Why should we wait to buy in OC until 2010?

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[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1244594179]Prices did go up during this period because wages were rising dramatically in a wage/price inflationary spiral. Unless we have wage inflation, prices will not rise again any time soon.</blockquote>Why did the US experience such wage inflation in the 1970s ?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage-price_spiral

"The "spiral" of increasing prices and wages, however, can only continue as long as the government continues to intervene in the economy by inflating the money supply."





If we are able to successfully fight deflation by inflating the money suppy, after that are we looking at 1970s style stagflation ?

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/finance/11822659.asp?scr=1
 
[quote author="xoneinax" date=1244608774][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1244594179]Prices did go up during this period because wages were rising dramatically in a wage/price inflationary spiral. Unless we have wage inflation, prices will not rise again any time soon.</blockquote>Why did the US experience such wage inflation in the 1970s ?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage-price_spiral

"The "spiral" of increasing prices and wages, however, can only continue as long as the government continues to intervene in the economy by inflating the money supply."





If we are able to successfully fight deflation by inflating the money suppy, after that are we looking at 1970s style stagflation ?

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/finance/11822659.asp?scr=1</blockquote>


Welcome to the world of economists! One of the reasons that we had such signficant wage/price inflation in the 70's is that much of the work force was unionized. This is not the case today, even less so with GM and Chrysler in BK. In fact, one of the first things Volker did was try to get the unions to negotiate on the pay increases. The unions didn't work with him much, so he was literally forced to raise interest rates to appalling levels in order to rein in the money supply.



The big question out there right now is if this huge jolt of money supply and fed spending will all of sudden be overkill and trigger inflation and if it does, whether the gov can rein it in. If big inflation hits, workers will see increases in their nominal wages, but even in the days of big unions, they still ended up losers in real terms. Our big hope for growth in this country is that we do develop the next new thing and remain leaders in technology.
 
[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1244595207][quote author="caycifish" date=1244508476]Here's my take:



My opinion, after many years of working in a male-dominated field, is that too many working husbands do not fully appreciate the work their housewife does, and would be completely incompetent if made to do their housewife's job. The flipside to that is that I see many housewives with a lack of appreciation for the value of a dollar earned. If your wife were the one earning the money you will spend on a house, how would she feel? Maybe the same, but maybe not. In harsh terms that are completely unrealistic for any functional marriage, my gut reaction is to tell your wife to go get a damn job to pay for her nesting instincts herself and then see how she feels about it.



In the real world, I'd make her walk through the crappy apartments you could afford (barely), and then make her walk through the houses you could afford if you wait. Window shopping on Ziprealty for North Tustin houses with huge lots helps me a lot. And maybe tell her to not worry about putting holes in the wall of your rental and decorate a little. That's what I do, anyway. This place will be swiss cheese before I leave. Oh, and I don't know what the kids situation is, but make sure she thinks about having space for the little ones that may exist now as well as possible little ones in the future. If relevant, the "what will we do if you get pregnant?" question must be discussed and may help you out.</blockquote>


Ouch...... I think someone has been working in a testosterone overload environment and is a wee bit overcooked.



I am the SAHM in this family, and my husband is the one who lights money on fire on a regular basis. Guess that blows your little theory?</blockquote>


Uh, not really. I included the word "many", as opposed to "all", for a reason. I'm only irritated by the SAHM's with complete disregard for financial prudence (that often get brought up in newbie threads). However, I'm not sure if there are a lot of them, or if the hubbies just come around here and try to blame the house buying on their SAHM's pushing so they don't look stupid. That is also plausible.



And I hope your husband appreciates the work you do as he lights your family's money on fire. :-)
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1244678091]

Uh, not really. I included the word "many", as opposed to "all", for a reason. I'm only irritated by the SAHM's with complete disregard for financial prudence (that often get brought up in newbie threads). However, I'm not sure if there are a lot of them, or if the hubbies just come around here and try to blame the house buying on their SAHM's pushing so they don't look stupid. That is also plausible.



And I hope your husband appreciates the work you do as he lights your family's money on fire. :-)</blockquote>


That is funny, Cayci. I have been wondering the exact same thing... if some of the men here are just saying "my wife thinks we should buy now... what should I do" because it is really them having these thoughts and like you said, maybe they want to defer the brunt of criticism. My other theory is that the wife may indeed be unhappy with the current living situation and is simply venting without expecting any change in circumstances. You know that you can not vent to a man without them feeling like they have to fix everything. So instead of just being a listener, they feel like they have to figure out how to fix it and come here to brainstorm, or... in their own way... are coming here just venting themselves. That is just my two-bit, arm-chair psychologist take on it. ;-)
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1244598052][quote author="gypsyuma" date=1244595207][quote author="caycifish" date=1244508476]Here's my take:



My opinion, after many years of working in a male-dominated field, is that too many working husbands do not fully appreciate the work their housewife does, and would be completely incompetent if made to do their housewife's job. The flipside to that is that I see many housewives with a lack of appreciation for the value of a dollar earned. If your wife were the one earning the money you will spend on a house, how would she feel? Maybe the same, but maybe not. In harsh terms that are completely unrealistic for any functional marriage, my gut reaction is to tell your wife to go get a damn job to pay for her nesting instincts herself and then see how she feels about it.



In the real world, I'd make her walk through the crappy apartments you could afford (barely), and then make her walk through the houses you could afford if you wait. Window shopping on Ziprealty for North Tustin houses with huge lots helps me a lot. And maybe tell her to not worry about putting holes in the wall of your rental and decorate a little. That's what I do, anyway. This place will be swiss cheese before I leave. Oh, and I don't know what the kids situation is, but make sure she thinks about having space for the little ones that may exist now as well as possible little ones in the future. If relevant, the "what will we do if you get pregnant?" question must be discussed and may help you out.</blockquote>


Ouch...... I think someone has been working in a testosterone overload environment and is a wee bit overcooked.



I am the SAHM in this family, and my husband is the one who lights money on fire on a regular basis. Guess that blows your little theory?</blockquote>


Cayci is a girl, and maybe you should get your Hub in check?</blockquote>


A bit surprising, but my response is still the same. I guess her male cohorts have her brainwashed or something?



About the "hub" - I gave up years ago.
 
[quote author="gypsyuma" date=1244688448]

A bit surprising, but my response is still the same. I guess her male cohorts have her brainwashed or something?

</blockquote>


ROFL!!!



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



My coworkers are the ones that I don't think appreciate the work their wives do at home, and I am so jealous that they can afford a housewife I can't see straight. Seriously not fair. I want one! My tongue is only sorta in my cheek here. I really am jealous.
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1244695592]My coworkers are the ones that I don't think appreciate the work their wives do at home, and I am so jealous that they can afford a housewife I can't see straight. Seriously not fair. I want one!</blockquote>
Wait... so then what is graph?



* ba dum dum ching *
 
Waiting until '10 or '11 is the right move. One thing too many people have forgotten in Orange County... you should generally not spend past 3x your gross income on your home... how many people really make enough to afford an OC home anyways? We're just over 150k gross and we are still waiting for the prices to come down more since affordability is really a priority.
 
[quote author="legoland" date=1245383379]Waiting until '10 or '11 is the right move. One thing too many people have forgotten in Orange County... you should generally not spend past 3x your gross income on your home... how many people really make enough to afford an OC home anyways? We're just over 150k gross and we are still waiting for the prices to come down more since affordability is really a priority.</blockquote>


The 800K and below market has bottomed, there's no denying this IHB, please just accept it. The massive wave of foreclosures never happened, nor will it ever happen due to the banks unwillingness to "mark to market" as well as the foreclosure moratoriums.



"Luxury" has many more months of pain.



That said, it's still not a bad idea to wait. Interest rates will likely rise, but more importantly, inflation will easily outpace home appreciation.
 
[quote author="tkaratz" date=1245413002][quote author="legoland" date=1245383379]Waiting until '10 or '11 is the right move. One thing too many people have forgotten in Orange County... you should generally not spend past 3x your gross income on your home... how many people really make enough to afford an OC home anyways? We're just over 150k gross and we are still waiting for the prices to come down more since affordability is really a priority.</blockquote>


The massive wave of foreclosures never happened, nor will it ever happen due to the banks unwillingness to "mark to market" as well as the foreclosure moratoriums.



</blockquote>


These graphs make it hard to believe that the wave of foreclosures will never happen



<img src="http://www.fieldcheckgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nod-surge.png" alt="" />



<img src="http://www.fieldcheckgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nts-bar-chart.png" alt="" />







All the moratoriums did was stall them from getting on the market. Instead of flooding the market in early 09, its coming in the second half of 09. It will be interesting to see if the June 09 NTS numbers can go past the high of May 09. If it correlates with the March 09 NODs then it should. Its hard to imagine that when foreclosure filings are surpassing 08's numbers that another wave isn't coming.

<img src="http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nationwide-foreclosure-filings.png" alt="" />
 
"Does this look like a second half recovery waiting to happen?"



It actually looks like the end of a wavy line.



Certainly, each submarket is different, but since this is the IHB housing blog, my comment is specific to Irvine and maybe orange county.



Well, your graphs also peak in June July August, I think a lot of were waiting for those REO's to hit the market as the timing seemed perfect (i.e. rapidly rising unemployment, consistent negative press, terrible financials from wall street), but it never happened. What's different about this next summer 09 peak? Unemployment rates are leveling off, the stock market has clearly reached a bottom. The economy may be stagnant, but there aren't many, if any, unknowns out there. What's more, people are starting to talk and the fact that the story that the entry level market is active and vibrant and that new homebuilders are starting to rise prices is getting around.
 
[quote author="tkaratz" date=1245415587]"Does this look like a second half recovery waiting to happen?"



It actually looks like the end of a wavy line.



Certainly, each submarket is different, but since this is the IHB housing blog, my comment is specific to Irvine and maybe orange county.



Well, your graphs also peak in June July August, I think a lot of were waiting for those REO's to hit the market as the timing seemed perfect (i.e. rapidly rising unemployment, consistent negative press, terrible financials from wall street), but it never happened. What's different about this next summer 09 peak? Unemployment rates are leveling off, the stock market has clearly reached a bottom. The economy may be stagnant, but there aren't many, if any, unknowns out there. What's more, people are starting to talk and the fact that the story that the entry level market is active and vibrant and that new homebuilders are starting to rise prices is getting around.</blockquote>


ROFL! Please tell me you are not being serious. You are joking, and just trying to play devil's advocate. Because if you are not, then you are a bit clueless of what is actually happening right now.



The jobs report in OC comes out tomorrow/today. Do you really think it will be positive or even flat? Just wait until the state jobs start to disappear since they are one of two sectors that have been growing the last two years.



Are you bullish on the stock market? Seriously? You are? Have you been buying? Cuz it sounds like a good time to set up the shorts again when I hear things like this.



Here are your foreclosures for Irvine. Up to 778 today, that is up from 720 two weeks ago, and up from 690ish two weeks before that.



http://i43.tinypic.com/t0qfsl.jpg



The dead cat bounce in the last cycle happened in 93, we are at about the same time line (90 peak, 93 dead cat bounce, 06 peak, 09 dead cat bounce), and we have record low interest rates like we did in 93. Only thing is foreclosures peaked in 1995 (2011) and 1996 (2012) before we really hit bottom. History always, always repeats itself. And to be an arrogant bastard, when have I ever been wrong about this RE market or the job market? Find me a post in the 4500 plus posts of mine where I was wrong about the RE market or jobs, seriously , I challenge you to find it.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1245423588][quote author="tkaratz" date=1245415587]"Does this look like a second half recovery waiting to happen?"



It actually looks like the end of a wavy line.



Certainly, each submarket is different, but since this is the IHB housing blog, my comment is specific to Irvine and maybe orange county.



Well, your graphs also peak in June July August, I think a lot of were waiting for those REO's to hit the market as the timing seemed perfect (i.e. rapidly rising unemployment, consistent negative press, terrible financials from wall street), but it never happened. What's different about this next summer 09 peak? Unemployment rates are leveling off, the stock market has clearly reached a bottom. The economy may be stagnant, but there aren't many, if any, unknowns out there. What's more, people are starting to talk and the fact that the story that the entry level market is active and vibrant and that new homebuilders are starting to rise prices is getting around.</blockquote>


ROFL! Please tell me you are not being serious. You are joking, and just trying to play devil's advocate. Because if you are not, then you are a bit clueless of what is actually happening right now.



The jobs report in OC comes out tomorrow/today. Do you really think it will be positive or even flat? Just wait until the state jobs start to disappear since they are one of two sectors that have been growing the last two years.



Are you bullish on the stock market? Seriously? You are? Have you been buying? Cuz it sounds like a good time to set up the shorts again when I hear things like this.



Here are your foreclosures for Irvine. Up to 778 today, that is up from 720 two weeks ago, and up from 690ish two weeks before that.



http://i43.tinypic.com/t0qfsl.jpg



The dead cat bounce in the last cycle happened in 93, we are at about the same time line (90 peak, 93 dead cat bounce, 06 peak, 09 dead cat bounce), and we have record low interest rates like we did in 93. Only thing is foreclosures peaked in 1995 (2011) and 1996 (2012) before we really hit bottom. History always, always repeats itself. And to be an arrogant bastard, when have I ever been wrong about this RE market or the job market? Find me a post in the 4500 plus posts of mine where I was wrong about the RE market or jobs, seriously , I challenge you to find it.</blockquote>
Be nice Graph, I think he's been brainwashed by all the talk of green shoots while the residential REOs and commercial real estate troubled loans pile up. Or maybe he's been listening to Jim Kramer a little too much.
 
[quote author="usctrojanman29" date=1245424397]Be nice Graph, I think he's been brainwashed by all the talk of green shoots while the residential REOs and commercial real estate troubled loans pile up. Or maybe he's been listening to Jim Kramer a little too much.</blockquote>


<a href="http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/commodities/the-next-big-investment-bubble-green-energy-14911.aspx">Here is an article that discusses the next bubble</a>. With our very own Vernon Smith showing how people will get sucked in not only once, but twice, and a third time when you reduce inventory and increase liquidity, much like what the Fed is doing now and what is happening in RE.



<em>In a recent research note, Montier took a look at the psychology of bubbles. As suggested earlier, you'd think that investors would learn. If they'd seen one bubble, they'd be more careful in future.



And in fact, they do learn. An experiment conducted by joint Nobel prize winner Vernon Smith used an investment game where investors could trade a dividend-paying equity under four different random economic conditions, each of which would result in a different dividend payout.



In the first game, investors at first undervalue the equity, then massively overvalue it, creating a bubble which then deflates. Smith then got the same people back to play the game again. What happened? Well, says Montier, "far from learning from their experience in the first round, participants generally go on to create yet another bubble!" And when they were asked why, "the most common response was they thought they could get out before the top this time!"



However, when Smith asked the same players to play a third time, this time they'd learned. "You end up with a much tighter correlation between the market price and fundamental value," says Montier.



So twice bitten, thrice shy, it seems. And you might therefore expect the current generation of investors to have learned from the two big bubbles of the past decade.

...but they can get sucked into creating them



But that's not the end of the story. Smith found that there was a way to get experienced investors back into bubble mentality. How? He cut the amount of stock available in half, and doubled the amount of cash in the game, "effectively creating what might be termed a massive liquidity surge." This time around, even the experienced investors were sucked back into creating another bubble, although it peaked earlier than the previous ones.



"A massive liquidity surge" is exactly what the world's central banks are trying to create just now. Montier says he has no idea if it will be large enough to "reignite a bubble (and of course another crash afterwards)." But as US fund manager Jeremy Grantham of GMO has pointed out previously, we're currently seeing "the greatest monetary and fiscal stimulus by far in US history". So if that doesn't do it, arguably nothing will. </em>
 
[quote author="tkaratz" date=1245415587]"Does this look like a second half recovery waiting to happen?"



It actually looks like the end of a wavy line.



Certainly, each submarket is different, but since this is the IHB housing blog, my comment is specific to Irvine and maybe orange county.



Well, your graphs also peak in June July August, I think a lot of were waiting for those REO's to hit the market as the timing seemed perfect (i.e. rapidly rising unemployment, consistent negative press, terrible financials from wall street), but it never happened. What's different about this next summer 09 peak? Unemployment rates are leveling off, the stock market has clearly reached a bottom. The economy may be stagnant, but there aren't many, if any, unknowns out there. What's more, people are starting to talk and the fact that the story that the entry level market is active and vibrant and that new homebuilders are starting to rise prices is getting around.</blockquote>
So, are you going to buy a home now?
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1245423588][quote author="tkaratz" date=1245415587]"Does this look like a second half recovery waiting to happen?"



It actually looks like the end of a wavy line.



Certainly, each submarket is different, but since this is the IHB housing blog, my comment is specific to Irvine and maybe orange county.



Well, your graphs also peak in June July August, I think a lot of were waiting for those REO's to hit the market as the timing seemed perfect (i.e. rapidly rising unemployment, consistent negative press, terrible financials from wall street), but it never happened. What's different about this next summer 09 peak? Unemployment rates are leveling off, the stock market has clearly reached a bottom. The economy may be stagnant, but there aren't many, if any, unknowns out there. What's more, people are starting to talk and the fact that the story that the entry level market is active and vibrant and that new homebuilders are starting to rise prices is getting around.</blockquote>


ROFL! Please tell me you are not being serious. You are joking, and just trying to play devil's advocate. Because if you are not, then you are a bit clueless of what is actually happening right now.



The jobs report in OC comes out tomorrow/today. Do you really think it will be positive or even flat? Just wait until the state jobs start to disappear since they are one of two sectors that have been growing the last two years.



Are you bullish on the stock market? Seriously? You are? Have you been buying? Cuz it sounds like a good time to set up the shorts again when I hear things like this.



Here are your foreclosures for Irvine. Up to 778 today, that is up from 720 two weeks ago, and up from 690ish two weeks before that.



http://i43.tinypic.com/t0qfsl.jpg



The dead cat bounce in the last cycle happened in 93, we are at about the same time line (90 peak, 93 dead cat bounce, 06 peak, 09 dead cat bounce), and we have record low interest rates like we did in 93. Only thing is foreclosures peaked in 1995 (2011) and 1996 (2012) before we really hit bottom. History always, always repeats itself. And to be an arrogant bastard, when have I ever been wrong about this RE market or the job market? Find me a post in the 4500 plus posts of mine where I was wrong about the RE market or jobs, seriously , I challenge you to find it.</blockquote>


What are the little stars on your map?
 
[quote author="tkaratz" date=1245415587]"Does this look like a second half recovery waiting to happen?"



It actually looks like the end of a wavy line.



Certainly, each submarket is different, but since this is the IHB housing blog, my comment is specific to Irvine and maybe orange county.



Well, your graphs also peak in June July August, I think a lot of were waiting for those REO's to hit the market as the timing seemed perfect (i.e. rapidly rising unemployment, consistent negative press, terrible financials from wall street), but it never happened. What's different about this next summer 09 peak? Unemployment rates are leveling off, the stock market has clearly reached a bottom. The economy may be stagnant, but there aren't many, if any, unknowns out there. What's more, people are starting to talk and the fact that the story that the entry level market is active and vibrant and that new homebuilders are starting to rise prices is getting around.</blockquote>


This sounds exactly like my father-in-law last weekend when we were discussing the economy/housing market. He's actually a very intelligent guy and even has experience in real estate. However, it absolutely blows my mind when I hear people talk like this. It's the CNBC and NAR press release effect.
 
[quote author="CougBear" date=1245451423][quote author="tkaratz" date=1245415587]"Does this look like a second half recovery waiting to happen?"



It actually looks like the end of a wavy line.



Certainly, each submarket is different, but since this is the IHB housing blog, my comment is specific to Irvine and maybe orange county.



Well, your graphs also peak in June July August, I think a lot of were waiting for those REO's to hit the market as the timing seemed perfect (i.e. rapidly rising unemployment, consistent negative press, terrible financials from wall street), but it never happened. What's different about this next summer 09 peak? Unemployment rates are leveling off, the stock market has clearly reached a bottom. The economy may be stagnant, but there aren't many, if any, unknowns out there. What's more, people are starting to talk and the fact that the story that the entry level market is active and vibrant and that new homebuilders are starting to rise prices is getting around.</blockquote>


This sounds exactly like my father-in-law last weekend when we were discussing the economy/housing market. He's actually a very intelligent guy and even has experience in real estate. However, it absolutely blows my mind when I hear people talk like this. It's the CNBC and NAR press release effect.</blockquote>


Deja vu, that sounds like my father-in-law from a week ago!! My father-in-law was a bear (maybe still is), but since last week he has been saying its time to buy. This is sudden for a person who experienced the 70s as well as 90s bear market and made a fortune.
 
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