The morality of walking away from debt

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
What is happening to the currently unused credit in HELOCs? Can banks rescend the offer of the credit? Is that happening right now?



What is to stop someone who is underwater with their mortgage, but still has some unused HELOC available from maxing that out, then defaulting? Are HELOCs generally recourse or non-recourse loans?
 
<em>"Can banks rescend the offer of the credit? Is that happening right now?"</em>





Yes to both.





<em>"What is to stop someone who is underwater with their mortgage, but still has some unused HELOC available from maxing that out, then defaulting?"</em>





Not much.





<em>"Are HELOCs generally recourse or non-recourse loans?"</em>





They are recourse loans because they are not purchase-money loans, so in theory, you couldn't just deposit the cash in a bank then default. However, it can be difficult for banks to find money hidden in your mattress.
 
<p>There's an article on the economic consequences of morality I found on the Economist via calculated risk, if anyone still wants to opine on this.</p>

<p>Conclusion is descendents of more moral systems are better off, tho his methodalogy is only hinted at. Italy is particularly noteworthy because it united only relatively recently and the various parts had very different govts and customs, including of course the areas with Mafia connections.</p>
 
<p>After reading the pros and cons of this subject. I find that certain proponents for walking away has their own agenda. Not because they care about the individuals involve. But rather these proponents are hoping for a certain economic outcome from their advise.</p>
 
I hate to get into details b/c I don't want another uproar of disagreement. But what I find from reading the aforementioned blogs on this matter, it's obvious that certain individuals are predicting a certain outcome. And by giving such advise as "walking" away. It's not so much of their kindness or care for the homebuyers or debtors. But rather, they want a mass exodus of such so that it will fulfill their prediction.
 
<p>The true morality is giving such advise because you genuinely care about your fellow man. And not because you have an agenda behind such advise. That's all. (This is not directed at you, Liz)</p>
 
<p>I thought this <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119872013682151831.html?mod=todays_us_opinion">opinion article in today's WSJ</a> was relevant to this discussion...</p>

Debt and Responsibility

By <strong>ROB ASGHAR</strong>


December 27, 2007; Page A10




<p class="times">I blame the borrower. Yes, on the eve of an election year, it is bad politics and bad manners to say that the "little guy" deserves the brunt of the blame for the global subprime mortgage crisis. But I blame him nonetheless, with minimal qualifications and apologies.</p>

<p class="times">Remember, first of all, that the 2008 elections will be decided by this same little guy. Remember that, as America seeks to bring the gospel of freedom to societies such as my native Pakistan, we must convince these nations that their own little guys can be trusted in decisions both grand and small. Once, America's little guy was sane enough. He saved a dime on every dollar in the 1980s and a nickel on every dollar into the 1990s. Then, infected by rampant and ill-considered consumerism, he helped the national savings rate go negative in 2005, for the first time since the Great Depression.</p>

<p class="times">The little guy has wanted the government off his back and has hoped to release as few of his hard-earned dollars as possible to that fat bureaucracy. Now he longs for a paternal force to save him from people who promised to help him keep up with his overspending neighbors.</p>

<p class="times">On the surface at least, it would seem that others would make better scapegoats. I dealt with such potential scapegoats in 2004 and 2005, when I spent two years as the communications director at a burgeoning subprime mortgage originator in Orange County, Calif.</p>

<p class="times">Pricey and posh Orange County office complexes housed half of America's 20 leading subprime lenders. I occasionally asked mortgage executives what explained this coincidence. The question puzzled them. They lived in ocean-view Newport Beach homes. Why would they want to work anywhere else? The subprime industry chose to ignore economic and efficiency factors that had driven so many other businesses far from the costly California coast.</p>

<p class="times">Another peculiarity was compensation. Top salespersons at companies such as New Century Mortgage Corporation often drew astronomical seven-figure salaries (and perks such as first-class trips to Spain and Germany). Capped teeth and breast implants trumped a work ethic for many who aspired to make it in subprime sales. Their counterparts in prime lending were lucky if they reached six figures.</p>

<p class="times">Investors foolishly tossed billions of dollars at inefficient enterprises while expecting massive, long-term benefits. New Century's now-laughable slogan was "a new shade of blue-chip," and Wall Street proved gullible for a long time.</p>

<p class="times">By and large, the lenders were no less irresponsible than the borrowers who aspired to live a bigger life than they could afford. But all of the strange creatures of subprime -- the overpaid loan officers, bloated budgets, lavish Las Vegas "planning meetings" and the like -- were nurtured by consumers who believed that incurring massive debt was the secret to becoming a rich landholder (or boat owner).</p>

<p class="times">Regulation of the industry may address some problems -- but not without creating the new ones that inevitably result from straitjacketing the free market. Besides, market forces were already slaying subprime's monsters. By late 2005, most in the business knew the feast was entering its final moments.</p>

<p class="times">The recent effort by the Bush administration to help a segment of subprime borrowers is, fortunately, a mostly cosmetic matter. (One mortgage executive tells me that only about 5% of the loans in his company's loan portfolio will be affected.) Policy makers in Washington would do well to leave it at that. We need bureaucratic meddling far less than we need a sober and clear-eyed citizenry.</p>

<p class="times">As my own friends bought and maintained homes, I quietly mused about how the homes owned them, not the other way around. I moved often, based on job commitments, with no interest in buying a house.</p>

<p class="times">I may own a home someday, if prices return to sane levels once unfettered market forces play out their Shiva-esque roles as both Creator and Destroyer of fortunes. When the average person learns to treat those forces with humility and respect, we'll all be served far better than by any political promises that claim to stand up for the little guy.</p>

<p class="times"><em><strong>Mr. Asghar is a writer and editor based in Southern California.</strong></em></p>

<p></p>
 
<p><a href="http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/01/wachovia-homeowners-just-walking-away.html">Wachovia: Homeowners just Walking Away</a> </p>

<p>http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/01/wachovia-homeowners-just-walking-away.html</p>
 
<p>This is a slippery slope that is bound to do nothing but accelerate.</p>

<p>Frankly, this is why I knew we were screwed in 2005 and why I am so glad I didn't participate. I can't fathom the BK.</p>
 
<p>Pain goes through the roof - Home foreclosures in California surge in the fourth quarter of 2007 to more than double the previous record.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-foreclosures23jan23,1,6863107.story?coll=la-headlines-business">http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-foreclosures23jan23,1,6863107.story?coll=la-headlines-business</a></p>

<p> A tipping point? "Foreclose me ... I'll save money"</p>

<p>http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/01/a-tipping-point.html</p>
 
<p>I know anon already posted this one, but it's worth a repost for perspecitve:</p>

<p><a href="http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/01/a-tipping-point.html">http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/01/a-tipping-point.html</a></p>

<p><em>"I am one of these people. My condo has dropped in value from $520K in 5/06 when I bought it to $350K now. My ARM payment will probably go up $900 per month in June. </em></p>

<p><em>"Despite all this, I would be willing to stay if the bank would refi the loans to a 30 year fixed, but since I'm not a 'hardship' case they'd apparently rather foreclose. I guess the only way I could qualify for loan mitigation is to get my boss to fire me, stop making payments, and wreck my credit. In fact, my bank won't even talk to me until I miss a couple of payments. </em></p>

<p><em>"I have purchased a cheaper place in a nearby area now, while my credit is good, and will stop making payments on house #1 after house #2 closes. I know the foreclosure will be on my credit for 7 years, but I will have saved a lot of money."</em></p>

<p>Whee!</p>
 
<p>Comment from <a href="http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/5072386324256276576/">http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/5072386324256276576/</a></p>

<p><img class="gravatar" title="Gravatar" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1px; PADDING-LEFT: 1px; FLOAT: right; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1px; MARGIN: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 1px" alt="Gravatar" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=3b7fdcab8dfb57595260887edb1ccdeb&default=http%3A%2F%2Fec1.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FG%2F01%2Fx-locale%2Fcommon%2Ftransparent-pixel.gif&rating=PG&size=28" /> <em>It's only a zero sum game if the Fed does not play along. With interest rates falling, future losses can be slowed or avoided all together if people can refinance out of ARMs into 5.25% fixed rate mortgages.</em>





The problem, again, is that is both desirable and easy for many people to simply default.





I talked to someone currently behind on their payments and they were actually elated at the prospect of walking away from their current home and renting in the same neighborhood at far less than their mortgage payment. Even much lower interest rates don't erase negative equity and large payments on an artificially bloated principal. Default does.





"My credit was shot anyhow."





ac | 01.24.08 - 12:37 pm | <a title="Link to this comment" href="http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/5072386324256276576/#391177">#</a> </p>
 
<p><a href="http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/01/more-on-homeowners-walking-away.html">More on Homeowners Walking Away</a> </p>

<p>http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/01/more-on-homeowners-walking-away.html</p>
 
One comment from the CR link above..





<em>Wow, I have a friend who paid off his mortgage years ago that is now considering "just walking away" because it's the cool thing to do.





He said something about expanding his social network.





ac | 01.25.08 - 1:39 pm | <a title="Link to this comment" href="http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/2286197438394503518/#392271">#</a> </em>
 
<p>The second bank KNOWS condoblue will default on house #1, and is giving the loan on house #2 anyway.</p>

<p>The lender on house #1 is ignoring condoblue's attempts to negotiate--essentially because it is too cheap to hire enough personnel to deal with the mess.</p>

<p>I was waivering on this. Now I'm not. Lenders need to be punished for their stupidity. Let'em all walk, and let'em eat cake while they are doing it!!</p>

<p>Lender's procedures are just a list of meaningless rules, where creativity is needed. Let that business model bite the dust.</p>
 
<p>Jinglemail video from Fox Business</p>

<p>http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=289004&cl=6129189&src=finance&ch=1316259</p>
 
<p>Inspired by some stuff on Calculated Risk, I have done some further thought on this.</p>

<p>What we have here is the functional equivalent of a peasant's revolt. That is to say, civil war. The peasants in such a revolt usually lose. Lots of times 'cause instead of taking some small winnings to the bank and consolidating things, they get all heady with power, and bite off more than they can chew.</p>

<p>Anyway, jingle mail is an infinitely more civilized way of conducting a war, than an actual war. Neighborhoods are harmed, sure, but not the way having your village burned to the ground by angry aristos, and your headman hanged, and your cattle stolen. And altho it will hurt all of us, arguably it will hurt the aristos in the money pouch quite hard--no more huge bonuses for a while etc.</p>

<p>What think you?</p>
 
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