Will Barack Obama be our next President?

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T!m,



Everyone knows that the American carriers were not at harbor in Pearl on December 7th. In fact, Halsey's force was headed back to Pearl at that time. If his scout planes had encountered the Japanese fleet the evening of the 6th, in international waters, in striking distance of Pearl, are you saying he would not have the authority to strike them pre-emptively? Are you saying he would have to wait until they struck Pearl?
 
<p>I think war planes and battle ships are different than cherry-picked intel about WMD in Iraq. Remember, WMD was THE KEY reason Bush gave for leading us to war. It was the KEY reason the public in the USA was afraid. If you are going to go to war, you better make damn sure you are right. He didn't. and assumed he was right. That arrogance further led them to completely mismanage the whole affair after the mission was "accomplished." I see stubborn arrogance masking self-righteous ignorance.</p>

<p>Then there is the whole issue of the Bush regime conflating Iraq and 9/11. Even though there was no connection (and Bush has since said so), they STILL use them in the same sentence to try to connect them in people's minds without having to actually say it. It disgusts me. When I think of all the young lives lost in Iraq while bin Laden is still free, it turns my stomach. </p>

<p>When I hear that Bush's approval rating has dropped to 35%, I wonder who those 35% are. </p>

<p>Sorry about the tone of this email, but the loss of life for nothing really make me mad. </p>
 
<p>T!m,</p>

<p>When you are basing your decisions on intelligence gathered by an agency that has no resources in the actual country in question, you have to go with the best information provided to you. When we invaded Iraq in 1991, we found that our best intelligence efforts completely missed Iraq's original nuclear weapon program. Our entire intelligence network HAD NO CLUE that it even existed. Given ALL the actions of Iraq in the intervening decade between invasions, it wasn't a stretch to think our best intelligence <em>might</em> be missing something again. Bush was being fed the intelligence from all directions, but it was being framed by the same people that were in his father's administration during the first Gulf war. Even those like Colin owell couldn't say that there were definitely no WMD's. Bush didn't simply assume he was right, he made a judgement call that turned out wrong based on the opinions of his advisors and the information provided and has since been stuck with the bloody consequences of that decision. But make no mistake, we would be in the exact same position today even if WMD programs had been found and dismantled, as Cheney pointed out in 1991. The difference is that Cheney wasn't willing to take a chance that the intelligence was wrong....again.</p>

<p>As for "Mission Accomplished", we completely dismanted Saddam's government in a matter of <em>days </em>with half the number of troops we used in 1991<em>. </em>The mission to remove Saddam from power was accomplished, the mission to rebuild Iraq was/is a clusterf*^k and is disintegrating into civil war as we speak.</p>

<p>As I have said in other threads, there are plenty of reasons to hate Bush, but let the reasons be true and not rhetorical revisionism. This thread is about Obama being elected. While his position on Iraq is part of that, I don't think bashing Bush does much to advance Obama's electability because Bush isn't running for office.</p>
 
<p><em>When you are basing your decisions on intelligence gathered by an agency that has no resources in the actual country in question, you have to go with the best information provided to you. When we invaded Iraq in 1991, we found that our best intelligence efforts completely missed Iraq's original nuclear weapon program. Our entire intelligence network HAD NO CLUE that it even existed. </em></p>

<p>If our intelligence was that bad, why did we trust them when deciding to go to war? The inspectors that the UN had in Iraq weren't finding any WMD. It seems to me that the Bush camp was just looking for an excuse to invade and didn't really care what the truth was. Obviously, this is all subjective since we can't know what was really going on in their minds.</p>

<p><em>As I have said in other threads, there are plenty of reasons to hate Bush, but let the reasons be true and not rhetorical revisionism. This thread is about Obama being elected. While his position on Iraq is part of that, I don't think bashing Bush does much to advance Obama's electability because Bush isn't running for office.</em></p>

<p>Agreed, so I am dropping it now. Really! </p>
 
I deliberately chose those analogies to:





1. Show the absurdity of those statements, particularly: "just because some people disagreed with that decision with at the time does not mean it was the wrong decision at the time."





No, movingaround, it was <strong>flat out wrong</strong> to go into Iraq. Not because "some people" like me disagreed with that decision. Because decision was based on a whole bunch of rubbish that was aimed to scare the country sh*tless so they would rally to invade Iraq.





You may not remember this, but the rationale for invading Iraq was WMDs, not to liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein. Guess you don't remember good ol' Colin Powell taking one for the team in Congress with his vial of "anthrax" and blurry satellite photos of aluminum tubes? And what about Bush declaring in his 2003 State of the Union address that Saddam was obtaining yellowcake uranium from Niger? With the mainstream media (led by Fox) serving as nothing more than Bush's mouthpiece, average Joes were convinced that America had to invade to destroy Saddam's WMDs. Never mind that the UN inspection team (UNMOVIC) was starting to get increased cooperation from Iraq - it turns out the first UN inspections team (UNSCOM) pretty much dismantled Iraq's WMD capability in the years after the Gulf War. Oops.





So what happened when we didn't find any WMDs after we invaded? Bush changed his rationale for invasion: "Who cares about WMDs, we went into Iraq to liberate the people from Saddam Hussein. What? You disagree with me? Do you hate freedom?"





I guess it is a tribute to Bush's PR machine (or Fox News) that you guys now think that we went into Iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein and liberate the Iraqi people. There's just a little problem with that. Or two. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong Il. The other two parts of the "Axis of Evil" (Bush wasn't above the not-so-subtle Hitler reference either). Why not invade *ahem* liberate Iran or North Korea? Both countries are suffering under repressive regimes . Both countries want WMDs. North Korea was much further along in their nuclear weapons program than Iraq ever was. Why did we deal diplomatically with Kim Jong Il and not Saddam?





Everybody has their reasons to invade a country and start a war. Bush and his advisers had their reasons for invading Iraq (I'm still not sure what they were - Saddam tried to kill his daddy? Oil? For fun and profit?). Hitler and his advisers had theirs for invading Poland (Revenge for the Treaty of Versailles). Hirohito and his advisers had theirs for invading China ("Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere"). It doesn't change the fact that reasons for invading countries are mostly bullsh*t.





2. Get all the Bush homers all riled up. You guys are too funny. Oh Noes! Godwin's Law! Hope you guys didn't choke on your freedom fries when you were furiously typing your righteously indignant responses.





<embed width="425" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/diEdNgnzR3g" wmode="transparent" pluginspage="http://macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" quality="high" id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed>
 
Muffdaddy, I think you need a beer.





Look the only way to end racism is to NOT TALK ABOUT IT. Ignore it. The second you start discussing it, whether for good or ill, you make it an issue. Skinheads out there? So what, ignore them and don't give them the pleasure of attention. If they commit a crime, lock 'em up or put them out of their misery.





Bush is a goof ball, but if you want to debate the right and wrong reasons to go to war, we'll be here for the rest of our lives. Iraq isn't about war or winning, it's about occupation. No war, since Vietnam will be won quickly because of media coverage. Wars are ugly and atrocities need to be committed to win. You can't fight a politically correct war. Either you fight and win or you don't start fighting. We could have pushed the VC out of northern Vietnam in the first years of the war but Johnson caved in. As a result we slowly lost ground and lives. Nixon tried to be PC as well. Everyone who died, died in vain.





Unless we shape up and get our shit together now, all the lives lost in this war will have been in vain as well. If we can't (and we won't IMO) win this war we should get the hell out of there.
 
<p>LM,</p>

<p>By ignoring racism, you are also pretending it does not exist. I totally agree with Obama in that racism has been used to pit one race against another. It has been used since this country began. The "natives" used it to rile against Irish immigrants. ..then it was the Irish v. blacks. Then it was Blacks v. Hispanics vs. Whites. In the Hawaii, plantation workers first brought in Chinese laborers, then Japanese Laborers, then Korean Laborer all in order to pit them against one another in order to keep the status quo. While white American are busy blaming illegal and/or hispanic worker for losing their jobs and blacks are blaming white for keeping them down, no one pays attention to the corporations and rich people (of any race) who are exploiting everyone. </p>

<p>I agree that you cannot fight a PC war but you can fight a war with a cause. No one is decrying how we got involved in Afghanistan. . .because there is a purpose there. WWII had a purpose. Vietnam and Iraq appear pointless and without any goals. I personally believe that there was a reason to go into Vietnam but then the U.S. government was too busy trip over its own ego and switching dictators every 30 seconds that even the South Vietnamese got sick of the Americans. </p>
 
In regards again to T!m's comments regarding the need for perfect intelligence, Saddam's own generals believed they had WMD.



In regards to taking pre-emptive action without perfect intelligence, we live in a world where our opponents do not give us warning before striking. The Japanese did not warn us before Pearl Harbor. The North Koreans did not warn the UN before striking into South Korea. The North Vietnamese didn't warn the South Vietnamese before violating the Tet truce. Terrorists did not warn us before the attempt to blow up the USS Cole. Bin Laden did not warn us before attempts to blow up the twin towers. T!m, if you take your arguement to it's logical conclusion, it would mean that if we had good intelligence (but not perfect intelligence) that Bin Laden was planning 9/11 - and had put his plan into operation - we would not be justified in striking until we had perfect proof? And what would that concrete proof be - the first hijacking?



I think the problem that I see with your thinking on this is that you focus on the high cost and tragedy that is every life lost, and feel that this sort of cost requires a form of certitude in order to be justified, much like the absolute truth that is an algebriac proof.



However, while I respect the costs the loss of life represents, I believe that the nature of international relations has no certainty. When you are talking about the future actions of one group versus another, you can never be certain what course either group will take. In other words, when you talk about the future actions of a group of people, it is all hypothetical - with no gaurantees that they will act in a rational manner. And this can cause quite a dlemma for those governing, because the people being governed do not want another Pearl Harbor, nor a 9-11, and expect that those governing will act pre-emptively if there is a danger.



This brings me to Saddam and Iraq. I think that the administration made its principal mistake in focusing on whether or not Saddam had WMD. Whether or not he had active stores is ultimately, from a practical standpoint, irrellevant.



Contrary to public opinion, chemical and biological weapons are ridicously easy to develop. Take, for example, Sarin (also known as GB), which is one of the deadliest forms of nerve agents. The Aum Shinrikyo cult developed and released Sarin on subways in Japan in 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway). We are not talking about a soveriegn nation with a defense ministry, and state funded weapons programs. We are talking about a CULT! In another example, in 2004, insurgents in Iraq detonated an Improvised Explosive Device that included Sarin (where the Sarin came from, and whether it was scavenged from old Saddam stockpiles was unresolved, but it had to come from somewhere). Chile reportedly developed Sarin under Pinochet. Why is Sarin so easy to make? It is essentially a pesticide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin). In fact, the research that lead to it's development was focused on agricultural pesticides. Any nation that has an agricultural pesticide program can also develop Sarin.



The question in regards to WMD isn't whether a nation, including Saddam's Iraq, has them. The above examples show that any nation can have them, and if they currently do not have them, they can produce them in short order (hey - if the cult can..) The question is whether they will use them, and use them against us. We know that Saddam used Sarin against the Iranians in their war. He used them against the Kurds. Since the end of World War II, Saddam's Iraq is the only nation to actively use Sarin (and other agents) in a mass deployment. Not the old USSR, not Red China, nor any of the other Cold War bogeymen. Saddam. This makes him, in my mind, a heightened risk. Pre-invasion, we did know that a few things were certain:



Saddam knew how to make WMD.

Saddam had used WMD in the past.

Saddam would not allow definative searches of his facilities to alleviate our concerns (remember, he was doing the shell game with the facilities the UN was allowed to search).



We also knew that Saddam was under pressure to appear strong. This pressure was not from us, but from Iran, who was trying to influence events in the southern (Shia) areas of Iraq. Also, the climate had changed in the Arab world. Remember the Palestinians cheering in the streets after 9-11? If he chose to attack us, he could appear strong and a hero for Arabs.



The question then becomes which of two strategies do you pursue: containment, or active measures? Containment is usually pursued with rational actors, where both sides understand that there is great risk and loss if either side crosses "the line". Think of the US, USSR, and Mutually Assured Destruction. Saddam wasn't very rational. So do you leave someone out there with his history with WMD, and wait to see if perfect intelligence in the form of an attack that could make 9-11 look like patty-cakes occurs? Or do you mitigate risk, and take him down first?



Ultimately, this is the conundrum that faces any administration in the face of a threat that will give no advanced warning (I think advanced notice went out with the Crimean War). Very clearly, the Clinton administration - with the hindsight of 9-11 - should have used stronger military force against bin-Laden while he was in Sudan, and done what was necessary to kill or capture him. However, they didn't have the luxury of hindsite, and instead were content to lob a couple of cruise missles into the general area. In hindsite , they underestimated him.



Now place the same risk of underestimation against Saddam. Someone who feels cornered. And already knows how to make and use WMD.



Just to further the scenario, lets say we leave Saddam in power a little while longer, and he does something irrational (by our standards), like whip up some Sarin, and use it in a chain of attacks against US military installations in the Middle East. The attacks kill 8,500 service men and women (a reasonable assumption considering the numbers of service people stationed there). In making the calculation about whether to invade, this type of hypothetical can not be ruled out, especially from someone like Saddam. And also remember, any future estimations of his activities will all be hypotheticals. And if he does attack, there willbe no advanced warning.



I know it is a long post, but that is my reasoning for acting against Saddam - for me it is not about whether he had WMD. It is purely risk mitigation against a dangerous, unstable, irrational ruler.
 
cdm,





Did you know that the Romans were the first to embrace the doctrine of preemptive war? All of their military conquests were attempts to quell the dangers of barbarians on their borders. It is interesting where the argument of preemptive war leads... I think we need to invade North Korea next. We know Kim Jong-Il is a psychotic nutcase, and he really does have massive quantities of WMD. He will probably have a decent nuke soon. Iran is dangerous, and we are making them rich with $100 oil. Castro and Chavez have opposed us for a long time, we should take them out too. Who knows what terrorist groups they are supporting? Chavez is probably helping out the drug cartels poisoning our streets and corrupting our population; besides, we could use Venezuela's oil. If given enough time and a bit of imagination, reasons can be conjured up to invade just about anyone, and the doctrine of preemptive war provides a justification to do so. I am not making a statement about the specifics you raised with respect to Hussein because from a philosophical standpoint, they are irrelevant. The doctrine of preemptive war is a slippery slope.





We can all speculate on what Saddam might have done, but I would speculate we would have fewer dead American solders right now had we not invaded Iraq.
 
<p><em>We can all speculate on what Saddam might have done, but I would speculate we would have fewer dead American solders right now had we not invaded Iraq.</em> </p>

<p>I can speculate that the world would be a safer place and we would have far fewer casualties and risk if the war wasn't grossly mismanaged.</p>

<p>It's hard to seperate how much was flat out the wrong decision and how much of the wrong decision is due to the war being so grossly mismanaged from the moment we effectively knocked out Saddam's regime. Whether it's failure to secure weapons dumps, secure the populice, secure museums, it is all squandered opportunity won through the blood of our soldiers. The insuing years of chaos and destruction are largely the result of mismanagement earlier and failure to enforce timelines on the replacement government.</p>
 
IR,



The countries that you mentioned all have their challenges, but I think that you would agree that there is one key differnce betwenn them and Saddam's Iraq: He used WMD, and they haven't.



In regards to North Korea, I believe that our actions in Iraq helped forward the types of little steps towards detante that we have seen. It showed Kim that we are serious about taking out rogue nations. We also, it should be noted, had the same effect on Libya.



Iran is dangerous because they have been a long time spomser of terror, and becuase they do not have a conventional governmental structure to negotiate with. they actually have three governments in parallel (civil - think trash collection and potholes; security - concerned with greater Persia; and clerical - think greater Islam), each with their own secutiry operations. military and paramilitary forces. When you negotiate with one, there is no obligation for the other two to honor the results of that negotiation. The paradox is that they have seen a rotation of different personalities through key leadership positions, as well as semi-free elections; yet they are still a terror sponsor state - they target innocent civilians as part of their statecraft.



Castro - won't have long to wait. Chaves - blowhard ('nuff said.)





When I took my just war class in college (my major was Political Science, with an emphasis on International Relations) there were three issues that just war theory had/has trouble reconciling:



1) Prior Notification of State of War - in the ideal world of just war, nations would notify one another of the state of war prior to the commencement of hostilities. Obviously, not

followed religiously (although our two wars against Iraq are exceptions).



2) Pe-emptive war - see Prior Notification (above). The classic paradox is the Pearl Harbor one I posted about earlier: If Halsey's recon flight had spotted the Japanese strike force in international waters, within striking distance of Pearl on the evening of December 6th, would he have been justified in attacking that force, and possibly averting Pearl Harbor? Also, if he had, would our moral justifcation of our state of war with Japan have been less if Pear Harbor not happened as a result? Just war theory has a tough time reconciling that.



3) the role of Non Governmental Organizations, violence, and States - To what degree are states held accountable for the actions of NGO's that enjoy a relationship with them, whether the state enjoys that relationship in return. The classic example here is the PLO and Lebanon, which didn't want the PLO, but couldn't get rid of them.



You can see that two of the issues deal with Prior Notification and Pre-emptive war, and that the two are intertwined in most cases. My question to you, if you truly believe what you say about pre-emptive war, is to tell me how you would reconcile the December 6, Pearl Harbor paradox I outlined. Wuold Halsey be justified in striking the Japanese fleet in international waters, without a prior shot having been fired by the Japanese?
 
But Saddam *didn't* use WMD on *us*. The next time the US gets in a war we may regret that after refraining from using WMD he got hung anyway. That results in an unpleasant change in cost-benefit for the next guy. <p>



In addition, it's pretty hypocritical for the Bush adminstration to go after Saddam because of WMD given that Rumsfeld was <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/dixon06172004.html">involved</a> in him getting them in the first place, under Reagan.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't WE giving weapons to Hussein to fight against Iran in the 80's???? Every time we take sides with a middle eastern country (except Israel) we end up getting stabbed in the back.
 
I certainly hope Obama is the next President.



I don't trust Hillary as far as I can throw her (and with hips like that, it ain't far.) John McCain is a neocon lackey and quite frankly I have had all the middle-eastern wars and Kristol, Rove and Norquist I can handle for a lifetime.



Besides, I've already sent Obama over a grand in contributions and I'd like to see a return on that investment.
 
<em>He used WMD, and they haven't.</em>


So has the USA.


Going back to the Mission Accomplished banner, I understand the reasons the banner was there. However, I think the reason Bush's team had it in the background was because they really only thought as far as the battle. I think this is why the whole effort after that was so mismanaged.
 
<p>"It showed Kim that we are serious about taking out rogue nations."</p>

<p>Effectively combating the Taliban in Afganistan and capturing Osama would have done this. </p>

<p>If the effort expended in Iraq was instead directed toward Afganistan and its border area with Pakistan, we would have "rooted out" the Taliban along with Osama by now. We might have had to step on Pakistan's toes to do it, but the world would have been behind us, as we are justified. Meanwhile, by now, had we allowed the Iraq WMD inspection process unfold as it should, the world would know that Saddam did not have WMD's. Iran would probably have invaded and the Kurds would have revolted. Saddam's numbers would be numbered and it wouldn't be on our dime.</p>

<p>Instead, we've earned the ire of nations and the message we have sent to the world is "you can do whatever you like to us and we won't do too much in return provided that we can translate our justified retaliation towards another boogey man."</p>

<p> </p>
 
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