Unreal: YES on 2 and NO on 4

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[quote author="irvinesinglemom" date=1225970128]The issue of abortion should ONLY be open to legal restriction by women. Men should have NO say, whatsoever, on this issue. Until such time as they can "get themselves pregnant" like so many girls and women have supposedly done over the centuries.</blockquote>
I'll agree to that, as long as you agree that men who are unwilling or unknowing fathers have no legal responsibility to support either the mother or the child.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1225969845][quote author="WINEX" date=1225963050][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1225961789][quote author="WINEX" date=1225958371][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1225957326][quote author="WINEX" date=1225951094]



BLTSERV, I am going to guess that you still don't realize what a disgusting piece of shit you are. If you did realize, you would have done the right thing a long time ago.</blockquote>


No name calling or negative characterizations please. We can disagree about politics, and we can even get heated about it, but this crosses the line.



That goes for everyone.</blockquote>


Is calling someone a KKK member acceptable around here?</blockquote>


Acceptable? I suppose that one is a judgment call. A ridiculous and stupid thing to say. Yes.



Everyone. Stop the name calling and negative characterizations, or I will close this thread and kill it.</blockquote>


I'm just trying to get some clarity. The only thing I can assume from observation that the judgment call is based on who calls who what, not on what someone is called.</blockquote>


Let's be clear. You called someone a piece of shit. That crosses the line. I don't want to spend my time trying to figure out where the line is, nor do I want to become part of the PC thought police bullshit movement. I want to read the forums and enjoy myself. I do not want to spend my time babysitting a bunch of adults behaving like juveniles. When I see something obvious, I am going to stop it. If it is not so obvious, I will probably let it go.</blockquote>


From my perspective, BLTSERV is posting inaccurate slanders while I am simply posting a statement of fact. It's kind of hard to tell what the line denotes if you say that I have crossed it, but that he hasn't.
 
[quote author="irvinesinglemom" date=1225970128]The issue of abortion should ONLY be open to legal restriction by women. Men should have NO say, whatsoever, on this issue. Until such time as they can "get themselves pregnant" like so many girls and women have supposedly done over the centuries.</blockquote>


You are an intelligent woman, but the argument you are trying to advance is really nonsensical and very arrogant.



If a woman could make a decision to terminate a pregnancy in a manner that had no impact on anyone else, you would have a point. But the fact is that from the moment of conception a unique human life is created. Our freedoms are based on concepts that allow individuals to act as they want until the point comes where their actions interfere with someone else's freedoms. At that point, your freedom to act is limited to actions that don't interfere with another's rights. The right to life of an abortion victim outweighs the convenience of the mother and those rights must be protected.



Protecting the innocent isn't the exclusive domain of one gender or the other. If we want to call ourselves "human", we should all be doing whatever we can to defend those who can't defend themselves.
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1225977635][quote author="irvinesinglemom" date=1225970128]The issue of abortion should ONLY be open to legal restriction by women. Men should have NO say, whatsoever, on this issue. Until such time as they can "get themselves pregnant" like so many girls and women have supposedly done over the centuries.</blockquote>
I'll agree to that, as long as you agree that men who are unwilling or unknowing fathers have no legal responsibility to support either the mother or the child.</blockquote>


While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.
 
Winex, since you support teenage girls having children, I am going to assume that you also support having your taxes raised to support those soon-to-be welfare mothers. You should be celebrating Obama's victory.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226006591][quote author="Nude" date=1225977635][quote author="irvinesinglemom" date=1225970128]The issue of abortion should ONLY be open to legal restriction by women. Men should have NO say, whatsoever, on this issue. Until such time as they can "get themselves pregnant" like so many girls and women have supposedly done over the centuries.</blockquote>
I'll agree to that, as long as you agree that men who are unwilling or unknowing fathers have no legal responsibility to support either the mother or the child.</blockquote>


While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.</blockquote>
Not if you are pro-choice, as I am.
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1226013393][quote author="WINEX" date=1226006591][quote author="Nude" date=1225977635][quote author="irvinesinglemom" date=1225970128]The issue of abortion should ONLY be open to legal restriction by women. Men should have NO say, whatsoever, on this issue. Until such time as they can "get themselves pregnant" like so many girls and women have supposedly done over the centuries.</blockquote>
I'll agree to that, as long as you agree that men who are unwilling or unknowing fathers have no legal responsibility to support either the mother or the child.</blockquote>


While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.</blockquote>
Not if you are pro-choice, as I am.</blockquote>


When do you believe that life begins?
 
[quote author="EvaLSeraphim" date=1225976545]



Objectively, I think as a being that can type, we can conclude that BLT is not a "piece of shit."

</blockquote>


ROFLMAO! Eva, you rule!
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1226016947][quote author="EvaLSeraphim" date=1225976545]



Objectively, I think as a being that can type, we can conclude that BLT is not a "piece of shit."

</blockquote>


ROFLMAO! Eva, you rule!</blockquote>
Ditto and then I laughed again remembering Roo's old avatar and the discussions around what it really was.
 
[quote author="ABC123" date=1226009873]Winex, since you support teenage girls having children, I am going to assume that you also support having your taxes raised to support those soon-to-be welfare mothers. You should be celebrating Obama's victory.</blockquote>


You obviously haven't read much of what I have posted here. If you had, then you would know that I don't believe in having the government involved in anything it is not authorized to do by the Constitution. By definition, anyone wanting an abortion doesn't want to raise a child. There is no shortage of people wanting to adopt children. The problem of raising children who aren't murdered is easily solved through adoption.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226016056][quote author="Nude" date=1226013393][quote author="WINEX" date=1226006591]While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.</blockquote>
Not if you are pro-choice, as I am.</blockquote>


When do you believe that life begins?</blockquote>
At birth, whenever that occurs during gestation.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226017613][quote author="ABC123" date=1226009873]Winex, since you support teenage girls having children, I am going to assume that you also support having your taxes raised to support those soon-to-be welfare mothers. You should be celebrating Obama's victory.</blockquote>


You obviously haven't read much of what I have posted here. If you had, then you would know that I don't believe in having the government involved in anything it is not authorized to do by the Constitution. By definition, anyone wanting an abortion doesn't want to raise a child. There is no shortage of people wanting to adopt children. The problem of raising children who aren't murdered is easily solved through adoption.</blockquote>


You're right. My eyes generally gloss over most of what you post. Since you're so altruistic, I congratulate you in advance for adopting one of those unwanted children. I suggest you start your search in some of the nearby dumpsters.
 
Expect to be seeing more stories like this in the future:



<a href="http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1768848.php">Baby girl found at Denny's in Anaheim</a>



<em>ANAHEIM ? A customer at a Denny?s restaurant found a newborn baby girl in a trash can inside the women?s restroom Monday afternoon, police said.



The baby girl was breathing when she was discovered at about noon at 1168 W. Katella Ave. near Disneyland, Anaheim police Sgt. Rick Martinez said.



Fire dispatchers instructed the customer who found the baby to administer first aid prior to the arrival of paramedics. The baby was then taken to Western Medical Center-Anaheim and is in good condition, Martinez said.



?It?s obvious that the child was in danger of dying and we are fortunate that the quick actions of many people, including the paramedics resulted in this baby living,? Martinez said.



A 17-year-old girl from Indiana with blood-stained pants and blood dripping down her legs was also transported to the hospital.</em>
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1226018506][quote author="WINEX" date=1226016056][quote author="Nude" date=1226013393][quote author="WINEX" date=1226006591]While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.</blockquote>
Not if you are pro-choice, as I am.</blockquote>


When do you believe that life begins?</blockquote>
At birth, whenever that occurs during gestation.</blockquote>


What's your opinion of partial-birth abortion?
 
[quote author="ABC123" date=1226018895]Expect to be seeing more stories like this in the future:



<a href="http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1768848.php">Baby girl found at Denny's in Anaheim</a>



<em>ANAHEIM ? A customer at a Denny?s restaurant found a newborn baby girl in a trash can inside the women?s restroom Monday afternoon, police said.



The baby girl was breathing when she was discovered at about noon at 1168 W. Katella Ave. near Disneyland, Anaheim police Sgt. Rick Martinez said.



Fire dispatchers instructed the customer who found the baby to administer first aid prior to the arrival of paramedics. The baby was then taken to Western Medical Center-Anaheim and is in good condition, Martinez said.



?It?s obvious that the child was in danger of dying and we are fortunate that the quick actions of many people, including the paramedics resulted in this baby living,? Martinez said.



A 17-year-old girl from Indiana with blood-stained pants and blood dripping down her legs was also transported to the hospital.</em></blockquote>


I remember that story. My first thought was "How's that for a vacation memory?"
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226006591][quote author="Nude" date=1225977635][quote author="irvinesinglemom" date=1225970128]The issue of abortion should ONLY be open to legal restriction by women. Men should have NO say, whatsoever, on this issue. Until such time as they can "get themselves pregnant" like so many girls and women have supposedly done over the centuries.</blockquote>
I'll agree to that, as long as you agree that men who are unwilling or unknowing fathers have no legal responsibility to support either the mother or the child.</blockquote>


While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.</blockquote>


As much as I agree with you, Winex... I think Nude's point was that... if men have no say in the matter then they shouldn't be financially responsible either. If women get to make all the decisions, they should have all the responsibilities too. It is not fair to the fathers to view them only as Johnny Paycheck and give them no say in the matter. (I don't think his point is that the fathers have no moral responsibility to support their own offpsring. That's how it sounded but I don't think that's what he means.) Does that sound about right, Nude? If not, please correct me.
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1226020424][quote author="WINEX" date=1226006591][quote author="Nude" date=1225977635][quote author="irvinesinglemom" date=1225970128]The issue of abortion should ONLY be open to legal restriction by women. Men should have NO say, whatsoever, on this issue. Until such time as they can "get themselves pregnant" like so many girls and women have supposedly done over the centuries.</blockquote>
I'll agree to that, as long as you agree that men who are unwilling or unknowing fathers have no legal responsibility to support either the mother or the child.</blockquote>


While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.</blockquote>


As much as I agree with you, Winex... I think Nude's point was that... if men have no say in the matter then they shouldn't be financially responsible either. If women get to make all the decisions, they should have all the responsibilities too. It is not fair to the fathers to view them only as Johnny Paycheck and give them no say in the matter. (I don't think his point is that the fathers have no moral responsibility to support their own offpsring. That's how it sounded but I don't think that's what he means.) Does that sound about right, Nude? If not, please correct me.</blockquote>


Thanks, and that is my interpretation as well. (It's a different topic, but I have read of male sperm donors being forced to support their offspring)



In case it isn't clear, my own personal belief is that the right to life trumps everything else. Also, if you look at the scientific definition of life, it is clear that life begins at conception.
 
Right - I agree with you. I shudder to think how a father feels when he does want the baby and the mother chooses to end his child's life. That just happened this summer to a neighbor of mine. She and her husband already have two kids and she felt two and nothing more, was the perfect family size. (They do not struggle financially and they have lots of family support too. She found out she was expecting. Her husband wanted the baby but she went had an abortion. I can't imagine how it would feel to be a man and feel so helpless in that situation. I'm not looking to spark any big debates but I am a woman and that is just how I feel.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226019456][quote author="Nude" date=1226018506][quote author="WINEX" date=1226016056][quote author="Nude" date=1226013393][quote author="WINEX" date=1226006591]While economics is behind a lot of my political belief system, I think focusing on money issues here is wrong. The rights of abortion victims should be the primary concern.</blockquote>
Not if you are pro-choice, as I am.</blockquote>


When do you believe that life begins?</blockquote>
At birth, whenever that occurs during gestation.</blockquote>


What's your opinion of partial-birth abortion?</blockquote>
Let me be clear so you can quit trying to draw me into whatever trap you think I am falling into here.



Life begins at birth. In humans, the period of gestation is ~9 months. It is possible to give birth to a child sooner and have it survive naturally (meaning normal respiration, feeding, growing, etc.) or be "viable" if you like, but anything earlier than ~7 1/2 months into the gestation period would require massive amount of medical assistance to survive. Depending on where one lives, that assistance may or may not be available which means the fetus may or may not be viable. And now to your question and it's point: If a fetus is aborted prior to it being naturally viable, then the process (no matter how graphically one wishes to describe it) is not murder because it would not be living outside of the womb either. After the point of natural viability, it is my belief that an abortion procedure would be a murder of a child.



Medical advances might one day make possible in vitro gestation and we can all re-define life to suit current technology if we wish, but until a human fetus can live and develop outside of the womb with no medical assistance, it cannot be considered "life" in my mind.
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1226016947][quote author="EvaLSeraphim" date=1225976545]



Objectively, I think as a being that can type, we can conclude that BLT is not a "piece of shit."

</blockquote>


ROFLMAO! Eva, you rule!</blockquote>


Yikes. I didnt realize that my using the words "Rope" and "Sheet" could cause such a fuss.



As others have mentioned. I always wonder how a poor family that is already on welfare

or assistance. Something most conservatives find very vile in its own right. Lets say

the 15 year old girl is molested by an older cousin or other relative. Genetically this

is a dangerous pregnancy to take to term. Also the trauma has already been realized by the victim. So the "state" should force the victim to see the pregnancy to term ?

Who is going to support this victim and the possible health care costs of a genetically

deficient child ? Conservatives want no part in the long term situation. They just want to live in their narrow world and "Save a Life". Its not "When does life begin". Its up to the woman. Its HER BODY. Not the states. By forcing these laws upon society we create the

underground abortion clinic. Or force poor people to cross state lines or go to Mexico

or Canada.



I have a personal experience on this subject. My mother who has since passed away this year

had a botched abortion as a young woman. It ruined her "Female" health for a good part of her

adult life. It was something she talked little about. By outlawing abortion we are taking

the rights of women away from them. And as other have said. Men will never know or experience this situation first hand.



Thank god Obama will keep our Supreme Court from becoming too "right of center" and Roe v Wade is safe for more than likely another generation.
 
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