The Wall

[eyephone]

The Mexican President just announced he will not attend the scheduled meeting with Trump.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/mexico-president-donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-border-wall/

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I think the point is that you have to try. Even on a symbolic basis a border is more than a line in the sand. Lack of an impediment is an open invitation.

To tie in to Movingup's police statement, wouldn't the "try" be better using an active deterrent rather than a passive one like a wall?

Instead of using money for a wall, use it for surveillance technology and increase in border patrol personnel. That even creates more jobs.

 

[morekaos]

They plan on that too. Relative to the taxpayer costs in welfare and medical benefits paid by the taxpayer for illegals the cost of the wall is a drop in the bucket.  Additionally whether actually or by some accounting trickery I do believe he will recoup the costs from the Mexicans....he has to deliver on that promise, one way or another.

 

[Movingup]

They plan on that too. Relative to the taxpayer costs in welfare and medical benefits paid by the taxpayer for illegals the cost of the wall is a drop in the bucket.  Additionally whether actually or by some accounting trickery I do believe he will recoup the costs from the Mexicans....he has to deliver on that promise, one way or another.

It's exactly what I am thinking. Even if my tax money is needed to build the wall, I am glad to do it rather than seeing my love ones getting hurt or killed by illegals. As you said, we, the taxpayers are wasting massive amount of money to provide free education, healthcare to the illegals. No mas!

 

[Movingup]

The Mexican President just announced he will not attend the scheduled meeting with Trump.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/mexico-president-donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-border-wall/

Mexico President trying to go against a successful businessman and the most powerful country. I think I know who is the favorite to win this battle.

 

[peppy]

They plan on that too. Relative to the taxpayer costs in welfare and medical benefits paid by the taxpayer for illegals the cost of the wall is a drop in the bucket.  Additionally whether actually or by some accounting trickery I do believe he will recoup the costs from the Mexicans....he has to deliver on that promise, one way or another.

He already said the repayment will be something "complicated", so in other words we are paying for it. Let's just be honest with the fact that the US is going to drop around $40bn into this pet project. It will not stop people from crossing the border, they will only be slowed down by it. Latest claims indicate that it will not fully span the border anyways.

You can argue that a reduction in the rate of border crossings has an impact on federal outlays, but that still doesn't mean that someone else is paying for it. If one really cared about recouping the federal outlays from the existing population of undocumented immigrants, amnesty and collection of income taxes/payroll/etc would close that gap. Maybe a guest worker program that uses border entry fees to collect the necessary revenue.

 

[Movingup]

He already said the repayment will be something "complicated", so in other words we are paying for it. Let's just be honest with the fact that the US is going to drop around $40bn into this pet project. It will not stop people from crossing the border, they will only be slowed down by it. Latest claims indicate that it will not fully span the border anyways.

You can argue that a reduction in the rate of border crossings has an impact on federal outlays, but that still doesn't mean that someone else is paying for it. If one really cared about recouping the federal outlays from the existing population of undocumented immigrants, amnesty and collection of income taxes/payroll/etc would close that gap. Maybe a guest worker program that uses border entry fees to collect the necessary revenue.

Just to emphasize, the physical wall is part of the security, not the ONLY means to deter/stop illegals. On getting money back from collecting income taxes, there is a reason why illegals are illegals, they are poorly educated, unskilled, or criminals. You are more likely to provide them welfare than collecting peanuts granting them amnesty.

 

[socal78]

To tie in to Movingup's police statement, wouldn't the "try" be better using an active deterrent rather than a passive one like a wall?

Instead of using money for a wall, use it for surveillance technology and increase in border patrol personnel. That even creates more jobs.

Yesterday, Trump authorized the DHS to hire 5,000 more border patrol officers and triple its roster of immigration enforcement agents.

 

[peppy]

To tie in to Movingup's police statement, wouldn't the "try" be better using an active deterrent rather than a passive one like a wall?

Instead of using money for a wall, use it for surveillance technology and increase in border patrol personnel. That even creates more jobs.

Yesterday, Trump authorized the DHS to hire 5,000 more border patrol officers and triple its roster of immigration enforcement agents.

You want to solve the problem for real? Significantly penalize the employers if they hire undocumented workers.

 

[nosuchreality]

You want to solve the problem for real? Significantly penalize the employers if they hire undocumented workers.

Yep, spend the money fixing e-verify and then put a few C-levels in a orange suited perp walk, then it'll curtail the problem.

So where do we draw the line between the meat-packing plant, the central valley farm, the small business person and the Irvine homeowner with their cash paid 'maid'.

 

[peppy]

You want to solve the problem for real? Significantly penalize the employers if they hire undocumented workers.

Yep, spend the money fixing e-verify and then put a few C-levels in a orange suited perp walk, then it'll curtail the problem.

So where do we draw the line between the meat-packing plant, the central valley farm, the small business person and the Irvine homeowner with their cash paid 'maid'.

No need to draw a line. Add a paper trail and a true SS verification system. You step out of that, say in the form of under the table cash payments, and you open yourself up to criminal prosecution. Done. And pay $8/lb for your tomatoes once that is in place.

 

[nosuchreality]

You want to solve the problem for real? Significantly penalize the employers if they hire undocumented workers.

Yep, spend the money fixing e-verify and then put a few C-levels in a orange suited perp walk, then it'll curtail the problem.

So where do we draw the line between the meat-packing plant, the central valley farm, the small business person and the Irvine homeowner with their cash paid 'maid'.

No need to draw a line. Add a paper trail and a true SS verification system. You step out of that, say in the form of under the table cash payments, and you open yourself up to criminal prosecution. Done. And pay $8/lb for your tomatoes once that is in place.

Current labor cost per pound of tomatoes comes in around 20 cents. 
http://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/u...e1-469c-9eae-8458c3badedf/tomatofrmktsj07.pdf

Now that study is getting a bit old, but obviously with labor base rates a $8/hr and $10/hr.

Since farmer selling price is $6.50/25-lb box, there's obviously a lot of loss at the middle men.

 

[peppy]

You want to solve the problem for real? Significantly penalize the employers if they hire undocumented workers.

Yep, spend the money fixing e-verify and then put a few C-levels in a orange suited perp walk, then it'll curtail the problem.

So where do we draw the line between the meat-packing plant, the central valley farm, the small business person and the Irvine homeowner with their cash paid 'maid'.

No need to draw a line. Add a paper trail and a true SS verification system. You step out of that, say in the form of under the table cash payments, and you open yourself up to criminal prosecution. Done. And pay $8/lb for your tomatoes once that is in place.

Current labor cost per pound of tomatoes comes in around 20 cents. 
http://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/u...e1-469c-9eae-8458c3badedf/tomatofrmktsj07.pdf

Now that study is getting a bit old, but obviously with labor base rates a $8/hr and $10/hr.

Since farmer selling price is $6.50/25-lb box, there's obviously a lot of loss at the middle men.

You also get a drastic reduction in labor supply once you employ legal workers only.

$0.20/lb of tomato seems high. That would be $5.00/25-lb box but you say they are being sold at $6.50/box. What kind of margin is the farmer getting?

 

[nosuchreality]

Table 2 in the UC Davis report.    Gross returns $6760/acre,  total operating costs, $5458/acre, capital & overhead cash costs $382/acre,  etc. Net Returns $871/acre.

That's 12.8%  Land costs is covered in the Opex under land rent.  $250/acre.

 

[peppy]

Table 2 in the UC Davis report.    Gross returns $6760/acre,  total operating costs, $5458/acre, capital & overhead cash costs $382/acre,  etc. Net Returns $871/acre.

That's 12.8%  Land costs is covered in the Opex under land rent.  $250/acre.

I didn't realize that such a high percentage was going into labor (on the growers side). A 20% increase would kill any margin the grower/farmer has. What sets the price of tomatoes on the open bulk market? $6.50/25lb box seems crazy low. Is the grower getting shafted on this one? I understand there is a cost to do distribution and refrigeration plus any sort of losses of unsold inventory, but still ... yikes! The worst part is that after all this they taste like crap.

 

[peppy]

So, seems like we went from Mexico is going to pay the wall to US consumers are going to pay for the wall (via 20% tariff) and congress is going to appropriate $12bn for it from your tax dollars.

 

[eyephone]

So, seems like we went from Mexico is going to pay the wall to US consumers are going to pay for the wall (via 20% tariff) and congress is going to appropriate $12bn for it from your tax dollars.

The US may initially pay for the wall, however Mexico will pay for it via tax on remittance that are sent from US to Mexico and/or tariffs. If you look at my previous post with source, the amount was around $24.6 billion dollars last year (Jan-16 through nov-16).

 

[nosuchreality]

Table 2 in the UC Davis report.    Gross returns $6760/acre,  total operating costs, $5458/acre, capital & overhead cash costs $382/acre,  etc. Net Returns $871/acre.

That's 12.8%  Land costs is covered in the Opex under land rent.  $250/acre.

I didn't realize that such a high percentage was going into labor (on the growers side). A 20% increase would kill any margin the grower/farmer has. What sets the price of tomatoes on the open bulk market? $6.50/25lb box seems crazy low. Is the grower getting shafted on this one? I understand there is a cost to do distribution and refrigeration plus any sort of losses of unsold inventory, but still ... yikes! The worst part is that after all this they taste like crap.

I miss No_Vas for these discussions.  The price is set like any other commodity.  In a nutshell, the grower is shafted, has been since the 1980s, but IMHO, the consolidation of major global corporations in the middle man roles has shifted balance.

Watch something like "Food inc.", "King Corn", "Farmageddon" or other resources.  The downside is pretty big, IMHO.  The main plus is our grocery shelves are stuffed with "cheap" food.

 

[eyephone]

Table 2 in the UC Davis report.    Gross returns $6760/acre,  total operating costs, $5458/acre, capital & overhead cash costs $382/acre,  etc. Net Returns $871/acre.

That's 12.8%  Land costs is covered in the Opex under land rent.  $250/acre.

I didn't realize that such a high percentage was going into labor (on the growers side). A 20% increase would kill any margin the grower/farmer has. What sets the price of tomatoes on the open bulk market? $6.50/25lb box seems crazy low. Is the grower getting shafted on this one? I understand there is a cost to do distribution and refrigeration plus any sort of losses of unsold inventory, but still ... yikes! The worst part is that after all this they taste like crap.

I miss No_Vas for these discussions.  The price is set like any other commodity.  In a nutshell, the grower is shafted, has been since the 1980s, but IMHO, the consolidation of major global corporations in the middle man roles has shifted balance.

Watch something like "Food inc.", "King Corn", "Farmageddon" or other resources.  The downside is pretty big, IMHO.  The main plus is our grocery shelves are stuffed with "cheap" food.

We can talk about the guest worker program after the border is secured or automation.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-limit-loss-of-u-s-farm-workers-to-trump-wall

Warehouse robot!!http://www.betaboston.com/news/2016...tup-that-debuted-new-warehouse-robot-in-2015/

 

[sgip]

They could re-do the old Bracero program, but fix the labor condition issues and have some fair pay arrangements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program

To apply to become a Bracero a "wall tax" of some sort would be included. Some employers might pay it - meaning us consumers - but most guest workers would pay it as an entrance fee to the program.

There is a way, but no matter what there will be opposition to anything that resembles immigration re-regulation.

My .02c