous when you factor in that the US government subsidized the research with our tax money. If anything we should get them cheaper. We don't because our system is so broken.

The United States is the only country that allows drug-makers to set their own prices for a given product. Big pharma lobbyist are so powerful they managed to pull this off. We are basically shouldering the cost for rest of the world. Other countries are not allowing Big pharma to profit off them. So big pharma gouge us for drugs we helped developed!

We are pushing Congress to

- pass a law to negotiate drug prices.

- Use international reference pricing to set a baseline and allow for forced licensing of medications if companies can?t come to a reasonable agreement with the federal government on cost in line with international prices.

- allow for the importation of prescription drugs from other countries to introduce competition & drive down cost.

You mentioned we should let the invisible hand of capitalism be our guiding principals in your previous post. I generally agree, but clearly that's not what's happening in US healthcare.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

But you see the disconnect here... why are prescription drugs prices so high? Because the *government* gets "lobbied" to allow it.

You are asking the Watcher to watch himself, why would he?

 

[Kenkoko]

But you see the disconnect here... why are prescription drugs prices so high? Because the *government* gets "lobbied" to allow it.

You are asking the Watcher to watch himself, why would he?

No, asking for the ability to negotiate (not dictate) drug prices is not asking the watcher to watch himself. We are asking for more competition by allowing drug importation. This is much closer to basic free market principles than what we currently have.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

But you see the disconnect here... why are prescription drugs prices so high? Because the *government* gets "lobbied" to allow it.

You are asking the Watcher to watch himself, why would he?

No, asking for the ability to negotiate (not dictate) drug prices is not asking the watcher to watch himself. We are asking for more competition by allowing drug importation. This is much closer to basic free market principles than what we currently have.

But this all has to go through the government filter/oversight.

I understand what you are trying to do but as long as there is some type of government involvement, there will be waste.

 

[eyephone]

no regulation is not the answer.
1. Look at what happened during the mortgage/financial crisis.
2. China wet markets out of control no regulation.

 

[Kenkoko]

But you see the disconnect here... why are prescription drugs prices so high? Because the *government* gets "lobbied" to allow it.

You are asking the Watcher to watch himself, why would he?

No, asking for the ability to negotiate (not dictate) drug prices is not asking the watcher to watch himself. We are asking for more competition by allowing drug importation. This is much closer to basic free market principles than what we currently have.

But this all has to go through the government filter/oversight.

I understand what you are trying to do but as long as there is some type of government involvement, there will be waste.

Healthcare isn't a space that can function properly with no government oversight and regulations.

What we are proposing would be less government filter and oversight because it will allow prescription cost to settle closer to market price.

Right now, we are legally not allowed to negotiate drug prices. Therefore, prescription Drug A cost $600 simply because the pharma company set it at $600. Not because of supply, not because of demand, no free market principle at play here. It's a monopoly.

 

[nosuchreality]

But you see the disconnect here... why are prescription drugs prices so high? Because the *government* gets "lobbied" to allow it.

You are asking the Watcher to watch himself, why would he?

No, asking for the ability to negotiate (not dictate) drug prices is not asking the watcher to watch himself. We are asking for more competition by allowing drug importation. This is much closer to basic free market principles than what we currently have.

You can't negotiate if you can't walk away from the table.  Hence, you get Mylan's continuous patent tweaks to epipen and their 500% price increase in a decade or Shkreli's buying of Daparim manufacturing license and raising prices 5600% from $13.50 to $750 per dose.

Under ACA, insurance cannot refuse to pay for a drug without alternatives. 

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I think I'm confused about Kenkoko's stance on universal healthcare.

Isn't Obamacare more government oversight? But he is saying he is advocating less.

I understand there can't be *no* regulation but I would rather have less than more.

Certain things, where costs are known, sure let the Fed handle that (I say that relunctantly)... but eveything else, let the market decide. Can the Fed force a bio company to make a $500 pill only $5? If it's necessary... sure (like a Covid vaccine) but if it's for someones' face to have less wrinkles or to regrow my hair... stay out of it.

 

[Kings]

Certain things, where costs are known, sure let the Fed handle that (I say that relunctantly)... but eveything else, let the market decide. Can the Fed force a bio company to make a $500 pill only $5? If it's necessary... sure (like a Covid vaccine) but if it's for someones' face to have less wrinkles or to regrow my hair... stay out of it.

who decides what's "necessary"?  i, for one, need less wrinkles.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Certain things, where costs are known, sure let the Fed handle that (I say that relunctantly)... but eveything else, let the market decide. Can the Fed force a bio company to make a $500 pill only $5? If it's necessary... sure (like a Covid vaccine) but if it's for someones' face to have less wrinkles or to regrow my hair... stay out of it.

who decides what's "necessary"?  i, for one, need less wrinkles.

Most drugs are classified by medical usage. But there are always some that will skirt that like botox. There are people using it for migraines... when really... it's to cure their headache of looking older.

 

[Kenkoko]

I think I'm confused about Kenkoko's stance on universal healthcare.

Isn't Obamacare more government oversight? But he is saying he is advocating less.

I understand there can't be *no* regulation but I would rather have less than more.

Certain things, where costs are known, sure let the Fed handle that (I say that relunctantly)... but eveything else, let the market decide. Can the Fed force a bio company to make a $500 pill only $5? If it's necessary... sure (like a Covid vaccine) but if it's for someones' face to have less wrinkles or to regrow my hair... stay out of it.

I support universal healthcare. Not Bernie's Medicare for all. There's a gigantic difference. I respect Bernie's integrity but swiftly reformatting 18% of our economy and eliminating private insurance for millions of Americans is not a realistic strategy.

Healthcare is a complicated space. There are elements of it where we need more government oversight. Such as taking away Insurance companies' ability to deny coverage due to pre-existing conditions and removing life-time coverage caps. There are elements of it where we need less government control like prescription prices. It's illegal to negotiate drug prices right now. That's not capitalism. It's leading to price gouging because of government control.

There are elements of Obamacare that were big improvements and there are elements of Obamacare that were problematic.

Democrats are often having the wrong conversation on healthcare.

Instead of addressing the underlying problems driving unaffordability and access, Democrats are spending all their time arguing over who is the most zealous in wanting to cover Americans. Just having health insurance doesn't mean one can afford healthcare services nor does it mean one have access to healthcare (like those who live in the 30% of USA without primary care)

We are not trying to force drug companies to drop $500 drugs to $5. We are saying the price should be within international reference pricing. If a drug  sells for average $200 in Europe, they shouldn't be selling it for $500 here in the US, especially when we subsidized the development of the drug. If drug companies do not abide by this, we should be allow to import these drug from Europe, which will bring the price close to $200.

 

[Kenkoko]

But you see the disconnect here... why are prescription drugs prices so high? Because the *government* gets "lobbied" to allow it.

You are asking the Watcher to watch himself, why would he?

No, asking for the ability to negotiate (not dictate) drug prices is not asking the watcher to watch himself. We are asking for more competition by allowing drug importation. This is much closer to basic free market principles than what we currently have.

You can't negotiate if you can't walk away from the table.  Hence, you get Mylan's continuous patent tweaks to epipen and their 500% price increase in a decade or Shkreli's buying of Daparim manufacturing license and raising prices 5600% from $13.50 to $750 per dose.

Under ACA, insurance cannot refuse to pay for a drug without alternatives.

This is why we need a multi-pronged approach. We cannot just rely on negotiation alone. We need both carrots and sticks.

 

[Liar Loan]

This isn't the thread for talk of socialized medicine because the math doesn't work!  Ditto for UBI!

 

[Kenkoko]

Wow such a nuanced take! You deserve a thumps up

 

[irvinehomeowner]

This isn?t a model or a prediction or fuzzy math.

80k dead in less then 3.5 months.

AND... this was with lockdown and shelter protocols.

Think about that.