CalBears96
Well-known member
morekaos said:
I knew you were dense, but I didn't know you were this dense.
"The best defense against catching COVID-19 is to intentionally catch COVID-19."
University of California
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I knew you were dense, but I didn't know you were this dense.
"The best defense against catching COVID-19 is to intentionally catch COVID-19."
Not sure if hard leaned political views really messed up my mind. I really do understand it's possible and your thinking may be true for some parts, but besides from all those political stuff, I'm just having simple questions as a person not as a politician.
I personally never get the flu vaccine and I would question the same if they were to mandate it. Sure those vaccines, whether covid or flu or whatever, could be effective, but mandating is another story, especially for kids as low as 5 or K-12. Like I asked before, so what about those kids who rather do not want to get it? This is one example, but there are things that come along with decisions we make. If you or "experts" think the outcome outweighs those sacrifices, then that's your opinion. The fact is that there are sacrifices made. I don't think I ever got this idea from any politicians or Youtubers.
Also isn't it just pure simple that it should be mandated for more risked group of people? Why all the sudden put the pressure on the total other side of the group? I don't follow those far-right medias so if they happened to bring up the same issue as I'm talking about, then it's either coincidence or maybe I'm just getting as old as them lol. I totally understand the vaccine mandate for crowded places like stadiums and such, but not in a public school where EVERY kid will have to attend when the size is not even as big while they're not even a risked category by datas your trusted experts tell us about.
After the elder population got vaccinated, we actually did see the younger crowd contracting COVID-19, although the symptoms weren't as bad. However, they still can spread the virus. So it's not just protecting them, but protecting their family as well. I'm not sure why you think public schools aren't crowded places. There are 30-35 students in a classroom. And have you ever seen the school corridors when the students switch classrooms?
And I'm sure you realize that risk category severity of the symptoms, not the inability to resist contracting COVID-19. As for October 6th, the age groups with the most COVID-19 cases in California are 18-34 and 35-49, 50-59 and 5-17 come next. Of course, these age groups make up for most of the population, but if we compare %, they are still more.
18-34:
1,512,991 cases (33.4% of the cases) - 24.3% of the population
1,115 deaths
35-49:
1,067,931 cases (23.6% of the cases) - 19.3% of the population
4,479 deaths
5-17:
545,040 cases (12.0% of the cases) - 16.7% of the population
26 deaths
So you can see, there are still 545,040 5-17 kids catching the virus. You can say, "only" 26 died, but that's 26 too many.
Source:https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COVID-19-Cases-by-Age-Group.aspx
The point is, vaccine can help prevent COVID-19. Why are so many people so adamantly against it?
There is a huge difference between someone choosing to get injected versus forcing someone to get injected. Do you really think it is not a big deal to force an injection on someone who does not want it?
People absolutely do care about what is in their food, water, and air. We have choices on whether to eat processed food, organic food, nonGMO food, etc. We buy water softeners and install RO systems to clean our Irvine water. We try to live away from freeways and buy air purifiers to have better air.
Again, not against the vaccine being available. Just stating things that come along when *mandated*.
According to your research, the age group of 18-34 and/or 35-49 should be mandated before 5-17 group. The ages of 5-17 should be the third in terms of priority of mandated group here. Why put them in first now?
So explain why Singapore...mandated vaccines and 90% of the population is vaccinated is seeing a surge in infections. The vaccine is only a temporary and very specific fix. The variants are going around it. Natural immunity fights off variants more efficiently. Keep getting vaccinated and create more Pharmaceutical billionaires. Remember when those guys were all labeled evil?
Singapore reports worst daily Covid case tally in more than a year
Government pauses reopening plans after 837 new daily infections, despite just four deaths in a month among 80% vaccinated population
Eighty-one per cent of the entire population is fully vaccinated ? excluding under-12s, it is 90%
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/singapore-reports-biggest-spike-in-covid-cases-in-a-year-despite-81-vaccination-rate
Pfizer scientists: Natural immunity better than our vaccine
'Alternate treatments pushed aside over money.' Scientists involved in development of Pfizer vaccine say natural immunity likely superior.
[url]https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/314561[/url]
Covid vaccine profits mint 9 new pharma billionaires
London (CNN Business)Covid-19 vaccines have created at least nine new billionaires after shares in companies producing the shots soared.
Topping the list of new billionaires are Moderna (MRNA) CEO St?phane Bancel and Ugur Sahin, the CEO of BioNTech (BNTX), which has produced a vaccine with Pfizer (PFE). Both CEOs are now worth around $4 billion, according to an analysis by the People's Vaccine Alliance, a campaign group that includes Oxfam, UNAIDS, Global Justice Now and Amnesty International.
Senior executives from China's CanSino Biologics and early investors in Moderna have also become billionaires on paper as shares skyrocketed, partly in expectation of profits earned from Covid vaccines, which also bode well for the companies' future prospects. The analysis was compiled using data from the Forbes Rich List.
Moderna's share price has gained more than 700% since February 2020, while BioNTech has surged 600%. CanSino Biologics' stock is up about 440% over the same period. The company's single-dose Covid-19 vaccine was approved for use in China in February.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/business/covid-vaccine-billionaires/index.html
you can make a vaccine a requirement for certain activities. you can't just tell someone they have to get a vaccine based on their age.
don't ask me why, i didn't write the constitution.
Very well said. So since they can?t make certain age group get vaccinated, they made ?k-12? group mandated. You know K-12 is pretty much all children at 5-17, right? Well 6-18 if you really want to get real technical, but you get the idea.
Also keep in mind that I never said we should mandate certain age groups. I only countered CalBears96?s research since his research shows 5-17 were the least infected yet they?re now facing the mandate.
Yes, because it will be tied up in courts. Does he have the authority to make permanent school policy based on temporary emergency powers? In my opinion, no, that violates the separation of powers in the California state constitution. He's also trying to apply it to private schools, which are not state -run or -funded, so his executive orders have no legal effect or practical enforcement mechanism there.
I knew you were dense, but I didn't know you were this dense.
"The best defense against catching COVID-19 is to intentionally catch COVID-19."
morekaos
Well-known member
When we were kids parents used to have chicken pox parties to purposefully infect their kids. Tens of millions have now had this virus. Many were not and probably won?t get vaxed now. It?s natures way. Bummer but who ever said life was easy. I am actually happy my whole family is now naturally immune. Bummer for you if you?re not.
CalBears96 said:
Not sure if hard leaned political views really messed up my mind. I really do understand it's possible and your thinking may be true for some parts, but besides from all those political stuff, I'm just having simple questions as a person not as a politician.
I personally never get the flu vaccine and I would question the same if they were to mandate it. Sure those vaccines, whether covid or flu or whatever, could be effective, but mandating is another story, especially for kids as low as 5 or K-12. Like I asked before, so what about those kids who rather do not want to get it? This is one example, but there are things that come along with decisions we make. If you or "experts" think the outcome outweighs those sacrifices, then that's your opinion. The fact is that there are sacrifices made. I don't think I ever got this idea from any politicians or Youtubers.
Also isn't it just pure simple that it should be mandated for more risked group of people? Why all the sudden put the pressure on the total other side of the group? I don't follow those far-right medias so if they happened to bring up the same issue as I'm talking about, then it's either coincidence or maybe I'm just getting as old as them lol. I totally understand the vaccine mandate for crowded places like stadiums and such, but not in a public school where EVERY kid will have to attend when the size is not even as big while they're not even a risked category by datas your trusted experts tell us about.
CalBears96
Well-known member
Mety said:
After the elder population got vaccinated, we actually did see the younger crowd contracting COVID-19, although the symptoms weren't as bad. However, they still can spread the virus. So it's not just protecting them, but protecting their family as well. I'm not sure why you think public schools aren't crowded places. There are 30-35 students in a classroom. And have you ever seen the school corridors when the students switch classrooms?
And I'm sure you realize that risk category severity of the symptoms, not the inability to resist contracting COVID-19. As for October 6th, the age groups with the most COVID-19 cases in California are 18-34 and 35-49, 50-59 and 5-17 come next. Of course, these age groups make up for most of the population, but if we compare %, they are still more.
18-34:
1,512,991 cases (33.4% of the cases) - 24.3% of the population
1,115 deaths
35-49:
1,067,931 cases (23.6% of the cases) - 19.3% of the population
4,479 deaths
5-17:
545,040 cases (12.0% of the cases) - 16.7% of the population
26 deaths
So you can see, there are still 545,040 5-17 kids catching the virus. You can say, "only" 26 died, but that's 26 too many.
Source:https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COVID-19-Cases-by-Age-Group.aspx
The point is, vaccine can help prevent COVID-19. Why are so many people so adamantly against it?
But now parents get their kids vaccinated against chicken pox, in order to avoid the risk of encephalitis and death, that while rare, accompany an active chicken pox infection.
Just like the covid vaccine.
it is people like you who are endangering children and the immune compromised who cannot be effectively protected, and prolonging this economic tragedy.
Just like the covid vaccine.
it is people like you who are endangering children and the immune compromised who cannot be effectively protected, and prolonging this economic tragedy.
morekaos said:
fatduck said:
There is a huge difference between someone choosing to get injected versus forcing someone to get injected. Do you really think it is not a big deal to force an injection on someone who does not want it?
People absolutely do care about what is in their food, water, and air. We have choices on whether to eat processed food, organic food, nonGMO food, etc. We buy water softeners and install RO systems to clean our Irvine water. We try to live away from freeways and buy air purifiers to have better air.
CalBears96 said:
Again, not against the vaccine being available. Just stating things that come along when *mandated*.
According to your research, the age group of 18-34 and/or 35-49 should be mandated before 5-17 group. The ages of 5-17 should be the third in terms of priority of mandated group here. Why put them in first now?
morekaos
Well-known member
freedomcm said:
So explain why Singapore...mandated vaccines and 90% of the population is vaccinated is seeing a surge in infections. The vaccine is only a temporary and very specific fix. The variants are going around it. Natural immunity fights off variants more efficiently. Keep getting vaccinated and create more Pharmaceutical billionaires. Remember when those guys were all labeled evil?
Singapore reports worst daily Covid case tally in more than a year
Government pauses reopening plans after 837 new daily infections, despite just four deaths in a month among 80% vaccinated population
Eighty-one per cent of the entire population is fully vaccinated ? excluding under-12s, it is 90%
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/singapore-reports-biggest-spike-in-covid-cases-in-a-year-despite-81-vaccination-rate
Pfizer scientists: Natural immunity better than our vaccine
'Alternate treatments pushed aside over money.' Scientists involved in development of Pfizer vaccine say natural immunity likely superior.
[url]https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/314561[/url]
Covid vaccine profits mint 9 new pharma billionaires
London (CNN Business)Covid-19 vaccines have created at least nine new billionaires after shares in companies producing the shots soared.
Topping the list of new billionaires are Moderna (MRNA) CEO St?phane Bancel and Ugur Sahin, the CEO of BioNTech (BNTX), which has produced a vaccine with Pfizer (PFE). Both CEOs are now worth around $4 billion, according to an analysis by the People's Vaccine Alliance, a campaign group that includes Oxfam, UNAIDS, Global Justice Now and Amnesty International.
Senior executives from China's CanSino Biologics and early investors in Moderna have also become billionaires on paper as shares skyrocketed, partly in expectation of profits earned from Covid vaccines, which also bode well for the companies' future prospects. The analysis was compiled using data from the Forbes Rich List.
Moderna's share price has gained more than 700% since February 2020, while BioNTech has surged 600%. CanSino Biologics' stock is up about 440% over the same period. The company's single-dose Covid-19 vaccine was approved for use in China in February.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/business/covid-vaccine-billionaires/index.html
morekaos
Well-known member
Yes, making a decision based on odds. Odds of dying from this are actually relatively low. For children close to 0. So...if we allow people to make their own decisions why care who gets the vaccine? If you are vaccinated fine (you have saved yourself and are protected) if one decides to risk the odds and not get vaccinated then he is taking his chances. Who cares if he contracts it or even dies...his choice. We make similar risk reward choices every time we get in a car. Never want to die in an auto accident?...don't get in one, its a sure thing.
that's not the same as saying "everyone in this age group has to go get a vaccine."Mety said:
you can make a vaccine a requirement for certain activities. you can't just tell someone they have to get a vaccine based on their age.
don't ask me why, i didn't write the constitution.
fatduck said:
Very well said. So since they can?t make certain age group get vaccinated, they made ?k-12? group mandated. You know K-12 is pretty much all children at 5-17, right? Well 6-18 if you really want to get real technical, but you get the idea.
Also keep in mind that I never said we should mandate certain age groups. I only countered CalBears96?s research since his research shows 5-17 were the least infected yet they?re now facing the mandate.
sgip
Well-known member
First - without question, all deaths from COVID-19 are terrible.
Second - there is also no question that the prevention or even reduction of deaths by COVID is remotely possible even by full vaccination, requiring masks, social distancing, or any by any other method available.
So what are the risks? What source is a valid measurement we could use to discuss?
Per CDC numbers,
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku/data
from 1/1/2020 to 10/13/2021 all COVID 19 deaths for those aged between 0 and 24 years if age totalled 2,467. Divided by 21.5 months, that's 114 deaths per month.
Total deaths within that same age group equalled 171,400. COVID deaths then were around 1.5% of the total number of those who perished during this same time period.
Can it be justified to disrupt the lives of approximately 58 million children under the age of 14 for a disease that impacts a fraction of that population? The numbers simply don't have the weight of authority here.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/270000/age-distribution-in-the-united-states/
325m x 18% for -0- to 14 year aged population group = 58m.
Would I want to have my child on the losing end of a COVID battle? Of course not. That's also not the issue here. The issue is should force be applied in this case to compel vaccination? If you have the numbers, please show your sources and your work on the question.
My .02c
Second - there is also no question that the prevention or even reduction of deaths by COVID is remotely possible even by full vaccination, requiring masks, social distancing, or any by any other method available.
So what are the risks? What source is a valid measurement we could use to discuss?
Per CDC numbers,
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku/data
from 1/1/2020 to 10/13/2021 all COVID 19 deaths for those aged between 0 and 24 years if age totalled 2,467. Divided by 21.5 months, that's 114 deaths per month.
Total deaths within that same age group equalled 171,400. COVID deaths then were around 1.5% of the total number of those who perished during this same time period.
Can it be justified to disrupt the lives of approximately 58 million children under the age of 14 for a disease that impacts a fraction of that population? The numbers simply don't have the weight of authority here.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/270000/age-distribution-in-the-united-states/
325m x 18% for -0- to 14 year aged population group = 58m.
Would I want to have my child on the losing end of a COVID battle? Of course not. That's also not the issue here. The issue is should force be applied in this case to compel vaccination? If you have the numbers, please show your sources and your work on the question.
My .02c
Liar Loan
Well-known member
Mety said:
Yes, because it will be tied up in courts. Does he have the authority to make permanent school policy based on temporary emergency powers? In my opinion, no, that violates the separation of powers in the California state constitution. He's also trying to apply it to private schools, which are not state -run or -funded, so his executive orders have no legal effect or practical enforcement mechanism there.
morekaos
Well-known member
Again...playing the odds...
The Risk to Kids From COVID Is Miniscule. Do Not Let Them Mandate Vaccines
I remember quite clearly the first time I explained what COVID was to my young children in early March of 2020. I lay down in one of their beds at bedtime and told them about what it was and how it might affect our lives for the next few weeks or perhaps even the next month or two (oh, how naive I was then!). I reassured them about their safety and ours, and pulled up a chart from China and Italy about the death rates broken down by age. I explained to them the nature of the virus, that it thankfully spared children of their age, and almost everyone under the age of 40. I comforted them that their grandparents and great-grandmother would exercise caution due to their increased risk, but thankfully, everyone their parents' age and down, but kids especially, were statistically quite safe from ill-effects, even if they were to get sick.
Nearly two years later, the data has continued to bear this out. As the New York Times' David Leonhardt pointed out this week, an unvaccinated child is at less risk of serious Covid illness than a vaccinated 70-year-old?even a vaccinated 40-year-old, according to a British study.
https://www.newsweek.com/risk-kids-covid-miniscule-do-not-let-them-mandate-vaccines-opinion-1638576
The Risk to Kids From COVID Is Miniscule. Do Not Let Them Mandate Vaccines
I remember quite clearly the first time I explained what COVID was to my young children in early March of 2020. I lay down in one of their beds at bedtime and told them about what it was and how it might affect our lives for the next few weeks or perhaps even the next month or two (oh, how naive I was then!). I reassured them about their safety and ours, and pulled up a chart from China and Italy about the death rates broken down by age. I explained to them the nature of the virus, that it thankfully spared children of their age, and almost everyone under the age of 40. I comforted them that their grandparents and great-grandmother would exercise caution due to their increased risk, but thankfully, everyone their parents' age and down, but kids especially, were statistically quite safe from ill-effects, even if they were to get sick.
Nearly two years later, the data has continued to bear this out. As the New York Times' David Leonhardt pointed out this week, an unvaccinated child is at less risk of serious Covid illness than a vaccinated 70-year-old?even a vaccinated 40-year-old, according to a British study.
https://www.newsweek.com/risk-kids-covid-miniscule-do-not-let-them-mandate-vaccines-opinion-1638576