Which Personal Finance or Investment Books have you read?
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Are you confusing "investment advice" with "stock pick tips"? Kiyosaki, Ramsey, and other personal finance gurus share advice on how to think about your money and how to manage it best. These personal finance types don't give stock tips.
Yet Kiyosaki has no wealth accumulation to show prior to his books getting popular (mainly due to being roped into MLM schemes as part of the fantasy of getting rich - note that success rates in MLM ventures are at best 2%). Yes, there are many capable investors out there but he should not be grouped in that bunch. Let's call his book what it is: a motivational piece of fiction.
No disagreement. But you're talking about paying for transaction services, not an investment management services. Just as your lawyer or accountant provide legal and tax-related advice, not investment advice. Now some generalizations that you might call "investment" advice might fall into their services, but they will be very quick to disclaim that they are providing any investment advice. Their job is not to help you create wealth.
That's the rub because investment gurus like Kiyosaki *are* trying to sell wealth creation, often with no prior track record of doing so themselves. When a great investor exists, there is no shortage of capital in this world rushing to give him or her money to manage. That person will be too busy managing money, taking a cushy asset management fee. He won't be slumming it with the 99%, selling books and seminars.
Perfect analogy! Religion is great when people use it as general guidelines for living a moral and disciplined life. But we all know how dangerous it can be, especially when used by those who tend to be poor, downtrodden, and less educated. What do you think is the target market for self help gurus?
I think this is a tough argument here because there's sample bias on this website. Here we have a group of well-educated, well-informed people with interests that slant toward real estate. RDPD is likely one of many books on similar subjects that you've read and by now you've examined countless conflicting wealth mgmt strategies. The books serve to motivate you to at least think about how you manage your finances but I don't see anyone here as one of the typical demographic that these so-called wealth managers shill towards.
Now the other beef I have particular to Kiyosaki is the claims he makes and the size of the deals he touts in real estate aren't realistic because they would be institutional, and quite frankly he doesn't run in those circles. For example, in December he was making the rounds on interviews that he just financed an apartment portfolio for $300 million at 2.5%.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/rich-dad-poor-dad-author-015800882.html
First of all, the pricing is completely unrealistic. Neither Kiyosaki himself nor any entity he controls can borrow at 25 bps over T at that time. Apartment loans do tend to be priced tighter than other commercial properties, but that's because lenders can flip them to Fannie and Freddie. But that means loans need to conform to the general criteria the govt sponsored entities dole out. The GSEs are looking at spreads of about 250-275 bps, not 25 bps.
Also, a deal of that size meant an institutional lender - a major bank, lifeco, or debt fund. Even then, the loan might needed to be syndicated (chopped up into smaller loans). These end up being fairly transparent and widely discussed deals. Before anyone says, well maybe he did it on the DL through entities, no he didn't. Even someone as secretive as Donald Bren can't prevent leaks even as the silent equity partner behind a real estate financing.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...e-bren-is-secret-owner-of-nyc-s-metlife-tower
Lenders have federally-mandated Know Your Customer laws. You can't borrow that much money without a ton of due diligence. Also those loans get published in databases and discussed in industry rags such as Commercial Mortgage Alert, as they eventually need to get traded. Never seen $300 million of credit exposure to Robert Kiyosaki discussed or traded.
When it comes to Ray Dalios, he is indeed brilliant. I've had the pleasure of hearing him speak. He will not talk about investing except in very vague terms. If you ask him for an investment idea, he'll shut you down. Instead he wants to talk life philosophy and other random musings. Maybe because he has no interest in sharing his secret sauce, maybe he has no interest in talking shop when he doesn't have to.
There are other very successful investors like that - the last thing they want to do is talk about investing. Seth Klarman of Baupost or Jim Simmons of Renaissance are other extremely secretive guys. Klarman wrote a book called "Margin of Safety" in the early 90s. When it was out of print, he wouldn't let the publisher reissue more. PDF copies are even hard to come by but it does float around investment management circles. A real hard copy is like a Stradivarius violin. Used copies sell for more $1000+ on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0887305105/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all
Buffet is a bit more open about investing criteria, but still talks in generalizations about value investing and long term trends. If you really want a stock pick, he'll give one out every so often but you have probably have to bid on a million dollar lunch to have a one on one. In other words, he's not that interested in talking about it.
Call me a cynic, but I generally don't believe anyone who sells investment advice for a living to actually be good at investing. Because if you're that good, the inherent greed in all of us will steer you toward a life of institutional investment management, not self-help seminars. Kiyosaki has built a nice career, no doubt about that. By estimates his net worth is around $50-100M. I'll take that any day. But I wonder how much of that wealth was generated by his actual investments and how much from charging people whether in person or through books to discuss his investments. The top people in the wealth management business are worth billions but won't share with you how they did. I guess Robert Kiyosaki is the most generous man ever.
There are other very successful investors like that - the last thing they want to do is talk about investing. Seth Klarman of Baupost or Jim Simmons of Renaissance are other extremely secretive guys. Klarman wrote a book called "Margin of Safety" in the early 90s. When it was out of print, he wouldn't let the publisher reissue more. PDF copies are even hard to come by but it does float around investment management circles. A real hard copy is like a Stradivarius violin. Used copies sell for more $1000+ on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0887305105/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all
Buffet is a bit more open about investing criteria, but still talks in generalizations about value investing and long term trends. If you really want a stock pick, he'll give one out every so often but you have probably have to bid on a million dollar lunch to have a one on one. In other words, he's not that interested in talking about it.
Call me a cynic, but I generally don't believe anyone who sells investment advice for a living to actually be good at investing. Because if you're that good, the inherent greed in all of us will steer you toward a life of institutional investment management, not self-help seminars. Kiyosaki has built a nice career, no doubt about that. By estimates his net worth is around $50-100M. I'll take that any day. But I wonder how much of that wealth was generated by his actual investments and how much from charging people whether in person or through books to discuss his investments. The top people in the wealth management business are worth billions but won't share with you how they did. I guess Robert Kiyosaki is the most generous man ever.
panda
Well-known member
Acpme,
Firstly, I want to say that it is really refreshing to start seeing some good content from intelligent posters are like you and Paris.
Ray Dalio is the economic genius of our time and he runs the largest hedge fund in the world. Rarely you would see him talk about anything in specific terms about investing. My personal investment philosophy is this. To become a successful investor, one must invest only in what they themselve have a wealth of knowledge about. In the macro trend market, you don't have to be an expert in many things, but study, research, and master 2-3 macro strategies and you will run around circles of a investor who is a jack of all trades and master of none. One must concentrate on what they know. . . and concentrate their research and resources there.
I agree with you about that generally you don't believe anyone who sells investment advice for a living to be actualy be a good a investing. If we are talking about securities licenses. Ones with securities licenses like series 6,7, and life insurance are selling investment products but not necessary a wealth manager. Many product oriented financial advisors believe they are wealth managers while the they are not. The top people in the wealth management business are true wealth managers, not investment or financial advisors who are selling you insurance products, mutual funds and stocks. These wealth managers take a more holistic view on wealth management and have a well thought out wealth management process that they are very confident in. The robo advisors will replace the traditional financial advisors who only understand how to asset allocate. The top wealth managers are the financial quarterback to their affluent clients.
Firstly, I want to say that it is really refreshing to start seeing some good content from intelligent posters are like you and Paris.
Ray Dalio is the economic genius of our time and he runs the largest hedge fund in the world. Rarely you would see him talk about anything in specific terms about investing. My personal investment philosophy is this. To become a successful investor, one must invest only in what they themselve have a wealth of knowledge about. In the macro trend market, you don't have to be an expert in many things, but study, research, and master 2-3 macro strategies and you will run around circles of a investor who is a jack of all trades and master of none. One must concentrate on what they know. . . and concentrate their research and resources there.
I agree with you about that generally you don't believe anyone who sells investment advice for a living to be actualy be a good a investing. If we are talking about securities licenses. Ones with securities licenses like series 6,7, and life insurance are selling investment products but not necessary a wealth manager. Many product oriented financial advisors believe they are wealth managers while the they are not. The top people in the wealth management business are true wealth managers, not investment or financial advisors who are selling you insurance products, mutual funds and stocks. These wealth managers take a more holistic view on wealth management and have a well thought out wealth management process that they are very confident in. The robo advisors will replace the traditional financial advisors who only understand how to asset allocate. The top wealth managers are the financial quarterback to their affluent clients.
acpme said:
nosuchreality
Well-known member
While I agree that most selling investment advise aren't necessarily good at it's execution, you need to remember that everybody needs to get something for a deal to get done. They aren't going to give you the information for free. Even a mentor requires the investment in time and respect.
Much like a RE agent, they need a slice. Often that slice is the most beneficial way of actually getting things done. Just keep open eyes and open minds.
You wouldn't pass up a RE deal just because the agents are making 6% or they're offering you extra services like tenant screening, advertising, etc for a fee. You would pass up that agent if they just pumping junk at you.
Much like a RE agent, they need a slice. Often that slice is the most beneficial way of actually getting things done. Just keep open eyes and open minds.
You wouldn't pass up a RE deal just because the agents are making 6% or they're offering you extra services like tenant screening, advertising, etc for a fee. You would pass up that agent if they just pumping junk at you.
Perspective
Well-known member
acpme said:
Are you confusing "investment advice" with "stock pick tips"? Kiyosaki, Ramsey, and other personal finance gurus share advice on how to think about your money and how to manage it best. These personal finance types don't give stock tips.
Perspective said:
Yet Kiyosaki has no wealth accumulation to show prior to his books getting popular (mainly due to being roped into MLM schemes as part of the fantasy of getting rich - note that success rates in MLM ventures are at best 2%). Yes, there are many capable investors out there but he should not be grouped in that bunch. Let's call his book what it is: a motivational piece of fiction.
nosuchreality said:
No disagreement. But you're talking about paying for transaction services, not an investment management services. Just as your lawyer or accountant provide legal and tax-related advice, not investment advice. Now some generalizations that you might call "investment" advice might fall into their services, but they will be very quick to disclaim that they are providing any investment advice. Their job is not to help you create wealth.
That's the rub because investment gurus like Kiyosaki *are* trying to sell wealth creation, often with no prior track record of doing so themselves. When a great investor exists, there is no shortage of capital in this world rushing to give him or her money to manage. That person will be too busy managing money, taking a cushy asset management fee. He won't be slumming it with the 99%, selling books and seminars.
panda
Well-known member
Financial advisors provide both transactional services (series 6,7, insurance ) and investment and asset management services (series 65). In the wealth management world, only the top 1% of the wealth managers make over a million dollars a year. Most of these FAs (Financial Advisors) started out as transactional advisors selling mutual funds, annunities, stocks, life insurance (term & whole) but eventually evolved into Assets Under Management Advisor where they are compensated by the % of the assets they are managing not by each securities transaction.
Middle class millionaries prefer to work with wealth managers (77.1%) and only a minority will work with Financial Advisors (18.8%) and Investment Advisor / planner (4.1%).
The chart is pretty interesting. Private money managers, hedge fund of funds and hedge funds are of acute interest to middle class millionaires , but they have very limited experience with them. Individual securities, real estate, and managed accounts are all of higher interest and higher usage among middle class milliionaires. Very few middle class millionaires get excited at the prospect of purchasing life insurance. Annuities, mutual funds, life insurance, long term care insurance, and derivatives are all considered more transactional products with more less usuage and low interest among middle class millionaires.
Middle class millionaries prefer to work with wealth managers (77.1%) and only a minority will work with Financial Advisors (18.8%) and Investment Advisor / planner (4.1%).
The chart is pretty interesting. Private money managers, hedge fund of funds and hedge funds are of acute interest to middle class millionaires , but they have very limited experience with them. Individual securities, real estate, and managed accounts are all of higher interest and higher usage among middle class milliionaires. Very few middle class millionaires get excited at the prospect of purchasing life insurance. Annuities, mutual funds, life insurance, long term care insurance, and derivatives are all considered more transactional products with more less usuage and low interest among middle class millionaires.
Perspective
Well-known member
peppy - "Let's call his book what it is: a motivational piece of fiction."
So it's no different than religious texts thousands of years old. If it serves people well, who cares if it's fiction?
So it's no different than religious texts thousands of years old. If it serves people well, who cares if it's fiction?
Perspective said:
Perfect analogy! Religion is great when people use it as general guidelines for living a moral and disciplined life. But we all know how dangerous it can be, especially when used by those who tend to be poor, downtrodden, and less educated. What do you think is the target market for self help gurus?
I think this is a tough argument here because there's sample bias on this website. Here we have a group of well-educated, well-informed people with interests that slant toward real estate. RDPD is likely one of many books on similar subjects that you've read and by now you've examined countless conflicting wealth mgmt strategies. The books serve to motivate you to at least think about how you manage your finances but I don't see anyone here as one of the typical demographic that these so-called wealth managers shill towards.
Now the other beef I have particular to Kiyosaki is the claims he makes and the size of the deals he touts in real estate aren't realistic because they would be institutional, and quite frankly he doesn't run in those circles. For example, in December he was making the rounds on interviews that he just financed an apartment portfolio for $300 million at 2.5%.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/rich-dad-poor-dad-author-015800882.html
First of all, the pricing is completely unrealistic. Neither Kiyosaki himself nor any entity he controls can borrow at 25 bps over T at that time. Apartment loans do tend to be priced tighter than other commercial properties, but that's because lenders can flip them to Fannie and Freddie. But that means loans need to conform to the general criteria the govt sponsored entities dole out. The GSEs are looking at spreads of about 250-275 bps, not 25 bps.
Also, a deal of that size meant an institutional lender - a major bank, lifeco, or debt fund. Even then, the loan might needed to be syndicated (chopped up into smaller loans). These end up being fairly transparent and widely discussed deals. Before anyone says, well maybe he did it on the DL through entities, no he didn't. Even someone as secretive as Donald Bren can't prevent leaks even as the silent equity partner behind a real estate financing.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...e-bren-is-secret-owner-of-nyc-s-metlife-tower
Lenders have federally-mandated Know Your Customer laws. You can't borrow that much money without a ton of due diligence. Also those loans get published in databases and discussed in industry rags such as Commercial Mortgage Alert, as they eventually need to get traded. Never seen $300 million of credit exposure to Robert Kiyosaki discussed or traded.