Should she stay or should she go?

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Mazy_IHB

Mazy_IHB

New member
Hi,



We are working with an agent to buy. IR has a recent post on ?Negotiating for real estate? and while very helpful, since this is our first experience, I appreciate your opinion on whether we should keep our agent or let her go (she is a friend of a friend, and a real estate broker/appraiser). As a brief background, we know exactly what we want and we are doing our search ourselves and just send her the address of the properties we feel we may be interested to tour. A couple of times, she was busy and we just went ahead and contacted the seller?s agent and went and saw the properties ourselves, so the main reason we are working with her is the ?hope? that she can cut a nice deal for us at the time of negotiating. Here is the ?problem?:



I constantly feel that she is not aggressive enough. On occasions while seeing a property, the seller?s agent arrives and she often joins the seller?s agent in praising the property. Once I was pissed off and tried to point out a few negative points of the place as well, but she shushed me and kept going.



Well, I thought she was just trying to be friendly and I consoled myself thinking that the lion within her will wake up and roar at time of negotiation and making an offer, but it seems I was wrong there. We decided to make an offer on a property in Oak Creek, and the offer we came up with (based on our own perceived value) was very close to (and slightly below) what she came up based on the recent comps in the neighborhood. The seller?s agent countered us in an email basically saying that she doesn't agree with our comps and instead she picked the comps from Quail Hills and a property in Oak Creek sold almost 9 months ago.



Now my field is medicine and I don't know much about real estate, but it seems outrageous to me to pick comps from Quail Hills (a totally different neighborhood), or an old Oak Creek transaction (the last time I checked, this was a "declining market"; please enlighten me if things have changed). So I pointed out these plus other negatives (being next to a big street, etc) in an email to her. She ignored all, and just emailed the seller?s agent our offer and she said they are not interested.



So I would like to know if this is the norm in real estate negotiation. I mean, for example, when buying a car, I engage the dealer and always negotiate a price way below invoice, but are real estate transactions that different, and there is no room for negotiating based on negative issues? If a seller?s agent do cherry-picking for her comps, should we just turn our head away and move on (or agree), or try to show her that she is wrong? Is it just a waste of time to engage the seller?s agents? Am I wrong to expect my agent to do this?



Please share your opinion before I make a decision.



Thanks!
 
It does not sound like your real estate agent/friend is meeting your needs or expectations.

I think your expectations are resonable and accurate.

My advice is to nicely let your agent go, (fire them), and contact IrvineRealtor who is a blogger here. From what I can tell he will listen to what you want and be as agressive as you want for negotiations. He seems to able to adjust to his client's wants and needs and does not seem to bring his own agenda or ego to the transaction and he specializes in Irvine.
 
Any comp older than 3 months is basically useless and and Appraiser will not usually use them.

If a comp is used in a different neighborhood because there are not recent sold comparables in that neighborhood then they need to be adjusted up or down depending on if it is a nicer or less desirable neighborhood.
 
[quote author="Mazy" date=1241828585]Hi,



We are working with an agent to buy. IR has a recent post on ?Negotiating for real estate? and while very helpful, since this is our first experience, I appreciate your opinion on whether we should keep our agent or let her go (she is a friend of a friend, and a real estate broker/appraiser). As a brief background, we know exactly what we want and we are doing our search ourselves and just send her the address of the properties we feel we may be interested to tour. A couple of times, she was busy and we just went ahead and contacted the seller?s agent and went and saw the properties ourselves, so the main reason we are working with her is the ?hope? that she can cut a nice deal for us at the time of negotiating. Here is the ?problem?:



I constantly feel that she is not aggressive enough. On occasions while seeing a property, the seller?s agent arrives and she often joins the seller?s agent in praising the property. Once I was pissed off and tried to point out a few negative points of the place as well, but she shushed me and kept going.



Well, I thought she was just trying to be friendly and I consoled myself thinking that the lion within her will wake up and roar at time of negotiation and making an offer, but it seems I was wrong there. We decided to make an offer on a property in Oak Creek, and the offer we came up with (based on our own perceived value) was very close to (and slightly below) what she came up based on the recent comps in the neighborhood. The seller?s agent countered us in an email basically saying that she doesn't agree with our comps and instead she picked the comps from Quail Hills and a property in Oak Creek sold almost 9 months ago.



Now my field is medicine and I don't know much about real estate, but it seems outrageous to me to pick comps from Quail Hills (a totally different neighborhood), or an old Oak Creek transaction (the last time I checked, this was a "declining market"; please enlighten me if things have changed). So I pointed out these plus other negatives (being next to a big street, etc) in an email to her. She ignored all, and just emailed the seller?s agent our offer and she said they are not interested.



So I would like to know if this is the norm in real estate negotiation. I mean, for example, when buying a car, I engage the dealer and always negotiate a price way below invoice, but are real estate transactions that different, and there is no room for negotiating based on negative issues? If a seller?s agent do cherry-picking for her comps, should we just turn our head away and move on (or agree), or try to show her that she is wrong? Is it just a waste of time to engage the seller?s agents? Am I wrong to expect my agent to do this?



Please share your opinion before I make a decision.



Thanks!</blockquote>
As Awgee stated, sounds like you agent is not meeting your expectations. Time to cut bait and get yourself another agent, especially one who isn't drinking the kool-aid and can be a good advocate for you. DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT have the seller's agent represent you! I would definitely not be using comps older than 1-2 months and I'd probably recommend that you discount those comps somewhat.



Also, since you guys are doing a lot of the legwork in terms of property searches you next agent should be more than willing to contribute some of their commission towards your escrow since you are reducing their workload.
 
Comps are nice but in a real negotiation, all that matters is how much you are willing to pay and how much the seller is willing to let go. Stand firm on your offer, that is under your control, but don't expect the seller to give it to you at that price - he may or he may not, it is just not under your control. If you really want the house, there is nothing wrong with offering more until you get the house - there is no law that says you can only offer at or below comps. Similarly, if the seller really need to get rid of the house and he has no other better offers, he might just agree to your offer.



I don't think the agent is the main problem here. You may have underestimated how hard it is to buy in this supposedly declining market. Once you show your hand by making an offer, don't expect the seller to jump on it. Maybe this IS the dream house for you, why should the seller lower their price? Being more aggressive may not help, it may actually signal to the seller that you desparately want the house!
 
<em>Just to let you know... I'm bringing you all with me to my next listing appointment. Thank you.</em>



Mazy, if you decide to take a new direction, I have sent a PM with my contact info.

If not, I won't spam you.



I would still bring up the question of <strong>why is now the best time </strong>for you to make a purchase?

(You may have a compelling reason, so please don't think that I'm merely making a snide remark.)



Thank you again,

-IR2
 
[quote author="cl1" date=1241830344]Comps are nice but in a real negotiation, all that matters is how much you are willing to pay and how much the seller is willing to let go. </blockquote>




This is only true if you are paying cash, not financing the transaction at all.



If you need a mortgage, the purchase will have to appraise at or higher than your offer, or you will have to bring more cash.



9 month old comps? what a joke!



Try 1 month old comps, and discount 10%.



(ps, I also agree it is time to dump the agent)
 
[quote author="freedomCM" date=1241831039][quote author="cl1" date=1241830344]Comps are nice but in a real negotiation, all that matters is how much you are willing to pay and how much the seller is willing to let go. </blockquote>




This is only true if you are paying cash, not financing the transaction at all.



If you need a mortgage, the purchase will have to appraise at or higher than your offer, or you will have to bring more cash.



9 month old comps? what a joke!



Try 1 month old comps, and discount 10%.



(ps, I also agree it is time to dump the agent)</blockquote>
Exactly, no appraiser in his right mind would even think about using even a 6-month old comp in this market. I agree on that 1-2 month comp with a discount. Please do not chase the market up, let the price of the home come to you!
 
First off, yes, definitely dump the agent. What is the use of getting a discount back from the agent if you never get an accepted offer?



I agree with cl1. Do your research (recent comps, personal valuations) and establish your price range. If this is your dream house, add a bit of a markup to account for that. Even after that, if your offer is not accepted, move on. I think some Realtor once said to me that similar houses always appear within 2-3 months in this crazy market.



That being said, we are in a similar situation. We know the areas and type of houses we are interested in and only need assistance with running recent comps, submitting offers and an occasional showing (if the selling agent does not have open houses).



My question is if it is reasonable to expect my agent to provide me a discount? We are doing a majority of the work but how flexible would agents be in our case? I know there are 1% agents out there (along with Redfin folks) but is this a case where you "get what you pay for"?
 
I double, no triple what USC said about NOT using the seller's agent and I say this from experience. Awful, awful, awful thing to do.
 
I would add one more benefit of using a great buyer agent (like IR2)-- they may bring a property to your attention that you had over looked. It is easy to fall in love with a house or area and completely ignore another house that really, truly fits your criteria much better. A great agent will also use your time more efficently. I also "second" NOT using the selling agent....... good luck :)
 
[quote author="freedomCM" date=1241831039][quote author="cl1" date=1241830344]Comps are nice but in a real negotiation, all that matters is how much you are willing to pay and how much the seller is willing to let go. </blockquote>




This is only true if you are paying cash, not financing the transaction at all.



If you need a mortgage, the purchase will have to appraise at or higher than your offer, or you will have to bring more cash.



9 month old comps? what a joke!



Try 1 month old comps, and discount 10%.



(ps, I also agree it is time to dump the agent)</blockquote>


I agree with you, I was just stressing the importance of price in the negotiation, not to say financing is not important.



On the other hand, dumping the agent may not help. Think about buying a car. Let's say I am in a dealership negotiating, what is the best strategy to have the salesman agree to my low price? (1) Be aggressive - repeatly point out the negatives about the car (engine not powerful enough, color is not my favorite, etc); show him spreadsheets showing the national decline in car sales; show him pictures of unsold cars piling up at the port; - go at this again and again. (2) Simply get up and walk out of the door.



I will tell you that many times it is when I reached the door when the car salesman rushed over shouting "don't leave! you get your price!"



Let's imagin that you get a agent that is truely aggressive, everyday he calls the seller and explains all the negatives about the house (it is too close to a busy street; the kitchen needs updating, etc), presents a spreadsheet showing the rapid decline in prices in Irvine, and ends by pleading: "sell the house to us now and you'll never get such a good price!" Do you really think such an aggressive agent will help?
 
[quote author="Bearman81" date=1241832926]First off, yes, definitely dump the agent. What is the use of getting a discount back from the agent if you never get an accepted offer?



I agree with cl1. Do your research (recent comps, personal valuations) and establish your price range. If this is your dream house, add a bit of a markup to account for that. Even after that, if your offer is not accepted, move on. I think some Realtor once said to me that similar houses always appear within 2-3 months in this crazy market.



That being said, we are in a similar situation. We know the areas and type of houses we are interested in and only need assistance with running recent comps, submitting offers and an occasional showing (if the selling agent does not have open houses).



My question is if it is reasonable to expect my agent to provide me a discount? We are doing a majority of the work but how flexible would agents be in our case? I know there are 1% agents out there (along with Redfin folks) but is this a case where you "get what you pay for"?</blockquote>
Yes, it is very reasonable to ask and even expect your agent to contribute you decent share of their commission into your escrow especially if you are doing a lot of the work yourself. It comes down to how much time you are saving the agent and that is valuable.
 
Geez.



Here they go again with not using a seller's agent.

The poster never even hinted they were thinking of entering the transaction without a buyer's agent, so what are you harping on again?



And again, if you enter the transaction without a buyer's agent, you are <strong>NOT</strong> using the seller's agent as your agent. You are not represented. There is a world of difference and every time you mention using the seller's agent or having the seller's agent represent you, you show your ignorance. Stop misrepresenting the concept of representing yourself. You obviously do NOT know what you are talking about.







And no one so far has suggested the original poster represent themselves. They have expressed their lack of experience in real estate transactions and no one is telling them they do not need some help.







Are you going to use every thread to say, "Don't use the seller's agent?"

Saying the same thing over and over makes it no more valid.
 
[quote author="cl1" date=1241834849][quote author="freedomCM" date=1241831039][quote author="cl1" date=1241830344]Comps are nice but in a real negotiation, all that matters is how much you are willing to pay and how much the seller is willing to let go. </blockquote>




This is only true if you are paying cash, not financing the transaction at all.



If you need a mortgage, the purchase will have to appraise at or higher than your offer, or you will have to bring more cash.



9 month old comps? what a joke!



Try 1 month old comps, and discount 10%.



(ps, I also agree it is time to dump the agent)</blockquote>


I agree with you, I was just stressing the importance of price in the negotiation, not to say financing is not important.



On the other hand, dumping the agent may not help. Think about buying a car. Let's say I am in a dealership negotiating, what is the best strategy to have the salesman agree to my low price? (1) Be aggressive - repeatly point out the negatives about the car (engine not powerful enough, color is not my favorite, etc); show him spreadsheets showing the national decline in car sales; show him pictures of unsold cars piling up at the port; - go at this again and again. (2) Simply get up and walk out of the door.



I will tell you that many times it is when I reached the door when the car salesman rushed over shouting "don't leave! you get your price!"



Let's imagin that you get a agent that is truely aggressive, everyday he calls the seller and explains all the negatives about the house (it is too close to a busy street; the kitchen needs updating, etc), presents a spreadsheet showing the rapid decline in prices in Irvine, and ends by pleading: "sell the house to us now and you'll never get such a good price!" Do you really think such an aggressive agent will help?</blockquote>
True, but in this case we can assume that the agent lacks good negotiating skills and really seems like her # 1 goal is to get the transaction done to collect her commission. It's not so much about being aggressive, it about the tact that you take in speaking with the listing agent. Good negotiating skills do make a big difference.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1241835375]Geez.



Here they go again with not using a seller's agent.

The poster never even hinted they were thinking of entering the transaction without a buyer's agent, so what are you harping on again?



And again, if you enter the transaction without a buyer's agent, you are <strong>NOT</strong> using the seller's agent as your agent. You are not represented. There is a world of difference and every time you mention using the seller's agent or having the seller's agent represent you, you show your ignorance. Stop misrepresenting the concept of representing yourself. You obviously do NOT know what you are talking about.







And no one so far has suggested the original poster represent themselves. They have expressed their lack of experience in real estate transactions and no one is telling them they do not need some help.







Are you going to use every thread to say, "Don't use the seller's agent?"</blockquote>
If that was aimed at me I think you read a bit too much into what I wrote. I just said to not use the listing agent to represent the buyer. I never stated that he shouldn't represent himself or that he needed a buyer's agent. Relax Awgee, it's Friday! ;)



And yes, I will keep on saying to never use a seller's agent to represent a buyer. Either get a good buyer's agent or represent yourself.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. I was just on phone with our agent and she claims to be still negotiating with the seller's agent. However, I agree with most of you that we are not going to be happy working with her. I need to discuss it with my wife on what to do with her. But we will probably either let her go and just pay her for the hours she worked so far, or keep her working on the houses we have seen with her so far, and use another agent among those you recommended for future houses we will see (is it alright? I do not want to exploit and waste anyone?s time)...



As for the coments posted:



- Cl1: This is by no means our dream house. As a matter of fact, we didn't really like any of the houses we have seen so far. A few came close, but all had significant negatives (noise, yard too small, too much hardscaping and too many fountains here and there, customizations we don?t like at all and are likely to remove but the seller includes the full cost of them in the asking price regardless, no view but neighbor's wall/bedroom [ok, that could be a positive point;)], no BR downstairs, BRs too small [I think they should call these 0.5 BRs the way we have 0.5 bathrooms], not enough light, way too claustrophic [boy, how many times I felt like playing Wolf3D while touring a house!], perfect waste of 3000+ sqft in non-functional plans, etc) but we decided that if we are not in love with a house, we can still live with a few drawbacks if we know we are getting a very good deal. Rest assured, I will move on from this house (and many others we have seen) with no hesitation and no looking back!



- IrvineRealtor: I have lectured my wife zillion times that we shouldn't rush and wait instead, especially since the market's activity increases in Spring/Summer, but she is fed up with renting. We live in LA for her to finish her fellowship and she has already signed a contract in OC beginning in Summer. Although she will be driving against the traffic, I still don't want her to drive 100 miles a day in SoCal (I, on the other hand, am ok with driving long distances and I keep myself busy listening to NPR, etc). Our residency has taken us from CA to NJ to NY back to CA in the past few years and we never got a chance to have a life. Now we have kids and we really want to settle down and start a normal life. We have no relatives here to help us with our infants and our live-in is not moving with us, so moving is a nightmare (the recent move from New York to Los Angeles nearly killed us). We have thought about it and accepted the fact that we may lose another 10-20% in house value if we buy now, but we are planning to live in the new house for 10-15 years or more. However, that doesn't mean that we are willing to pay the wishful prices some houses on today's market are asking and some (mostly cash-buyers) seem to be paying (forget about 2003 rollbacks - some are asking 2006-7 prices! I hear people worried about TCE in Irvine, but many seem to overlook the soaring levels of Cool Aid contamination in Irvine water). Having said all this, my wife and I have agreed that if we couldn't find the house we liked at the price we considered reasonable we will wait and rent month-to-month until we find the right place.



- USCtrojanman/Steping-up (sorry guys if you go by other nick names; I?m new to the party here): I have heard it from other sources about not using the seller?s agent to represent me. If, however, I do my homework, and don?t sign anything before reading it or having it reviewed by a lawyer, won?t working with the seller?s agent increase the likelihood of making a nice deal given that 6% commission will go just to one agent? I mean, won?t that provide the agent with more incentive to push my offer ahead even if it is low or lower than competing offers? I?m just trying to educate myself here?



- zubs: I may just do that and let her know. Stay tuned for some drama (j/k)!



Thanks again for all the comments and offers to help. I will discuss it with my wife and we will decide shortly.
 
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