The Grove - Costa Mesa

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
freedomcm said:
Irvine2Irvine said:
East Costa Mesa is very nice, but also costs more than most of Irvine.  The rest of Costa Mesa is hit and miss.  I think these houses are in a middle of an OK old neighborhood.  There are many areas in Costa Mesa that is hard to distinguish from Santa Ana.
Hah, love the SA blurb.  where did you see those stats?
The worst neighborhood in CM has crime rates pretty close to BK's neighborhood. 
This particular neighborhood has crime similar to the older neighborhoods of Irvine. 
There are some apartments north of this (close to Baker), but they are families.  The rest of this neighborhood is middle/upper middle class and very, very stable.  Lots of 20 year owners.
The big problem is the schools.  No getting around it.  You would have to do private high school.
I didn't say anything about the crime rate of CM vs Santa Ana.  I was talking about the old neighborhoods that looks like it's from Santa Ana.  How about the neig Costa Mesa neighborhoods north of South Coast Plaza?  It definitely is not nice as the areas south of 405.
 
North of South Coast Plaza isn't Costa Mesa.  Its "South Coast Metro" -- its technically Santa Ana. 

We did a driveby of this area on sunday, the outsides of the homes are hideously ugly (to me and my bf, if all new homes look like this then I guess some of you like them - WEIRDOS).    The neighborhood is a nice older neighborhood with nicely kept homes that obviously have long term owners.    Its right behind tewinkle park too which is nice - we used to have birthday parties there.    It is ALSO backing the livestock area of the fair and the rodeo - I suspect that during the summer you mgiht get  animal smells.    I don't personally mind that much (its temporary and they keep it clean) but some people find the smells more offensive.  I also suspect you might get Fair-ride noise during the summer too - I mean its not right smack next to it but it isn't far either.  I suppose its still better than living by disneyland or angel's stadium which is pretty much year round noise.  On the upside the farmers market is there every thursday and the OCmarketplace on the weekend.

I don't understand the school thing honestly.  What are those ratings? Test scores?    I dunno.  In my mind it seems like the better schools just have better educated , higher income parents and more money for classes that were cut at a lot of other schools (languages, arts, advanced classes, etc).    I can supply the better educated higher income parenting myself, and the extra 150k dollars goes a long way towards paying for music and art lessons (both basic drawing skills and basic music skills improve your brain - attention to detail and mathmatics) and sports if you swing that way, or you could put the 150k into savings or investments and totally pay for your kids college education wiht it.    Sure maybe going to 'better' schools gets you into 'better colleges' -- but you could send your kid to one of our excellent UC schools and have them graduate with a bachelor's degree and NO student debt or you could send them to a private school and have them graduate with a bachelor's degree and 200,000 dollars in student debt.

It just looks like fear to me - if your kid goes to a school with lower average test scores, something BAD might happen to them, like ________________________________________.    My cousins and my Ex went to a famously well ranked high school somewhere around Chicago, where almost all the parents are very well to do (cousin's are, ex is not).  They have (or had anyway) a tremendously high suicide rate and serious bullying issues but spectacular test scores.    My cousins now both live at home and do not have careers, one went to an expensive private and for-profit college, one is too emotionally delicate to leave the house.  My ex is making 10 dollars an hour doing office work.    My sister went to Edison (which is an ok but not great school I think?) and graduated with straight As in engineering from UCLA.  Don't let the fear overwhelm your choices.  I get that people love the irvine communities, the amenties, the feeling of safety, etc etc.  Those are all fine reasons to live there.  I also get that you don't want your kid at a school where there is violence or shootouts or where most of the schools money gets spent on ESL instead of on your kids.  And I don't know anything about the high school in costa mesa in particular but in general FEAR NOT MY FRIENDS! ALL IS NOT LOST!  YOUR CHILD'S SUCCESS IN LIFE DEPENDS VERY LITTLE ON WHAT HIGH SCHOOL THEY WENT TO!
 
Talyssa, your examples are proof that a good student will do good no matter what school he/she goes to and visa versa.
However, it will not hurt to send a good student to a "good" school.  One example, a smart student going to a "good" school will have many more honor and AP classes to take.  A grade of "A" in honor classes will give her 5.0 towards GPA instead of 4.0.  This make a HUGE difference when competing for an admission at a competitive college.  Many kids will have a 4.5 GPA when applying to colleges.  The AP classes will give her college credit.  Some of the "good" schools have so many AP classes, a smart student will enter college as sophomore. 
Maybe your kid is very smart and don't need any help but my kids definitely need all the help they can get.
Like you stated, some schools put their efforts in ESL rather than Honors and AP classes.  The schools actually get extra money for the "disadvantaged" students from the state.  They determine the disadvantaged students by whether they are getting free lunch or partially paid lunch according to income.  So you really can't blame those schools for concentrating the effort for classes like ESL and shops.  It's just what the demographic calls for.

By the way, Edison High in Huntington Beach is a VERY good school.  It has been a very good school for a long time.  Even when I went to high school in Garden Grove, we knew that Edison was one of the top schools in the area.

Here's a map of schools in the area.http://schoolperformancemaps.com/ca/#33.694066,-117.883987,11,1


 
I2I - At a lot of schools students can enter as a sophomore, but at the Ivy/similar level, having an AP just means you are placed in a harder class.
 
LAtoOC said:
I2I - At a lot of schools students can enter as a sophomore, but at the Ivy/similar level, having an AP just means you are placed in a harder class.

Of course.  But more AP classes available, the better your chance of entering as a sophomore.

I don't get your second reasoning about Ivy/similar level.  Are you inferring that the kids should not take AP classes so they don't have to take a harder class?  Wouldn't taking AP classes and getting credit give the OPTION of taking the harder class right away instead of taking an easier class first than the harder class?


 
A student challenging him/herself is always a good idea, but I do worry about AP-overload. I do alumni interviews and too often I see a student with 4.ultra GPA and nothing else. Do you play sports? Music? Model UN? Hobbies? Anything?
 
I actually don't want my kids to be over achievers... if they can pull of 3.0+, that's fine with me.

They can go to junior college and then transfer to a UC or whatever. I'm not sure if the job world is the same but your college degree really only counts for the 1st or 2nd job... after that... it's a lot of who and what you know more than where you went.

However... I would like my kids to go to a high school where they don't have to worry about gang violence or falling in with the wrong crowd. While I know that can happen anywhere.. you can certainly lower the odds. And in a school where most of the students are doing well academically... that helps set the tone for my kids (just as long as it's not TOO academic... which it tends to be in Irvine).

Talyssa has graphrixitis... if she ever plans to have kids... she will see it's not as easy as "It's not just the schools!".
 
LAtoOC said:
A student challenging him/herself is always a good idea, but I do worry about AP-overload. I do alumni interviews and too often I see a student with 4.ultra GPA and nothing else. Do you play sports? Music? Model UN? Hobbies? Anything?

The balance is very important.  In most school, there are extracurricular activities available.  In most communities, there are extracurricular activities available.  But it's really up to the students and parents to make the balance work.  Some 4.ultra GPA student will have none just like some 2.0 GPA students will have none.  Some 4.ultra GPA students will have many. 
But it's true that 4.ultra GPA student will have a tough time doing a LOT of extracurricular activities.  The ones I know from Boy Scout usually stick to a couple of extra curricular activities.  These are boys who also end up as Eagle Scout (for what it's worth), so they do manage their time very wisely.

The main point I am making is that there really isn't much of a disadvantage to sending a kid to a "good" school.  You are just providing more opportunities for academics, sports, music, art, etc.  How the kid/parent takes that opportunity to his/her advantage is strictly up to the individual.
 
irvinehomeowner said:
I actually don't want my kids to be over achievers... if they can pull of 3.0+, that's fine with me.

They can go to junior college and then transfer to a UC or whatever. I'm not sure if the job world is the same but your college degree really only counts for the 1st or 2nd job... after that... it's a lot of who and what you know more than where you went.

However... I would like my kids to go to a high school where they don't have to worry about gang violence or falling in with the wrong crowd. While I know that can happen anywhere.. you can certainly lower the odds. And in a school where most of the students are doing well academically... that helps set the tone for my kids (just as long as it's not TOO academic... which it tends to be in Irvine).

Talyssa has graphrixitis... if she ever plans to have kids... she will see it's not as easy as "It's not just the schools!".

3.0 is actually kind of ...bad grades these days.  School is EASY and grade inflation is rampant.  I was a terrible freaking student in high school (used to copy AP physics and calc homework at lunch from other people) and I still turned out better grades than that.    Also the 5.0 GPA is silly, most kids can't pull a 5.0 because AP classes ARE a tiny bit harder.  AS they should be.  Whatever happend to  B's being good grades?  Crazy ass parents who scream and moan when their baby can't get enough extra credit for an A.     

As for starting as a Sophmore - I was (as I'm sure you guessed) in with the AP kids, I knew plenty  of people who went into college with tons of units.  Guess what? It does VERY little for your ability to graduate because units are not a problem for graduating.  I don't know anyone who went to college wiht me or my sister's  friends who did not have MORE than enough units to graduate -- in fact, most of us (myself included) had to go to the school and petition to be allowed to continue because we had too many units.    Most schools give you little if no actual credit for your AP classes - I mean yeah you get units, but they don't let you skip any prerequisites.    My friend and I both got a 5 on the AP english test (does it still score 1-5?) and I was able to skip a 'general education' writing class but NOT skip my 6 'fullfills the essay requirement' classes, so it saved me at best 1 class and at worst it took away the option of completeing an easy A class (which I wouldn't have taken becuase I actually LIKED college being a little challenging) -  My friend wasn't allowed to skip anything. She got 4 'units' and still had to take the class.    Getting a 5 on the AP calc class let you skip 1 math class, but it left you twiddling your thumbs the first quarter because they didn't offer the second level class until 2nd quarter.  Colleges make money when your kid goes there - they are not all that invested in helping your kid go there for LESS time. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for AP classes, I think it counts towards getting into colelge SOMEWHAT, but I think if your kids just take 2-3 during their jr and sr year and then have OTHER activities it probably looks just as good, and it wil lmake them better life achievers.    Granted I am not an admissions officer, but I imagine that they get millions of the same old same old "this kid took eleventy billion AP classes, and has a 4.9 gpa!"      And I'd rather send my kid to music, art, sports classes wiht the extra 200,000 dollars.  I'm not saying its stupid to want your kid to go to a 'better' school, I'm just saying that I think if you do the financial math you might be REALLY overvalueing it.    We have  excellent opportunities for opera, symphony, dance and various other performances an hour north of us in LA.  There are artists and art teachers all over orange county and LA, with opportunities to delve deeper into certain mediums or forms than you do in school and tons of galleries and museums.

IF you have the money for both a house in irvine and all that, then awesome, do it.  If you don't, how much is the  missed opportunities for those classes worth to you vs how much the schools are worth?    I don't know the equation for that.  But I think I'd rather jet around seeing special exibits and performances (there is a Ring Cycle the met is putting on that is supposed to be amazing, and a Dali exibit in Atlanta that looks excellent - and there are always dance performances in NY and SF that I am sorry to miss)

PLUS the extra bonus is that for the first 15 years your kids wont' appreciate any of these cultural experiences at all, so you can drop them with grandma and grandpa and go yourself.  WOO!

I'm sure I think raising kids is easier than people that have them, but I ALSO know that its not rocket science - Its not any kind of science becuase its totally unpredicatable and unmeasurable how kids will turn out as adults, no matter what you do with them.  Other than being generally middle class (in my bf's case upper middle class)  my bf and I had totally different childhood experiences in every way, and aside from little things we are unbelievably similar.  My sister and I share genes and basic parenting (although it does change from child to child even within the family) and we aren't much alike at all.  She had tutoring all through elementary and middle school because she was struggling, then went to high school and turned on the A student switch.    so really - should you spend THAT much extra money on it? If you can find a school that's decent enough and not unsafe, wouldn't that be fine?  I mean heck, you can buy a nice house in the Edison school district for 700, without mello roos and with a larger lot that includes a real driveway and stuff.  and its a lot less hot down there.    I get the Irvine thing, I do. I just don't get the schools thing - I doubt they are NEARLY as valuable as people seem to think when they say things that make it sound like only Irvine schools will do.  And honestly... i kinda doubt that you guys that say the stuff about schools value it quite so much as well.  If there was an area that somehow had the super desirable irvine brand and atmosphere and location and all the things IHO likes about Irvine and the schools were crap, you's probably still want to live there and you'd send your kids to private school.  I mean, *I* want to live in irvine off and on -  I just don't want to pay a premium for it and I like other areas a lot as well.

Which reminds me actually ...  how many people on this forum grew up in OC vs moved here as adults?  I feel like the people who grew up in OC don't tend to have quite the fear of crime here that other people do but I don't know if that is just a general feeling or just because the only people I know who grew up here grew up in brea and gg and huntington beach/fountain valley and stuff.  And whatever you may think about those areas now we used to have a skinhead and an asian gang problem (did they fight each other I wonder? I was young at the time) and its quite cleaned up now...  I mean heck, the part of harbor that runs through costa mesa used to be prostitute lane but those days are long gone.  So I just find it strange that people feel like a lot of areas outside of south county are not safe enough.  Its certainly safer now than it used to be and I still managed to make it all the way to adult hood without getting shot by skinheads or being mistaken for some vietnamese gangbangers girlfriend.
 
I think you or who you have been talking to are putting too much emphasis into Irvine schools.  Irvine schools are very good, but there are a lot of other schools that are very good in OC.  As I have posted many times in TI, you don't have to live in Irvine to attend a good school!!  Tustin Ranch, Huntington Beach, Yorba Linda, Fullerton, Anaheim Hills and many other communities have Excellent schools.  Irvine is just one of these.  Actually, the top performing school in OC is Oxford in Anaheim and Troy in Fullerton.

The education contributes a only part of a price premium for Irvine.  Others are proximity to work, safety, planned community, clean, parks, etc.  If someone is telling you that the premium for Irvine is strictly education, then that person is basically ignorant.

You can also buy a nice house with a real driveway and no mello roos in Irvine for $700K as you can in Edison school district in Huntington Beach.  For as long as I can remember, the price in Huntington Beach has been a little higher than Irvine when you compare apples to apples, like age of the house and size of the house.  There's big premium for Huntington Beach for being close to the ocean and the great weather.  I can tell you that HB is great city, since I work in HB and have many coworkers and friends who live in HB.

 
However... I would like my kids to go to a high school where they don't have to worry about gang violence or falling in with the wrong crowd. While I know that can happen anywhere.. you can certainly lower the odds. And in a school where most of the students are doing well academically... that helps set the tone for my kids (just as long as it's not TOO academic... which it tends to be in Irvine).

IHO,

As we all know, there is no comparison between CM and Irvine in terms of crime and schools. However,  this and your comment about crime in that area of CM and others, I believe that you really are over paranoid. What you don't understand about CM is that we have a higher percentage of people living at, near or below poverty and many of them are Hispanic immigrants. However, we also have a high percentage of highly educated upper middle class residents and a solid working class middle.

I don't see how you can possibly be envisioning that your kids would be subjected to gang violence at Costa Mesa or Estancia High or that you are somehow going to get carjacked or mugged over here. My next door neighbor is a sophomore at Estancia. His parents sent him to private up until HS. He is in all AP classes earning straight A's, plays on the water polo team and is a competitive skier AND he associates with other kids like him AND he's not being stabbed or shot at school.

Violent crime is 2.27 per 1000 in CM. Am I fearful? No. The violent crime is largely poor on poor. We haven't even had a single property crime in my pocket here in the "bad" part. Just on the other side of 19th there is a large concentration of multi family housing and a guy was beaten and robbed by gang members walking down Center St late at night a few weeks back. I wouldn't have any reason to be walking along streets like those, especially late at night. I wouldn't walk down any major streets by myself late at night here OR Irvine.

At 10:00 pm I walk my dog all over my neighborhood and I have zero fear. At 10:00 pm I go into Albertson's and have zero fear. At 9:30 pm I go into CVS and have zero fear.

It really bugs me that because you are too fearful to venture over here and thus don't have any first hand experience that you go and project those unfounded fears on everyone. You will read the violent crime stats and conclude that CM is a dangerous city and not have a clue that for the average resident going about their day to day life there is very little danger. What do you do in Irvine that you would not be able to do here because doing so here greatly increases your chances of being a crime victim?
 
steppingup said:
IHO,

As we all know, there is no comparison between CM and Irvine in terms of crime and schools. However,  this and your comment about crime in that area of CM and others, I believe that you really are over paranoid. What you don't understand about CM is that we have a higher percentage of people living at, near or below poverty and many of them are Hispanic immigrants. However, we also have a high percentage of highly educated upper middle class residents and a solid working class middle.

I don't see how you can possibly be envisioning that your kids would be subjected to gang violence at Costa Mesa or Estancia High or that you are somehow going to get carjacked or mugged over here. My next door neighbor is a sophomore at Estancia. His parents sent him to private up until HS. He is in all AP classes earning straight A's, plays on the water polo team and is a competitive skier AND he associates with other kids like him AND he's not being stabbed or shot at school.

Violent crime is 2.27 per 1000 in CM. Am I fearful? No. The violent crime is largely poor on poor. We haven't even had a single property crime in my pocket here in the "bad" part. Just on the other side of 19th there is a large concentration of multi family housing and a guy was beaten and robbed by gang members walking down Center St late at night a few weeks back. I wouldn't have any reason to be walking along streets like those, especially late at night. I wouldn't walk down any major streets by myself late at night here OR Irvine.

At 10:00 pm I walk my dog all over my neighborhood and I have zero fear. At 10:00 pm I go into Albertson's and have zero fear. At 9:30 pm I go into CVS and have zero fear.

It really bugs me that because you are too fearful to venture over here and thus don't have any first hand experience that you go and project those unfounded fears on everyone. You will read the violent crime stats and conclude that CM is a dangerous city and not have a clue that for the average resident going about their day to day life there is very little danger. What do you do in Irvine that you would not be able to do here because doing so here greatly increases your chances of being a crime victim?
First off... I was talking about my preference in general in response to Talyssa... not referring to Costa Mesa in specifically.

Secondly... I've owned a business in Costa Mesa for 5 years and have been there until 2am in the morning and while I know that I'm relatively safe... I've seen quite a few incidents that were of the not child friendly variety.

An adult walking their dog in a neighborhood at 10pm isn't a very good comparison to a child going to a school and being subject to things that distract them from academics (and like I said... that can happen anywhere).

My point wasn't about Costa Mesa, but what parents like myself (not just those who live in Irvine) feel about why they favor safety and quality of education when picking a school (or a place to live). I went to school in the 'hood, I turned out okay (to steal a graph argument) but that doesn't mean I would like to send my kids to a school in the hood.

How you think I'm projecting fears on everyone seems to be a bit overstated... that is my opinion and I don't think I have that much sway with people who don't ALREADY feel that way.

One other thing... do you have kids? I always find there is a difference in perspective between people who have kids and people who don't. While they always say that they don't need kids to imagine how we feel... every parent knows that having kids changes your opinions quite quickly. Heck... I used to think I was going to be an educational taskmaster pushing my kids to be in college by age 10... instead I'm complaining about how much homework 1st graders get. It all changes and while I understand what you are saying... I don't think you totally understand what I was saying.

Would I live in Costa Mesa? Probably... if I didn't have kids or maybe if my wife wanted to live there... I've look around there a few times because of its central location and lower prices (although the newer players are not that much lower in Irvine). I've never said CM is a dangerous city and I agree that the average citizen should be fine... but it's all relative. Do you think Santa is just as safe as CM? Or Compton... or Watts? Each has a different degree and people decide what they can deal with based on what their life is about... yours is fine in CM (although I have read that you had doubts)... others are fine in CM... but mine is not.

P.S. Nothing ever happened to my business in my time in Costa Mesa, the person I sold it to moved it 3 blocks south and it was burglarized 3 months later. Was I lucky? Did I have that BK/Lane knowlege of how to carry myself (how does one carry his business) so that no one wanted to rob it? And yes... recently the swimming supplies place in Crossroads was robbed too... so Irvine is not immune. It happens... but if you could reduce those odds from 2.27 to 0.7... wouldn't you? And quite frankly, there is lot more characterizing of Irvine going on over at OCR than there is of other places from here... I don't see you questioning them.
 
So almost 2 years later and they still haven't sold through?

Nice flooplans, SFR, cheap prices, central location... what is the difference? Is it really "the schools" (or whatever PatStar calls it)?
 
I remember this development. Did they ever lower their price point?

Not a very good location for the schools, but the neighborhood isn't unsafe.
 
Back
Top