Measure M (SVUSD) in 2020 asked for $495M. I think it broke down into $30m per year? That didn’t even factor in building a new school and was put on the ballot with BR at buildout (or near full buildout)? I get the frustration - hope these 500 homes move the needle. Not sure how you even rally support - half (more?) the development was sold to investors who DGAF.
The Meadows, Lake Forest by Toll Brothers
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So with that understanding, why does it matter if the school is not ranked 9/10 or 10/10? Sure, full classrooms doesn’t give a “good” learning experience compared to a smaller class, but it’s also not the end of the world.
I get your post isn’t related to this but it might give light into why majority of parents in LF doesn’t want to push too much for a new school. Don’t know how it’s funded but I can tell you no one in LF wants to pay MR. People live in LF and not Irvine for exactly that reason.
1) It's not a choice of a 9/10 or 10/10 school. Lake Forest Elementary, the school SVUSD assigned The Meadows to, is a 5/10 per GreatSchools.org
2) Lake Forest Elementary is roughly a 15 minute drive from The Meadows. Potentially 4 times per weekday depending on the family's situation. There are more many productive uses of time than driving an hour per day for school pickup/drop-off.
3) I agree class size isn't the single determining factor in education, but it does make a difference, especially when kids are young. 30 children in a classroom with one teacher can quickly turn to chaos and interfere with learning. It can be miserable for the teacher as well, which can deter desirable teachers. It's also indicative of how the school/district is managing it's resources and how much resources they have. Larger class size suggest they're short on resources or allocating them poorly.
4) Parents generally want to give their kids the best start possible. The best schools, the most quality time together, and so on.
A new school in the neighborhood is a step towards #4 and is attractive to families who place a high value on devoting resources to help their children excel. Irvine Company / City of Irvine recognizes this. The builders at Tustin Legacy / City of Tustin recognized this. Even TB recognizes this, which is probably why they pulled this marketing stunt. But these are apparently not priorities to SVUSD or Lake Forest.
With that said, I wouldn’t mind having a better school. I mean who doesn’t? But at the same time the question always comes down to who is paying. I’m already being taxed everyday. Do I want to get taxed even more for a “better” school? Not really. We aren’t talking about the current school system in LF being like Compton.
As for our family, I’m hoping to have a couple kids in the near future.
Just making a guess based on my observations. But even if it was 100% owner occupied, you would still have a hard time rallying support. Most people are apathetic. To really care about this issue, you need people with young young kids bc it'll take years for an elem school to be built. You'll get some who don't want more housing but not enough to counter the rest of LF. You'll get some from BR to care but who's to say they'll even be zoned to this new school. No one in LF feels bad for the 500 households in some brand new $1M++ community with no new school when the rest of the districts' schools all need capital improvements. I have long given up on Lake Forest and the education there. Good luck!
someguy
Active member
Maybe people will surprise the board and make their voices heard. I hear a Lake Forest council member may be at the meeting tonight to show support. I'd encourage anyone with a vested interest in an elementary school at the proposed site to attend tonight.
Also my napkin math was wrong. There's closer to 4,000 homes (1,750 in baker ranch, 675 in the Meadows, 500+ in Serrano Summit), so that's roughly $40M of property tax per year.
Also my napkin math was wrong. There's closer to 4,000 homes (1,750 in baker ranch, 675 in the Meadows, 500+ in Serrano Summit), so that's roughly $40M of property tax per year.
markrealty
New member
As far as I heard from the facility department of SVUSD, the guy's name was Doug, he kept saying they were preparing paperwork and the intention was to build the school. And that will somewhat depend on the expansion of Foothill Ranch Elementary this summer. How come this is happening so fast already? I have been trying to call them but no one ever picked up the phone again after my first convo with him.
someguy
Active member
SVUSD officially declined the land offer last night. No school. 125% developer fees will be paid by TB to SVUSD.
Despite complaints from the public that elementary classes are too full, the district is convinced their existing schools are well below capacity, enrollment will decline, and the cost of building a new school here is both prohibitive and unjustifiable.
Had anyone looked at these factors alone 4 years ago, it would be obvious that a school would never be built at The Meadows. It seems like Bones and others were on to this well before now. I suspect Toll Brothers knew exactly what they were doing when they proposed the school site in the first place. It was just a place holder to drive marketing and obscure their intention of building high density residential at that location. It looks like they were so sure the school would not succeed, that they already dug out the ground for the parking garage (on top of which their high density product will sit) a year ago. That giant hole was one of the objections the California Department of Education had when they said "it was one of the worst school sites they had ever seen" and was not something SVUSD expected either. Well done Toll. You duped your buyers.
Despite complaints from the public that elementary classes are too full, the district is convinced their existing schools are well below capacity, enrollment will decline, and the cost of building a new school here is both prohibitive and unjustifiable.
Had anyone looked at these factors alone 4 years ago, it would be obvious that a school would never be built at The Meadows. It seems like Bones and others were on to this well before now. I suspect Toll Brothers knew exactly what they were doing when they proposed the school site in the first place. It was just a place holder to drive marketing and obscure their intention of building high density residential at that location. It looks like they were so sure the school would not succeed, that they already dug out the ground for the parking garage (on top of which their high density product will sit) a year ago. That giant hole was one of the objections the California Department of Education had when they said "it was one of the worst school sites they had ever seen" and was not something SVUSD expected either. Well done Toll. You duped your buyers.
iacrenter
Well-known member
More like Tustin Legacy vs TUSD. Years of collecting MR but no school for local residents. Luckily, residents and city had enough and forced TUSD into opening and building more schools.
www.ocregister.com
City, TUSD approve $78M plan for Tustin Legacy schools
TUSTIN – The city and Tustin Unified approved a $78 million plan to build a middle and high school while also ensuring Heritage Elementary will welcome its first students in fall 2016. The ar…
www.ocregister.com
sleepy5136
Well-known member
Probably because a “good” school isn’t an ultimate determiner of whether a kid can be successful in life or not. It sets them up for future success, but I would argue parenting is a bigger role to that than school.
So with that understanding, why does it matter if the school is not ranked 9/10 or 10/10? Sure, full classrooms doesn’t give a “good” learning experience compared to a smaller class, but it’s also not the end of the world.
I get your post isn’t related to this but it might give light into why majority of parents in LF doesn’t want to push too much for a new school. Don’t know how it’s funded but I can tell you no one in LF wants to pay MR. People live in LF and not Irvine for exactly that reason.
I’m sorry, someguy. It was never going to happen and I have said as much here over the years.
Re: the comment above. Zero parents push for new schools except those who live in newly developed neighborhoods - it has nothing to do with whether they are LF people or Tustin people or Irvine people. The main difference is in Irvine, the people don’t have to opine. The developers and the city work it out amongst themselves and new schools are built. When you leave it up to the people, the vast majority aka the ones who won’t directly benefit from a new school won’t fight for it.
Re: the comment above. Zero parents push for new schools except those who live in newly developed neighborhoods - it has nothing to do with whether they are LF people or Tustin people or Irvine people. The main difference is in Irvine, the people don’t have to opine. The developers and the city work it out amongst themselves and new schools are built. When you leave it up to the people, the vast majority aka the ones who won’t directly benefit from a new school won’t fight for it.
someguy
Active member
Since you asked...
1) It's not a choice of a 9/10 or 10/10 school. Lake Forest Elementary, the school SVUSD assigned The Meadows to, is a 5/10 per GreatSchools.org
2) Lake Forest Elementary is roughly a 15 minute drive from The Meadows. Potentially 4 times per weekday depending on the family's situation. There are more many productive uses of time than driving an hour per day for school pickup/drop-off.
3) I agree class size isn't the single determining factor in education, but it does make a difference, especially when kids are young. 30 children in a classroom with one teacher can quickly turn to chaos and interfere with learning. It can be miserable for the teacher as well, which can deter desirable teachers. It's also indicative of how the school/district is managing it's resources and how much resources they have. Larger class size suggest they're short on resources or allocating them poorly.
4) Parents generally want to give their kids the best start possible. The best schools, the most quality time together, and so on.
A new school in the neighborhood is a step towards #4 and is attractive to families who place a high value on devoting resources to help their children excel. Irvine Company / City of Irvine recognizes this. The builders at Tustin Legacy / City of Tustin recognized this. Even TB recognizes this, which is probably why they pulled this marketing stunt. But these are apparently not priorities to SVUSD or Lake Forest.
sleepy5136
Well-known member
I do not disagree with any of your points. But all of what you said doesn’t defeat the fact that parenting has more of an influence than school. Reason being is you only can read one way and 1+1 gives you one answer and not many.
With that said, I wouldn’t mind having a better school. I mean who doesn’t? But at the same time the question always comes down to who is paying. I’m already being taxed everyday. Do I want to get taxed even more for a “better” school? Not really. We aren’t talking about the current school system in LF being like Compton.
Just musing here... if we all (mostly) agree that parents play a huge role in the snowflake-ness of kids then wouldn't the deep(er)-pocket, values-education-more buyers/rentersof the new TB community help raise the Great School score of LF elem? You can sort of see it in some of the popular school choice schools among this group in LF. If charter schools are palatable, Oxford also gets high ratings.
anteaterMD
Member
Still a win-win in my book.
No MR translates to increased spending power to fund a child's needs (eg, increased time spent with parent-to-child, extracurricular activities, tutor/caregiver services, private education, etc).
As bones mentioned, Oxford is a great K-8 school located nearby.
At the end of the day, kids growing up in this community will be more than fine.
No MR translates to increased spending power to fund a child's needs (eg, increased time spent with parent-to-child, extracurricular activities, tutor/caregiver services, private education, etc).
As bones mentioned, Oxford is a great K-8 school located nearby.
At the end of the day, kids growing up in this community will be more than fine.
sgip
Well-known member
If you're living in some of the recently closed homes, are you seeing any genuine increases in school aged children? I know the first phase had a vast number of speculative buyers now looking to flip their way out, which in the short run reduces the number of kids in these properties. Any rentals are going to be $7-$10k per month and that's not really a family friendly rent level. If there is a relatively low K-12 newbie count, there doesn't really seem to be an incentive by SBVUSD to build a new school.
anteaterMD
Member
From what I’ve seen so far, the owners (or renters?) of the other properties tend to be on the younger side. I’ll have to meet more neighbors prior to giving an accurate determination. Renter or not, it’s all the same to me; we’re all humans going through life.
As for our family, I’m hoping to have a couple kids in the near future.
CalBears96
Well-known member
I'm sorry, but did you say $7k-$10k a month for rent? Surely, you jest.
El Toro High is also a sports powerhouse. A smart Asian kid with 4 years of sports and high gpa/scores from ETHS will likely do better in admissions than a comparable Irvine USD grad.
The admissions data doesn’t bear this out. But it is a good narrative - one that is often told here and elsewhere.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Is El Toro really sports powerhouse? Which sports?
Because they suck in a few that I know of.
Because they suck in a few that I know of.